Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

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Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:20 pm

Don't worry # FritzchenEK-I. As compensation, Slitherine will double your points! You will be saved :)

You are in a better situation I fell into a vicious circle in the second round and I takes position in the second fifty.
With the current rules, there is no chance to get out of it ...
Trepko wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:14 pm
The real problem here is that as every system in life, it can properly works only if people who are in it correctly run it. Even if devs design the perfect tournament, it will only be another big fail if players in the tournament behave as irresponsible whining raging children. Unfortunately, PzC2 community seems to have a quite large number of this kind of people, at least enough to ruin every attempt of having some fun.
The problem of this tournament is not the rules. The problem is the players themselves.
Of course. Eliminations and banning irresponsible players will be enough, and not allowing them to continue playing as now. It's ridiculous.
The score for such a match should be at least 2000 points as for the complete absence of an opponent.

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Lifever » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:57 am

The smart bet: the frame influences the behaviour of people.

If rules are in place and executed, if everything seems tight & fair - everybody feels respected - people act accordingly.

Following the logic of some players here - if soldiers are in disarray, it has nothing to do with their commander or a lack of regulations and training.
No - if they are out of line, it is just "them" - they should act disciplined all by themselves. And if they don't, you don't train them, you don't switch the staff or change procedure.
You just accept: It can't be helped. Troops are chaotic clusters that do whatever they please.

Trepko
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Trepko » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:37 pm

Of course frame matters (fortunatly !)
But take a look at round 1: around 110 no show among 360 players => 30% disrespectful players. And that had nothing to do with frame (because at that time we weren't aware of the flaws in the rules).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that devs haven't any responsability in this matter: they do, and you can see that I point at the flaws of the tournament in each of my post.
I'm just trying to balance a little bit the blaming here. It is always so convenient and easy to throw all the blaming on "the system/the commander/etc..." because thanks to that, you don't have to think about your own responsability about the situation you're in.

As you perfectly said, frame matters, and that goes both ways. I'm convinced that devs will be more eager to fix rules if they're not being severly insulted as they have been until now.
Finally, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right (I might be, I might be not, no one cares). I'm just trying to keep this thread alive to show the devs that there still are some people who care about the tournament, who only would like to enjoy some pleasant games and who count on them to improve all this.

malic
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by malic » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:24 pm

I'm enjoying the Tournament and so far and I have been lucky in that all three of my opponents have played through to the end. All that is needed in the tournament is some bumps to be smoothed out and we can all enjoy it better. Lets cut them all little slack and let them work it out.

Owi
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Owi » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:08 am

1 round - opponent wasnt showing up - 21/21 days waiting
2. round - over in 7 days - 7/21 played
3. round - opponent shows up after day 18 plays 5 turns and goes inactive - 2/21 days played

sofar 9/63 days played actually the game
i log in since 2 months just to get disappionted
how can this tournament be a fair competition?

Haze0008
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Haze0008 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:05 pm

The ‘devs’ as you call them assume a responsibility of leadership when they organize and solicit a tournament (especially with the time commitment of this one). A primary component of this leadership is a clear, viable and understandable set of rules and proactive communication of how those rules are applied. People are always going to be people. They only accomplish something if there is leadership and organization. I will let my fellow players decide about the lack of leadership and organization in this event. My perspective is that the failing is obvious and the ‘devs’ would serve us all well by letting someone with these skills run the tournament administration going forward.

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:08 pm

Awesome. I'm in the second hundred. I didn't get a compensation for a game that would have won in turn 12 (one city left, 100% chance to win) with the attacking side. The opponent did not make his move. The attacker doesn't get too many points at the beginning, and the win bonus is also lost, so I lost a lot of points.

Awesome tournament with three solid wins and a place in the second hundred. Less and less chance of hitting a normal player. It's just wonderful. I congratulate his optimism to the person who claimed that after 3-4 rounds everything would be leveled out.
Last edited by Dzidek on Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Edmon
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Edmon » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:09 pm

Hey guys,

We are listening to you each round and that has resulted in the rules being clarified, some being changed and even technical things being done to try to ensure fairness.



The vast majority of what is being discussed here is a totally unavoidable problem with unknown tournaments.

So to explain, there are two types of tournament: Known and Unknown. I played in both kinds professionally in MtG back in the day, so I understand them quite well.



A known tournament is the type of tournament the vast majority of people have watched and understand. It is one where all the players are known the the organizer. Usually, the players are screened or go through many qualifying processes before being allowed into the tournament. Everyone plays fully and to the best of their abilities because everyone is already highly invested in the tournament. Those who are just casual, trolls, etc have been filtered out by the qualifying process(es). Dropouts and no-shows are rare or non-existent and happen only in the most extreme of circumstances.

Every professional sport and esport uses exclusively known tournaments for broadcasting, so this is the type of tournament that is most readily understood and expectations are tempered by that.


This tournament is an unknown tournament, with no barrier to entry. That means all you have to do is sign up and you will immediately get a chance to play. Of course, you can sign up then forget all about it and not play at all. Or you can play a little bit and then decide not to play. There is nothing we can do about these things occurring, for that is the nature of the unknown tournament. If you allow "anyone" to have a go, then you are allowing "anyone" to have a go and that includes people who perhaps play 1 round and then decide its not for them and people who don't play at all.


It is impossible to deliver the quality of a known tournament in an unknown tournament, we can only do our best to, over many rounds, remove those that are not playing or that decide to give up. I myself did not get to play the first round because of a no-show. But I would rather we have these kinds of tournaments where anyone can just have a go, than the whole process that comes with a known tournament, which generally keeps the vast majority of people from even trying multiplayer at all.


These are my thoughts and I hope they clarify and help.

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:55 pm

Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:09 pm
This tournament is an unknown tournament, with no barrier to entry. That means all you have to do is sign up and you will immediately get a chance to play. Of course, you can sign up then forget all about it and not play at all. Or you can play a little bit and then decide not to play. There is nothing we can do about these things occurring, for that is the nature of the unknown tournament. If you allow "anyone" to have a go, then you are allowing "anyone" to have a go and that includes people who perhaps play 1 round and then decide its not for them and people who don't play at all.


It is impossible to deliver the quality of a known tournament in an unknown tournament, we can only do our best to, over many rounds, remove those that are not playing or that decide to give up.
I do not agree with that. I already wrote about it: eliminations and banning. Let's skip the elimination at this stage and the reset of points, I do not have to take a good place in this tournament (which is probably not possible anymore), but I am begging you to remove players who do not finish battles. One more opponent that will run away from the match without consequnces, and I'll say enough.
Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:09 pm
I myself did not get to play the first round because of a no-show.
And you received 2000 points for it. I received less for two decisive victory. I leave it to you to judge the fair play of this fact.

Wonderful, now I see that there are people who have not played a single match and are higher in the score than me. Just congratulate them on their happiness.
Last edited by Dzidek on Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PaganCyC
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by PaganCyC » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:17 pm

Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:09 pm
Hey guys,

We are listening to you each round and that has resulted in the rules being clarified, some being changed and even technical things being done to try to ensure fairness.
...
I, for one, appreciate you guys taking the time to make new maps and setup the tournament in the first place. You were under no obligation to do any of that. Never having played multiplayer before, I have been having a blast. Thanks!

Edmon
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Edmon » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:38 pm

Dzidek wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:55 pm
I do not agree with that. I already wrote about it: eliminations and banning. Let's skip the elimination at this stage and the reset of points, I do not have to take a good place in this tournament (which is probably not possible anymore), but I am begging you to remove players who do not finish battles. One more opponent that will run away from the match without consequnces, and I'll say enough.
I said in the post that you are replying to that people that don't play can be removed over time.

There is no way to prevent someone not playing the 1st or 2nd round or to prevent them from stopping playing at any point in an unknown tournament. Your main complaint is about the first two rounds, but how is it possible to ban or eliminate players in an unknown tournament before they've even played a couple of matches?

An unknown tournament like this is to allow everyone to play as many matches as possible with no barriers, it doesn't have eliminations so that casual players can play other casual players at the bottom. That means you can't pre-screen to remove non-players from the first few rounds, as only after that point can you 100% say "this person isn't playing and should be removed".

Your expectations here line up with a known tournament, where we know who is playing and thus we know the vast majority or all of them will play. Plus since mostly everyone plays, those that don't can quickly be removed because they formally forfeit.

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:46 pm

Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:38 pm
I said in the post that you are replying to that people that don't play can be removed over time.
When? I have hope that not after 12 rounds:)
Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:38 pm
There is no way to prevent someone not playing the 1st or 2nd round or to prevent them from stopping playing at any point in an unknown tournament. Your main complaint is about the first two rounds, but how is it possible to ban or eliminate players in an unknown tournament before they've even played a couple of matches?

An unknown tournament like this is to allow everyone to play as many matches as possible with no barriers, it doesn't have eliminations so that casual players can play other casual players at the bottom. That means you can't pre-screen to remove non-players from the first few rounds, as only after that point can you 100% say "this person isn't playing and should be removed".
Why not? Any balck magic force block it?:) Sorry it is not matter if it is unknown or known tournament. Players which cheat (and this is taking away points by not playing) shoould be removed imedaitely after this fact. Otherwise they spoil the game not for one opponent but for several.

I can see that we have a different opinion on this, well, too bad. Your tournament your rules, too bad it's not fair, but it happens. It is a pity that I did not know about them from the beginning.

I have a request, could you describe the compensation algorithm for players whose opponents quit during the match. Because I can't understand it in any way ...

Edmon
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Edmon » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:57 pm

You've moved the goal posts to cheaters, from people who are simply not playing or have decided to stop playing after playing.

Cheaters once detected, will be removed immediately. Some cheating is not apparent until enough odd behavior has been detected over several games, however.

It's not that we have a different opinion on anything, I am simply trying to explain that it's physically impossible to judge a player until either:
1) They are known.
2) They have played at least a couple of games.

There is no way in an unknown tournament to force people to keep playing, if someone decides to just not play after 4 games and you draw them when they decide to stop playing, you will face a no-show. There is no way for us to prevent this.

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:22 pm

Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:57 pm
You've moved the goal posts to cheaters, from people who are simply not playing or have decided to stop playing after playing.

Cheaters once detected, will be removed immediately. Some cheating is not apparent until enough odd behavior has been detected over several games, however.

It's not that we have a different opinion on anything, I am simply trying to explain that it's physically impossible to judge a player until either:
1) They are known.
2) They have played at least a couple of games.
And what does it matter why they stopped playing. Their continued participation spoils the game for honest players. Random events as I saw were reported on the forum and it is normal that such players would not be punished.

Besides, it is not only me who writes about cases where the opponent stops responding when it becomes clear that he will lose.
Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:57 pm
There is no way in an unknown tournament to force people to keep playing, if someone decides to just not play after 4 games and you draw them when they decide to stop playing, you will face a no-show. There is no way for us to prevent this.
It is known that it is impossible to stop a player from continuing to play at any time, but the specter of a ban for such behavior may discourage some people from doing so.

And compensation for such matches should be 1000 points per side or more if more were scored before resignation.

Edmon
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Edmon » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:18 pm

Perhaps I am not explaining this very well.

You are asking for us to remove and punish people who don't play, before they have even played. How is that possible?

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:32 pm

Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:18 pm
Perhaps I am not explaining this very well.

You are asking for us to remove and punish people who don't play, before they have even played. How is that possible?
Maybe some misunderstanding, my English is not very good.
Of course is imposible to ban people befere they start playing in tournament, but if you wrote about people from bottom of table with score for example 1000/1000/0. They a long time ago resigned from tournament and forgot about it. They will never come back. Evrybody who reached points 0 in round 1 should be baned after this round.
Well, unless you get bonuses for each participant :)

Trepko
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Trepko » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:07 pm

Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:18 pm
Perhaps I am not explaining this very well.

You are asking for us to remove and punish people who don't play, before they have even played. How is that possible?
I don't think Dzidek is asking for banning a player before he could even play. I think he means that now we've played 3 rounds, we have a rather clear view of active and inactive players, and that the "cleaning" can be done.
To put some pressure upon no-showers and game-breakers (and give hope to the other ones), you could set a rule where after X no-shows among the 12 rounds (X=2 ? 3 ?), a player is automatically banned. You could also consider that for the games that are not finished at the end of the 21 days, if a player has been inactive during more than X straight days (10 ?), this is also considered as a no-show.

Finally, there would be a way to fix (or at least improve) the game-breaker problem: if a game has begun but is not finished at the end of the 21 days, replace the inactive player by an AI and let the active player finish the game within the 7 inter-round days. Of course this is not perfect (and I don't know if it is technically feasible), but that would greatly improve the problem of players who just stop playing after a few turns when they see they're losing, preventing the other player from gaining points.

As you said Edmon, this is an "unknown tournament", and because of that there are some issues that can't be totally fixed. I totally accept that (and I think all my precedent comments speak for me).
However, this is Slitherine (and not us) who decided to name this tournament "World Championship Tournament", and not "small LAN tournament between friends in a garage". So, we would all like to see more efforts/reactivity from Slitherine to fix what can be fixed. 2 rounds (= 2 months) have been necessary to fix the main obvious issue (penalty for early winning). I'm sure Slitherine can do better. Several propositions have been made by players to fix (or at least improve) the problem of players who start playing and then stop.

Edmon
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Edmon » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:27 pm

We will certainly think about your feedback, as we have done every round :).

Remember though: You will be matched with someone with a similar score. So those that have not played so far have ended up at the bottom of the score board, where you have no chance of being paired with them as long as you've been playing.

If you get matched against someone who doesn't play after round 3, it's going to be someone who has decided just now to stop playing, not someone who's not played at all.

I do agree, we should purge the AFK's from the bottom of the leader board now we know who they are. But I don't think these players are really the issue, it is those as you say, that stop playing in the middle of a round.

And there is very little we can do about that.

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:45 pm

Thanks Trepko I also explained my point of view before. You propositions seem reasonable.

Edmon we want to help. I think that everyone cares about improving the tournament, but Slitherine as organizer should lead the way.
Several issues have been raised by players, and there is no response to them (except, of course, mostly for our discussion now). Don't you think Slitherine should collect hot spots and comment on them or put up for discusion in separate threads

For example, a problem with an earlier win as a defender. Has anyone from Slitherine commented on this, is there any work going on this?

Some of the nervousness comes from the fact that we don't really know what's going on and where the improvements to the tournament are going.
Edmon wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:27 pm
I do agree, we should purge the AFK's from the bottom of the leader board now we know who they are. But I don't think these players are really the issue, it is those as you say, that stop playing in the middle of a round.

And there is very little we can do about that.
You can do everything, for example ban these users:) Above Trepko made one of the proposals.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by StuG_Tutor » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:57 am

I think there is a very powerful tool that could be used even now to "correct" for the effects of players only playing part of a round or having opponents who never even play a turn. It rescores unfinished games in a fairly and simply. I've analyzed the 123 "complete" matches in a spreadsheet. What I am doing could be automated by next round's end and calculations could be applied within a few days of a round ending, probably same day if it was sufficiently automated.

Here goes...the points to go to a player whose opponent didn't show was set to be 2000. It turns out, for round one, the average "complete match" winning player received 61.2% of an average match "pool" of about 3180 total points so about 1946 points. 2000 was almost perfect--it truly represented an average winner's points with about a 5% error.

The 2000 point average winning score estimate was too high in round two and too low in round three. And I believe it's use as a base for adjudicating partial games doesn't hold up under examination. The total score of any partially completed game equals 2000 points. This means the assumed average winner's points, 2000, was further reduced by an allocating formula. So as soon as a player quits, the other player (who is often dominating) will be given only a fraction of an average winning score. They are immediately punished when their opponent bails because the formula is apportioning the wrong number. It must apportion the average match pool NOT further reduce the average winning score. Currently, it is mathematically impossible for a player to get an average winning score if their opponent leaves no matter how much they were dominating the game. At the very least it should be apportioning from the average total points: 3180 points in round 1, not 2000. Anyone who won against an opponent who didn't finish received only 63% of their proper score in round 1...and, for that matter, any of those fellows who didn't finish also only received 63% of their rightful score as well. Technically, Round 1 no show victors should be given 1946 points, current partial round 1 game scores need to be multiplied by a factor of 1.59.

For round 2, 2000 points was too great for an average winner value--it should have been 1771 and the pool which should have been split in partial games should have been 2794 points; With the introduction of the 500 points for winning in round three, the "average" winner value should have been bumped up 500 points--the data definitely showed it, an average winner value bumped up to 2504, again though the 2000 point value they would have been using was accurate except for the intervening rules change injecting 500 more points into the system. The average pool was 3696 points almost twice the amount split between unfinished game participants.

Round two's correct no show reward should be 1771, partial score results should be multiplied by 1.397.
Round three's correct no show reward should be 2504 and, partial game participant's scores need to be multipled by 1.848 in round 3.

These corrections at least bring a degree of fairness to those who have had opponents no show or even worse show up for a few rounds and leave--it gives them the average winning score or allocates from an average total points pool for games in that round.
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