Comments on a Late Republican Roman Army and its Doctrine

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seansmith
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Comments on a Late Republican Roman Army and its Doctrine

Post by seansmith » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:11 am

Hi All

Would appreciate your comments on the army list below and the associated doctrine, which is at
viewtopic.php?t=15904


Army List

Fortified 25 points
Commanders: 4 Tactical generals costing 140 points combine

Troop Name Troop Type #N/A #N/A #N/A Capabilities Cost Deterioration
Order of March Type Armour Quality Training Shooting Close Combat Camelry; Port. Def. Number of Bases Point per Base BG Value 25% Autobreak
1 Javelinmen LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light Spear - 6 4 24 2 3
2 Javelinmen LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light Spear - 6 4 24 2 3
3 Light Horse LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - 4 8 32 1 2
4 Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light Spear - 4 7 28 1 2
5 Cavalry CV Protected Average Drilled - Swordsmen - 4 9 36 1 2
6 Cavalry CV Protected Average Drilled - Swordsmen - 4 9 36 1 2
7 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Skilled Swordsmen - 4 13 52 1 3
8 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Skilled Swordsmen - 4 13 52 1 3
9 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Skilled Swordsmen - 4 13 52 1 3
10 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Skilled Swordsmen - 4 13 52 1 3
11 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Skilled Swordsmen - 4 13 52 1 3
12 Legionaries HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Skilled Swordsmen - 4 13 52 1 3
13 Spanish Scutarii MF Protected Average Drilled - Swordsmen - 6 7 42 2 3
14 Thureophoroi MF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive Spearmen - 6 8 48 2 3
15 Elephants El - Average Undrilled - - - - 2 25 50 1 1
Last edited by seansmith on Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Polkovnik
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Post by Polkovnik » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:16 am

Well if you're going to call your C-in-C Caesar, then I think you should make him an IC !

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:21 am

I wouldn't bother with the elephants - get another legionarii BG instead.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by david53 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:29 am

Do you need to take the Cavalry being average and protected might cause them a problum against any better types of Cavalry. Not got the book in front but if you can try and take more foot that being what Romans are good at just a thought.

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Post by Mehrunes » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:49 am

Protected and average is half the cost of armoured and superior, so it is the question if you want one BG of cavalry or two for both flanks.

Elephants disorder enemy mounted, legionaries do not. I like the list as it is.

olivier
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Post by olivier » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:01 pm

I rather like two BG of superior Cav because the protected Cav are just dead men walking.
Don't bother with an IC, the legion know what to do.
Take one or two more legion.
Don't bother with nellies, they smell and a TC is compulsory with them if you want doing something with them, Legion aren't afraid of anything!
And finally don't take any MF, against light army they aren't good enough and they'll be gored and against heavy one the don't take their plac in the battle line! Take more legion and tell them to do the job! They are good enough to kill baddies or delay them enough
Oh and did I said to take more legion? :wink:

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Post by pcelella » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:29 pm

olivier wrote:Oh and did I said to take more legion? :wink:
I couldn't agree more than with the above statement. I've become convinced that when playing LRR, that anything but a minimum of support troops is nothing but a distraction. The legions are amongst the best troops in the game, and why not take as many of them as possible - that's what you will beat your opponent's troops with after all. I'd take a couple of skirmishers to delay on one flank, an unit of LF to grab some space, an unit of cavalry used only for rear support, and then take everything else as legions. That would mean that your opponent would have no choice but to face the pilum/gladius combination if they hope to break your army.

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Post by IanB3406 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:28 pm

I would even drop both medium foot, one BG of Cav, and the Elephants and buy more legions. You don't really need the medium foot, as legions can enter terrain and beat lots of things anyway if needed.

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Post by Mehrunes » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:12 pm

I'm a bit surprised that there are many votes for an all out legionary army. This behemoth will be extremely slow and unmanoeuvrable. Legionaries are superb to the front but what will protect their flanks?

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Post by batesmotel » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:20 pm

Mehrunes wrote:I'm a bit surprised that there are many votes for an all out legionary army. This behemoth will be extremely slow and unmanoeuvrable. Legionaries are superb to the front but what will protect their flanks?
The supporting line of Legionaries ;-).

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Post by ethan » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:31 pm

I might try to beef up the infantry skirmishers, I believe you can take the javelins as protected, which while pricey might be worth it. This would give you a force o clear out enemy LF pretty effectively (against most LF you would have a PoA in impact and melee).

I probably wouldn't bother with the MF in 6s, although a 8 might be useful, I would keep the Thureophoroi as they have some slightly better chance i the open against moutned. If you could improve the cavalry I think I would. As amoured superior they are a bit tougher and harder hitting rather than just victims. They also could be rear support for legions as superior which is handy. Having something a bit faster available to support (and I emphasize support, don't let them get out on their own) the legions might be nice.

I also wouldn't bring the elephants, don't tie yourself to a single un-manevuerable BG IMO.

Let's see

Drop elephant +50AP
Drop Scutarii +42
Buy 2 more Thureophoroi - 16
Upgrade cavalry to super armoured -64 (17AP each as drilled I think)

Still net + 12, upgrade all the javelins to protected -12.

Granted your army is now down to 12 BG (and many of them are 4s, so it is pretty small)

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:45 pm

Mehrunes wrote:I'm a bit surprised that there are many votes for an all out legionary army. This behemoth will be extremely slow and unmanoeuvrable. Legionaries are superb to the front but what will protect their flanks?

Drilled HF are not unmanoevrable.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by IanB3406 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:48 pm

Mehrunes wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that there are many votes for an all out legionary army. This behemoth will be extremely slow and unmanoeuvrable. Legionaries are superb to the front but what will protect their flanks?


4-paks of Legionairres are hardly unmaneuvarable. They can turn on a dime and will protect the flanks better than the undrilled medium foot (who are targets).

Put it this way, set your army up and walk to the other side of the table. Now, if you have to break that army what would you go after

The juicy bits are....
1) Medium Foot protected average infantry
2) Protected Cav

That's 8 AP right there

Now if I can pick off a light horse or light foot BG.....it sure makes fighting thoose legions much easier.

Ian

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Post by david53 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:54 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
Mehrunes wrote:I'm a bit surprised that there are many votes for an all out legionary army. This behemoth will be extremely slow and unmanoeuvrable. Legionaries are superb to the front but what will protect their flanks?

Drilled HF are not unmanoevrable.

Sadly so true.

IMO I would say having faced a few Roman armies I would rather chase the non Legion troops ie the Cavalry/LH/LF or any Medium Foot plus the camp.

So taking the least support troops will force them to fight the Legion foot if they want to win the game.
Last edited by david53 on Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

olivier
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Post by olivier » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:55 pm

My LRR, with them I won 2 comp in France :wink:

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Post by Ghaznavid » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:43 pm

IanB3406 wrote:Mehrunes wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that there are many votes for an all out legionary army. This behemoth will be extremely slow and unmanoeuvrable. Legionaries are superb to the front but what will protect their flanks?

Put it this way, set your army up and walk to the other side of the table. Now, if you have to break that army what would you go after

The juicy bits are....
1) Medium Foot protected average infantry
Not with Mehrunes Romans. His MF can withstand superior Hospitaler Kn in the open just fine. :shock:
The El turned out to be much less scary for my Kn. ;)
Karsten


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Post by Mehrunes » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:05 pm

Hehe. ;)

Maybe unmanoeuvrable wasn't the proper term. They are drilled, yes, but that doesn't make them faster. Turning on a dime isn't so great if they can only slog 3MU after that. And it also doesn't help to only turn to face the BG threatening their flank if that exposes their flank to a second BG. And a 4pak of legionaries that turned out of line is also easily overlapped.

Now that's my experience. *shrug*
I usually lose if my legionaries are fought and broken, not if the occasional MF or Cv is killed.

seansmith
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Post by seansmith » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:35 pm

Thank you for all the feed back, it is much appreciated.

A quick response to some of the points raised.

Elephants- I am taking the elephants because they help legionaries by disrupting knights, after several nasty experiences with knights, and I also use them to bolster a flank in conjunction with the medium foot.

Cavalry - The trick I have found with cavalry is not to fight with it. I know it sounds perverse . However, as per the doctrine I have written for my army:

"The trick with Roman cavalry is not to fight them, unless an enemy BG is silly enough to expose its flank or rear to them or it is unavoidable. The strengths of the Roman cavalry are the restricted area they exert and their ability to skirmish.

The role of Roman cavalry is to pin BGs in the opposing army, so they cannot attack the flanks of the legionaries. This is achieved by deploying the Roman cavalry in a skirmish line and maneuvering it so opposing army’s BGs are in its restricted zone. The opposing army’s BGs then have to charge the Roman cavalry, stand or move away from the Roman cavalry. Whichever option they choose it prevents them from attacking the legionaries

Another potential use for superior cavalry is to provide rear support for legionaries. This will provide the legionaries with a +1 modifier when they have to take cohesion tests. In this capacity they can also act as a reserve. However, having attempted this, I found that it rarely happens, as the cavalry are usually required elsewhere. Consequently, I prefer not to upgrade Roman cavalry and use the points elsewhere instead."

Medium foot - I have find that medium foot are execellent at securing the flanks of the legionaries and they also do ok in open terrain, if used in conjunction with the battle group of elephants.

The overall philosophy behind my army is, as per the doctrine I have written:

"Legionaries

Legionaries are core of the LRRA. The success in getting them into combat determines if the LRRA wins or losses a battle nine times out of ten. Brute force is the strength of legionaries. Consequently, advancing in a single multi-BG phalanx is usually the best tactic for legionaries.

Opposing armies will try to prevent this by attempting to envelop the LRRA’s flanks. The trick is for the LRRA to use terrain, when this is possible, to protect the legionaries flanks and, when this isn’t possible, to use the support troops to delay and pin the opposing army’s BGs, so the legionaries have sufficient time to defeat the main body of the opposing army. The legionaries must advance as fast as possible, because the longer they take to defeat the main body of the opposing army’s main battle the more time the opposing army has to envelop the LRRA’s flanks. If possible, the legionaries should deploy opposite the enemy’s camp and advance towards it. This will hopefully force the opposing army to face the legionaries in order to defend its camp."

A key part of how I intend to use this army is the use of terrain. I intend to do the following.

"Part four: Selecting and placing terrain

Legionaries are happy to fight any other troop type, except pikes, man on man. What they want to avoid is having their flanks enveloped. Consequently, the LRRA wants as many pieces of impassable, rough and uneven terrain as it can get. Selecting a coastline is also a good option, if the LRRA wins initiative, because it will provide a secure flank.

Rough and impassable terrain should be placed in the centre of battlefield to create ‘avenues,’ if the terrain placement dice rolls permit this. This will enable the LRRA to section off the battlefield and refuse a flank. The light horse can then be used to delay the BGs of the opposing army that are on the refused flank."

Regards

Sean
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Post by mbsparta » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:56 am

A LRR army is all about legionaries. It looks to me like to chose a mixed-arms tournament army and added in some legionaries because you had to.

Caesar would be so ashamed.

Mike B

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Post by david53 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:26 am

seansmith wrote:
Cavalry - The trick I have found with cavalry is not to fight with it. I know it sounds perverse . However, as per the doctrine I have written for my army:

"The trick with Roman cavalry is not to fight them, unless an enemy BG is silly enough to expose its flank or rear to them or it is unavoidable. The strengths of the Roman cavalry are the restricted area they exert and their ability to skirmish.

The role of Roman cavalry is to pin BGs in the opposing army, so they cannot attack the flanks of the legionaries. This is achieved by deploying the Roman cavalry in a skirmish line and maneuvering it so opposing army’s BGs are in its restricted zone. The opposing army’s BGs then have to charge the Roman cavalry, stand or move away from the Roman cavalry. Whichever option they choose it prevents them from attacking the legionaries


Sean
Sadly what happens if i bring up my Lancer Superior Cavalry up to a mm away from your Cavalry in my turn now your pinned. In my next turn i charge being so close I have a good chance of catching you in the rear if you evade.

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