China DLC

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FOARP
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China DLC

Post by FOARP » Thu May 28, 2015 8:04 pm

Please do a Japanese China campaign DLC for OOB:Pacific. It would be so awesome. Consider:

- You'd have the opportunity to portray battles that (AFAIK) literally have never been portrayed before in any game ever, like the battles in Manchuria in 1931-33, Shanghai in 1932 and 1937, Wuhan in 1938, Changsha in 1943.

- The fighting in China involved plenty of combined operations. Both of the Shanghai battles involved air battles and amphibious landings, as did the advance up the Yangtse in '37 and the fighting in Southern China (i.e., the landings in Guangdong in '38 and the capture of Hainan in '39), so plenty of scope for naval/air action.

- A Japanese China campaign could segue easily into an SE Asia campaign in Indochina, Malaya, Burma, and India, and then maybe defensive fighting against the Americans and Soviets.

- Fighting against the Chinese would be a great way of building up experience and simulating the advantage the Japanese had. Japan basically used China almost like a speed-bag before heading on to fight the Western Allies, and whilst technically they were in many ways behind them for a lot of the war, they had the advantage of experience until too many of their veterans became casualties.

- This would be one of the few WW2-era theatres of war where the traditional disparity of numbers would actually be realistic rather than wildly ahistorical (I'm looking at you, Allied Corps).

Suggested line-up:
  • Manchuria 1931 - Fighting for Harbin perhaps.
  • Shanghai 1932 - Street fighting waiting for amphibious reinforcements.
  • Operation Nekka 1933 - Japan's first blitz, through the Great Wall and into the province of Jehol (ReHe).
  • Inner Mongolia 1936 - Steppe warfare.
  • Shanghai 1937 - A much bigger battle than the 1932 fight, both inside the city and its surrounding area, with the Japanese heavily outnumbered.
  • Yangtse Valley 1937 - A Blitz up the Yangtse (Changjiang) to Nanjing
  • Wuhan 1938 - A massive battle in central China
  • Southern China 1938-39 - Landings in Canton (Guangdong) and Hainan.
  • Khalkin Gol 1939 - Japanese versus Soviets.
  • Indochina 1940 - Time to beat up on the French a bit.
  • Malaya 1941 - Destroy Force Z, invade the peninsula
  • Singapore 1941 - Blitz the city before the defences become properly organised.
  • Burma 1942 - Capture Rangoon, take the oil fields before the British demolish them, and cut the Burma road.
  • Arakan 1942-1943 - Survive the British attack and then counter-attack.
  • The gates of India 1944 - Capture Imphal and Kohima and sucre the Western border of the empire.
  • Operation Ichi-Go 1944 - Take the airfields around China quickly to stop the Allied air-offensive
  • Leyte 1944 - Defeat the US in a combined air and sea offensive and buy time for the Empire.
  • Manchuria 1945 - Survive the USSR offensive.
  • Operation Olympic 1945 - Defeat the US invasion of Japan and bring the war to a conclusion.

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Re: China DLC

Post by monkspider » Thu May 28, 2015 10:34 pm

One other possibility I thought about is to portray the war up to late 1941 (ending in a possible Chinese surrender) and then be able to import that core into the main campaign. Maybe it could be like the 42-43 West DLC in Panzer Corps where you can only import a small handful of units, but it would be awesome and give the campaign some extra consequence.

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Fri May 29, 2015 2:35 am

+ 1 on FOARP

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Re: China DLC

Post by rezaf » Fri May 29, 2015 6:35 am

I'm pretty sure a china DLC is being considered by the devs.
It's a very likely candidate based on the fact alone that you can re-use tons of assets, as the japanese units could for the most part stay as they are already implemented and the chinese require moderate effort as they don't possess their own ranges of tanks or aircraft. There's a LOT less to be done for this compared to a european theatre DLC.

The main reason they decided to neglect china in the base game is probably a mix of economics and the idea that missions in china wouldn't allow the entire naval engine to shine.
But unless the game tanked really hard, I'd reckon we get to see china sooner or later.
We'll see, I guess.
_____
rezaf

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri May 29, 2015 7:03 am

FOARP wrote:
  • Manchuria 1931 - Fighting for Harbin perhaps.
  • Shanghai 1932 - Street fighting waiting for amphibious reinforcements.
  • Operation Nekka 1933 - Japan's first blitz, through the Great Wall and into the province of Jehol (ReHe).
  • Inner Mongolia 1936 - Steppe warfare.
  • Shanghai 1937 - A much bigger battle than the 1932 fight, both inside the city and its surrounding area, with the Japanese heavily outnumbered.
  • Yangtse Valley 1937 - A Blitz up the Yangtse (Changjiang) to Nanjing
  • Wuhan 1938 - A massive battle in central China
  • Southern China 1938-39 - Landings in Canton (Guangdong) and Hainan.
  • Khalkin Gol 1939 - Japanese versus Soviets.
  • Indochina 1940 - Time to beat up on the French a bit.
  • Malaya 1941 - Destroy Force Z, invade the peninsula
  • Singapore 1941 - Blitz the city before the defences become properly organised.
  • Burma 1942 - Capture Rangoon, take the oil fields before the British demolish them, and cut the Burma road.
  • Arakan 1942-1943 - Survive the British attack and then counter-attack.
  • The gates of India 1944 - Capture Imphal and Kohima and sucre the Western border of the empire.
  • Operation Ichi-Go 1944 - Take the airfields around China quickly to stop the Allied air-offensive
  • Leyte 1944 - Defeat the US in a combined air and sea offensive and buy time for the Empire.
  • Manchuria 1945 - Survive the USSR offensive.
  • Operation Olympic 1945 - Defeat the US invasion of Japan and bring the war to a conclusion.
There wasn't many large battles (like Guadalcanal) in Manchuria 1931-7, so I don't think that part of your campaign idea would be much fun. But 1937-1945 would be quite good. Chuck in Chungking and a couple of other fictional battles and I can't see why this shouldn't happen.

As for Burma and Malaya, that would probably be better as its own DLC, as there was various parallel actions and we don't want to miss anything! :wink:

- BNC
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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Fri May 29, 2015 7:55 am

@ bitenibblechomp, Manchuria do not need large battles as its early campaign so can use that to build up experience game mechanic etc. Small battle can be fun if the objective is nicely set. Eg if you have a campaign to conquer Borneo it should set a time race to those Dutch Shell refinery and oil field as the Dutch destroy those upon spotting Japanese invasion force so the objective can be really interesting if set correctly. Eg in Manchuria destroy x amount of Russian tank get a AT hero etc

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri May 29, 2015 7:58 am

My biggest pickle with allied Corps was that the first few scenarios were so insignificant strategicly thinking that there is no reason to include them. Something Borneo-sized is fine, but when you are told to capture a single town that has maybe 200 people in it then why bother.

And seeing as the standard in OOBP campaigns is 12 scenarios, we should hope that all of them have some value, not 4 stupidly pointless ones followed by 8 decent ones.

- BNC
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simcc
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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Fri May 29, 2015 9:03 am

Totally agree BiteNibbleChomp.

If the Manchuria scenarios is fighting Russian Tanks BT series and score # of kills to get a AT hero which will surely benefit fighting those Allied tanks later, will those scenarios interest you?

Or rescue those Manchuria army (6th Army Japanese IRL IIRC) to be recruited or join you in core later for china scenario, will those scenarios interest you?

Of course i fully agree that allied corp destroy italian truck is really a waste of time lol

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Re: China DLC

Post by apec » Fri May 29, 2015 10:24 am

monkspider wrote:One other possibility I thought about is to portray the war up to late 1941 (ending in a possible Chinese surrender) and then be able to import that core into the main campaign. Maybe it could be like the 42-43 West DLC in Panzer Corps where you can only import a small handful of units, but it would be awesome and give the campaign some extra consequence.
I like this idea, however it would automatically require a revisitation of the current campaign to account for core unit experience and eventual leaders that you acquired during the chinese 37-41 campaign. Anyway, by end of 1941 it could possible to select the current pacific campaign or continue with the burma-india campaing as suggested by FOARP.

FOARP
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Re: China DLC

Post by FOARP » Fri May 29, 2015 1:20 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote: There wasn't many large battles (like Guadalcanal) in Manchuria 1931-7
What on earth are you talking about? Guadalcanal took place over a small area of a small island between two armies of roughly Corps-strength. By contrast, Manchuria is bigger than France, Germany, and Italy combined, and the 1931-32 fighting involved a larger Japanese force than the one deployed at Guadalcanal fighting against a Chinese army more than 160,000 strong.
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:My biggest pickle with allied Corps was that the first few scenarios were so insignificant strategicly thinking that there is no reason to include them. Something Borneo-sized is fine, but when you are told to capture a single town that has maybe 200 people in it then why bother.

And seeing as the standard in OOBP campaigns is 12 scenarios, we should hope that all of them have some value, not 4 stupidly pointless ones followed by 8 decent ones.

- BNC
Harbin, Qiqihar, Shenyang (formerly known as Mukden), Changchun are cities with populations in the millions. Manchuria is a highly important strategic area. Again, what are you talking about?

To be honest, I think the thinking here just reflects a lack of familiarity with just how big the war in China was, even before the outbreak of major fighting in 1937. To my mind, that make it fertile ground for new scenarios covering subject matter that has not been seen before. This is especially true of the fighting in Shanghai in 1932 and 1937, both of which involved aerial combat and amphibious landings.

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Re: China DLC

Post by Ice5643 » Fri May 29, 2015 3:06 pm

While I agree with you generally FOARP it has to be considered that of those 160,000 men only a tiny part engaged the Japanese seriously as they were ordered to withdraw by the government. As such there wasnt much in the way of pitched battles. It would however serve very well as a small scale (focusing on one of the areas that did resist) introductory scenario. Also I personally thought that the first few scenarios of Allied corps were a very good way of easing people into the game, and its not like there wasnt an option to start later, when the war proper started in Africa.

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Re: China DLC

Post by FOARP » Fri May 29, 2015 3:25 pm

Ice5643 wrote:While I agree with you generally FOARP it has to be considered that of those 160,000 men only a tiny part engaged the Japanese seriously as they were ordered to withdraw by the government. As such there wasnt much in the way of pitched battles. It would however serve very well as a small scale (focusing on one of the areas that did resist) introductory scenario. Also I personally thought that the first few scenarios of Allied corps were a very good way of easing people into the game, and its not like there wasnt an option to start later, when the war proper started in Africa.
Yeah, that's why I said maybe the fight at Harbin could be the focus (Qiqihar also saw a pitched battle). What kind of made me a bit frustrated was the comparison with the truck-destroying at the start of Allied Corps and fighting for tiny villages when in reality, even with your caveats, we're still talking about large pitched battles for big cities.

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri May 29, 2015 11:06 pm

FOARP wrote:
BiteNibbleChomp wrote: There wasn't many large battles (like Guadalcanal) in Manchuria 1931-7
What on earth are you talking about? Guadalcanal took place over a small area of a small island between two armies of roughly Corps-strength. By contrast, Manchuria is bigger than France, Germany, and Italy combined, and the 1931-32 fighting involved a larger Japanese force than the one deployed at Guadalcanal fighting against a Chinese army more than 160,000 strong.
You forget that there were huge naval battles and that the battle went on for 6 months or more. Add in the rest of the Solomons and you have a brutal slaughter. Also, Guadalcanal is far more well known than any Manchurian battles.
FOARP wrote: Harbin, Qiqihar, Shenyang (formerly known as Mukden), Changchun are cities with populations in the millions. Manchuria is a highly important strategic area. Again, what are you talking about?
Did they in 1931 though? London has more than doubled in population since '45, so I would think something similar happened here. And my reference to 'tiny villages' was relating to Allied Corps, were you are ordered to conquer Fort Capuzzo, which is the rather pointless scrap of land currently occupied by a couple of bunkers.

But overall, the 1931 campaign was tiny compared to the 1937 one, and a four or five year break between missions is kind of silly.
Ice5643 wrote:While I agree with you generally FOARP it has to be considered that of those 160,000 men only a tiny part engaged the Japanese seriously as they were ordered to withdraw by the government. As such there wasnt much in the way of pitched battles. It would however serve very well as a small scale (focusing on one of the areas that did resist) introductory scenario. Also I personally thought that the first few scenarios of Allied corps were a very good way of easing people into the game, and its not like there wasnt an option to start later, when the war proper started in Africa.
And is OOB not about pitched battles? There is a reason Vietnam doesn't make it into many games: guerrilla warfare isn't a lot of fun.

Overall Manchuria would be alright if it was a separate campaign to 1937-China but combining them is kind of silly in my eyes. But we all have different views :)

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Re: China DLC

Post by FOARP » Sat May 30, 2015 9:36 am

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
FOARP wrote:
BiteNibbleChomp wrote: There wasn't many large battles (like Guadalcanal) in Manchuria 1931-7
What on earth are you talking about? Guadalcanal took place over a small area of a small island between two armies of roughly Corps-strength. By contrast, Manchuria is bigger than France, Germany, and Italy combined, and the 1931-32 fighting involved a larger Japanese force than the one deployed at Guadalcanal fighting against a Chinese army more than 160,000 strong.
You forget that there were huge naval battles and that the battle went on for 6 months or more. Add in the rest of the Solomons and you have a brutal slaughter. Also, Guadalcanal is far more well known than any Manchurian battles.

The large-scale fighting in Manchuria lasted five months and killed tens of thousands.
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
FOARP wrote: Harbin, Qiqihar, Shenyang (formerly known as Mukden), Changchun are cities with populations in the millions. Manchuria is a highly important strategic area. Again, what are you talking about?
Did they in 1931 though? London has more than doubled in population since '45, so I would think something similar happened here. And my reference to 'tiny villages' was relating to Allied Corps, were you are ordered to conquer Fort Capuzzo, which is the rather pointless scrap of land currently occupied by a couple of bunkers.
And why are you comparing that to fighting between large armies over major cities?
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:But overall, the 1931 campaign was tiny compared to the 1937 one,
The fighting in the Pacific post-1941 was also tiny compared to the fighting in China after 1937: battles like Shanghai and Wuhan involved armies of millions.
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:and a four or five year break between missions is kind of silly.
Which was why, if you had bothered to read the original post, I also included the fighting in Shanghai in 1932, on the Great Wall in 1933-34, and in Inner Mongolia in 1936.
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
Ice5643 wrote:While I agree with you generally FOARP it has to be considered that of those 160,000 men only a tiny part engaged the Japanese seriously as they were ordered to withdraw by the government. As such there wasnt much in the way of pitched battles. It would however serve very well as a small scale (focusing on one of the areas that did resist) introductory scenario. Also I personally thought that the first few scenarios of Allied corps were a very good way of easing people into the game, and its not like there wasnt an option to start later, when the war proper started in Africa.
And is OOB not about pitched battles? There is a reason Vietnam doesn't make it into many games: guerrilla warfare isn't a lot of fun.
He wasn't saying there were no pitched battles, he's just saying that not all 160,000 defending troops got into the fight.
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:Overall Manchuria would be alright if it was a separate campaign to 1937-China but combining them is kind of silly in my eyes. But we all have different views :)

- BNC
The problem is, you've said nothing to substantiate that view, and it just looks like you're not really familiar with what happened.

But hey, the real reason to include the 1931-37 fighting is this: it would be fun, interesting, and not something the player will have seen before. One of the Manchuria battles (e.g., Qiqihar) would be a good introduction and find the player, outnumbered more than 2-to-1, having to fight off a flank attack by cavalry before breaking through the defences and taking the city. The Shanghai fighting in 1932 would find you defending your positions street-by-street under the guns of your warships trying to hold out until reinforcements land and launch a flank attack. Blitzing through the Great Wall in 1933 would be all kinds of awesome, as would attacking across the Mongolian Steppe to capture the (supposed) burial place of Genghis Khan. We're not talking about blowing up trucks here.

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Re: China DLC

Post by Erik2 » Sat May 30, 2015 9:53 am

In my view, OOB is not about scale, although the default movement/ranges are not scalable like in TOAW. You can have interesting small-scale campaigns like New Britain (3 scenarios, large map, relatively few units).
The designer's task is of course to create scenarios that are balanced and hopefully fun to play.
I would be really interested in (designing and) playing the lesser known battles in China, Burma etc.
I think there is a lot of potential here.

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Sat May 30, 2015 10:11 am

Seeing Great Wall of China in game would be a plus lol, love that big long wall

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat May 30, 2015 10:15 am

I'll simplify everything a bit then:

:arrow: Manchuria lasted for some of 1931 into 1932. Then what? PzC is strange when you go from Moscow in 1941 to America in 1945 in the space of one scenario, and if we combine the 1931 and 1937 battles together then you get the same problem.
FOARP wrote:
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
FOARP wrote: Harbin, Qiqihar, Shenyang (formerly known as Mukden), Changchun are cities with populations in the millions. Manchuria is a highly important strategic area. Again, what are you talking about?
Did they in 1931 though? London has more than doubled in population since '45, so I would think something similar happened here. And my reference to 'tiny villages' was relating to Allied Corps, were you are ordered to conquer Fort Capuzzo, which is the rather pointless scrap of land currently occupied by a couple of bunkers.
And why are you comparing that to fighting between large armies over major cities?
:arrow: Then I was just explaining my reference to AC. Fights for simple strongpoints are boring, battles involving hundreds or thousands of men are more fun :D

:arrow: 1937 had bigger battles, so we don't want to make a huge transition from battles of 200k men to battles of 5 million.

:arrow: Inner Mongolia in 1936 involved 25k men tops.
Erik wrote: The designer's task is of course to create scenarios that are balanced and hopefully fun to play.
Indeed, I am a modder of PzC and know how frustrating this can be at times. But I try to make campaigns have similar scale throughout wherever possible (Somme and Verdun in my WWI mod for example), though there are times when this doesn't work so well (Siege of Kut)

:idea: So overall I believe there is not enough happening between 1932 and 1937 to join the two together, but an independant 1931 and a separate 1937-45 campaign could work. And you are entitled to think otherwise.
Though I reckon that developers find it easier if they can see 2 sides of a story :wink: - I hope this explains my view.

BTW, I don't claim to know as much about Manchuria as battles from WWI, but I understand that there was a relatively peaceful period from ~1933-1937, and find this would mess up a campaign (If I was designing it then I would split the two)

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Re: China DLC

Post by GideonSheng » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:08 am

@BiteNibbleChomp @FOARP

1. China DLC would be a DLC with GREAT value in decades(if Devs do it right) , since the war in Asia (China, Taiwan, Hainan, Thailand, etc) from 1931-1937 was almost never mentioned in any SLG games for years. Basically a lot of games did a lot on the battles that the British and US forces had involved, but everything else is left aside.

2. However, this part of the WWII is important but very hard to portrait:

A lot of parties involved:Russian, Japan, US, UK, France, Chinese Communists, Chinese KMT forces(and KMT forces were more like warlord's-cocktail-party rather than an unified army under the command of a goverment), Chinese Forces which submited to the Japs(Like "Régime de Vichy" in France). They are allies sometimes, and in some other cases they are enemies. It is very complicated.

A lot of ethical questionable acts of war happened: Massacre in NanJing(1937, Jap sacked the city for 6 weeks, 300K+ civilian victims dead), Chemical Warfare in China (Jap used from 1931-1944), Bio-Chemical Experiments on Live Human Subjects in Manchuria(Jap did it on chinese POWs and civilians, 1931-1945), Using Child-Army Guerillas(Chinese Communists Force), Scorched Earth policy without evacuation(KMT Forces, 1938, set the city of CHANGSHA on fire with civilians still live in it, 30K+ casualties)......and this list could go long.....
I'm not say that only China suffered war disasters in WWII, but it was a very very Special&Nasty war that no parties considered or cared for the Chinese civilians(not even their own goverment, the KMT forces). And the Chinese civilan casualties(20.6 Mil) is almost as many as the Russian's casualties of military+civilian (26 Mil). (The Chinese military casualties is around 14 Mil)

If the Devs gonna to do it, I strongly suggest the team to dodge these sensitive time and places, because it was no use for the game and very hard to portrait. And I would understand it would be very hard to rebuild what it was REALLY like(the hell for the civilians), since it is too heavy, but try your best, make some try that no one did in almost 70 years.

3.About "1931 or 1937" and the importance of Manchuria

The number of population of the Manchuria Area in the year of 1931 was: 30 Million , while the population of France in 1930s was 40-42 million
And if you consider the industrial output and how big the area is, it is certianly important.

But.....Sadly, the chinese goverment at the time, the KMT forces, DID NOT put up a fight to defend Manchuria AT ALL. And even in the 1932 Shanghai fight,
the chinese resistance force was ordered to give up the fight and retreat after 1 month of epic fighting.(poor equipped force with larger number defend aganist a modernized army with tanks, planes, warship&carrier costal supports)
And every real fight in China was after the Xi'an Incident(1936 Dec), the KMT president was kindnapped by one of his generals, a former warlord of Manchuria, and forced to give the order to a full-scale fight against the Japanese aggression.
So it would be a better choice to start the china DLC somewhere after 1937.



But all in all, it would be wonderful that I shall see this DLC working, and I would be more than glad to help the Devs to do so(checking facts, etc).


P.S.: I'm Chinese

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:30 am

It is a very tough place for China DLC as many developers are not Chinese hence understanding of China-Japan war is hard even for a Chinese as there are so many parties involve during that chaotic state which many have turn side so many times for survival and Chinese KMT is not a real united army which many warlords take advantage of the situation for survival and exploit of the local population.

Its was because the conquest of China that force Japan to Southeast Asia invasion in the first place as China is too vast to conquer and Japanese are running low on resources to finish the job in China hence invasion of SEA to secure resources for the long war in China hence I believe the China DLC would be very interesting and can portrait the Chinese sacrifice and resistance that bought Japan down to their heels if done correctly by the developers.

My suggestion on China DLC as below and should be 3 side campaign rather than traditional 2 sides. It should be China, Imperial Japan and Allied.

China would be the hardest to represent due to the fact that there is no unison army and KMT and Communist don't really work together lol.

Allied campaign DLC would be more straight forward and easy eg French Indochina defense - defense of British Malaya, Singapore, Burma and India then to offensive in retaking Burma and reopening Burma road. Dutch Indonesia defense and fall of Dutch oilfield in Borneo, Java etc - American defeat and offensive which should include many small island battle like Wake, Guam, Solomon, Tarawa, Eniwetok, Saipan, Iwo Jima etc.

IJ campaign I really hope to play the defense part as losing side as it would really show the kamikaze, banzai charge to portrait the real life situation of man acting on desperation call.

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Re: China DLC

Post by jomni » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:23 am

Just to backtrack a bit. Manchuria is the home of the last Chinese Dynasty (Qing). These are actually Jurchen nomads who conquered Ming China in 1600s. I suppose the Han Chinese and anti-monarchy KMT has no love for Manchuria and happily handed it over to the Japanese.

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