Ambushers

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DaiSho
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Ambushers

Post by DaiSho » Mon May 26, 2008 4:26 am

Hello all,

The rules for setting up an ambush seem quite straight forward. My regular opponent and I came across a situation which we tossed around for a little while and came up with a believable explanation, but would like some feedback from the forum.

I deployed some skirmisher (Cretian archers) foot in a legal manner by placing the 'ambush marker'. After the first turn I 'sprang' my ambushers (along with the Troop general). I placed one element on the 40 x 40 template then put out the rest of the BG around it. It so ended up that the BG would have been visible even though the template would not have been.

We discussed this and came to the conclusion that this is probably 'ok'. Our reasoning was that the template is where the troops actually are until discovered or sprung, and quickly rush into formation. The end result is that a BG COULD conceivably not end up entirely within the terrain feature as they may end in a formation that has part of the BG outside the terrain feature.

It smacks of cheese, but I actually like the reasoning and simplicity. This is not a modern day ambush with gunfire and plenty of noise, it is a 'whoa, I didn't expect that' as troops quickly form in front of you. The template makes for simple visibility checks without a player having to imagine the formation to confirm visibility, and also stops the feeling of being cheated as strange formations are created to comply with visibility rules (as has happened to me in the past).

Any thoughts?

SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet » Mon May 26, 2008 6:03 am

A reasonable rationale, but I'm not sure it is needed.

The rule that bases after the first can't be closer to any enemy BG to which it would be visible, together with the rule that any bases not legally placed are lost, should make sure that no base placed after the first would be visible to the enemy when the marker would not have been when all the ambshers are the same troop type. Am I missing something?

Mike

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Post by DaiSho » Sat May 31, 2008 11:16 am

MikeK wrote:A reasonable rationale, but I'm not sure it is needed.

The rule that bases after the first can't be closer to any enemy BG to which it would be visible, together with the rule that any bases not legally placed are lost, should make sure that no base placed after the first would be visible to the enemy when the marker would not have been when all the ambshers are the same troop type. Am I missing something?

Mike
I think you (or maybe I) have mis-read the rule.

It cannot go closer to troops that it would have been visible to. So, it can still become visible, but just no closer to them. I.E. if you have a line advancing on them that 'activate' the ambush, the first figure is put down. Effectively, even if the rest of the ambush gets put in the open, so long as they are no closer to any enemy that can see them it's an ok deployment.

Ian

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Post by SirGarnet » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:56 am

The above question came up again. So you can place an ambusher where it is visible to enemy troops, just no closer than the first base to any such enemy troops that can see it? This means an ambusher can be placed wholly or partly in open terrain so long as it is as far or farther away from enemy that can see it than the first base (partly makes sense to me, wholly seems a stretch).

I think so, since the rules DON'T say that each ambusher placed must be placed in the ambush terrain feature where which it is not visible to any enemy other than that which discovers the ambush.

It seems reasonable since the discovering player can limit where the ambushing player can deploy bases by the direction he approaches the ambush marker and how his BG's front is angled. Since none can be deployed closer than the first base, the first base is going to be the corner nearest the enemy BG unless the enemy came in perfectly aligned with the ambush marker.

This would be useful to confirm for the next ambush!

Thanks,

Mike

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Post by lawrenceg » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:28 pm

MikeK wrote:The above question came up again. So you can place an ambusher where it is visible to enemy troops, just no closer than the first base to any such enemy troops that can see it? This means an ambusher can be placed wholly or partly in open terrain so long as it is as far or farther away from enemy that can see it than the first base (partly makes sense to me, wholly seems a stretch).

I think so, since the rules DON'T say that each ambusher placed must be placed in the ambush terrain feature where which it is not visible to any enemy other than that which discovers the ambush.

It seems reasonable since the discovering player can limit where the ambushing player can deploy bases by the direction he approaches the ambush marker and how his BG's front is angled. Since none can be deployed closer than the first base, the first base is going to be the corner nearest the enemy BG unless the enemy came in perfectly aligned with the ambush marker.

This would be useful to confirm for the next ambush!

Thanks,

Mike
You have it right, but note:

THe distance restriction applies to ALL enemy battlegroups that can see any base of the deployed ambusher BG.

Bases can be closer to an enemy BG if they are not visible to it.

If the nearest part of an enemy BG was its corner, then the first ambusher base placed need not be at the corner.
Lawrence Greaves

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Post by DaiSho » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:33 pm

lawrenceg wrote:
You have it right, but note:

THe distance restriction applies to ALL enemy battlegroups that can see any base of the deployed ambusher BG.

Bases can be closer to an enemy BG if they are not visible to it.

If the nearest part of an enemy BG was its corner, then the first ambusher base placed need not be at the corner.
Yes, I think the use of Ambushers is far more limited here than other systems. I think you have to have a definite plan to use Ambushers. The only time I've used them was to get quickly to ANOTHER terrain feature that I wanted to deny my opponent. He didn't spring the ambush, I deployed the troops, and they ended up (legally) partially in open terrain (in this case angling toward my base edge). They then quickly high tailed it to the terrain feature in question. Things would have been ugly if my opponent had managed to spring the ambush first.

Ian

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