The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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grumpydaddy845
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by grumpydaddy845 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:32 pm

Sennacherib wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:09 pm
please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?
Murphy's Law!

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:39 pm

Sennacherib wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:09 pm
please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?
That is rather weird. I don't know the underlying mechanics of the light spear heavy cavalry - I'm not sure if it's a straight "roll of the dice" for stand or evade, or if it calculates the start position for danger and then adjusts that roll of the dice for or against stand/evade.

In the first case, the start position probably was bad, and so evade was the result. At that point, the retreat path is.......randomly generate? Resulting in a worse situation via bad luck. I've had cases like that where I evaded for exactly one space and then got rear-charged and quickly routed.

For the second case........did the lancers start in that dangerous position, or did they have to move spaces to reach that position?

Athos1660
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Athos1660 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:09 pm

^ C'est la vie :-)

Sennacherib
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Sennacherib » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:38 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:39 pm
Sennacherib wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:09 pm
please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?
That is rather weird. I don't know the underlying mechanics of the light spear heavy cavalry - I'm not sure if it's a straight "roll of the dice" for stand or evade, or if it calculates the start position for danger and then adjusts that roll of the dice for or against stand/evade.

In the first case, the start position probably was bad, and so evade was the result. At that point, the retreat path is.......randomly generate? Resulting in a worse situation via bad luck. I've had cases like that where I evaded for exactly one space and then got rear-charged and quickly routed.

For the second case........did the lancers start in that dangerous position, or did they have to move spaces to reach that position?
they were in my front as the second one at two /three case, they move to contact me on the angle so i expose my flank to the second

Swuul
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Swuul » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:11 pm

First case, the light cavalry charges from flank or rear, right (if I read it right)?
The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.
Which is one of the better uses for light cavalry, if you ask me ---> move to a flanking position of enemy cavalry, position your own heavy cavalry anticipiating where the enemy will evade after you light cavalry charge has forced the enemy cavalry to evade, flank charge with your heavy cavalry for great profit :)


Second case. From the description I understand the enemy lancers are in frontal contact with your cavalry, was that so?
The answer would be: The chance to evade a frontal charge is (much) smaller, if the charger is already *at the start of the turn* in contact with the one to be charged.
For example cataphract lancers are slow as molasses. Hostile cavalry *always* evades their charge, unless you have moved the cataphracts to contact already on the previous turn.
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

Sennacherib
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Sennacherib » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:21 pm

First case, the light cavalry charges from flank or rear, right (if I read it right)

nope, it charge my left front angle

Second case. From the description I understand the enemy lancers are in frontal contact with your cavalry, was that so?

nope, two hexagone away from it

Nosy_Rat
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Nosy_Rat » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:14 pm

Swuul wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:11 pm
The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.
That's not always true, if there's no other enemy unit nearby non-light cavalry is pretty likely to stand up to the flank charge from light cav. Probably some random factor is invovled, as usual.

Regarding the second case - non-lancer cavalry can sometimes stand up to a lancer charge if they consider their melee chances to be good, ie. ghilman usually would take a stand versus bedouin lancers since they have like 50% win chance in melee.

Doesn't explain why they would do it if under a flank threat, though.

Swuul
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Swuul » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:20 pm

Nosy_Rat wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:14 pm
Swuul wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:11 pm
The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.
That's not always true, if there's no other enemy unit nearby non-light cavalry is pretty likely to stand up to the flank charge from light cav.
Then that has probably changed in some patch, because that was the official answer to the question:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/660160/d ... 946902806/

Also, I have never failed to make a non-light cavalry evade a charge from rear or flank with light cavalry, and I quite often attempt to use that for my advantage.
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:50 pm

Swuul wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:20 pm
Then that has probably changed in some patch, because that was the official answer to the question:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/660160/d ... 946902806/

Also, I have never failed to make a non-light cavalry evade a charge from rear or flank with light cavalry, and I quite often attempt to use that for my advantage.
In my recently finished Classical Division match, I used a unit of Nomad Light Horse Archers (40 points, bow, sword) to charge a unit of Armored Noble Cav w/general (60 points, light spear, superior, armored) in the rear. The nomad horse got yellow numbers and stuck to the noble cav, forcing them to turn around and no longer face the rear of my pike phalanx. On the melee round, my light horse got absolutely bodied, double dropped, and fell back a few spaces.

I think it's all about the situation the targeted unit is in, combined with some bit of what unit is doing the charging. I imagine few things would choose to take a rear charge from Prodromoi (light lancer, superior).

rbodleyscott
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:36 am

Swuul wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:20 pm
Nosy_Rat wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:14 pm
Swuul wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:11 pm
The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.
That's not always true, if there's no other enemy unit nearby non-light cavalry is pretty likely to stand up to the flank charge from light cav.
Then that has probably changed in some patch, because that was the official answer to the question:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/660160/d ... 946902806/

Also, I have never failed to make a non-light cavalry evade a charge from rear or flank with light cavalry, and I quite often attempt to use that for my advantage.
It did change, in update 1.2.5
o Cavalry, camelry and chariots will no longer automatically evade if charged in flank/rear by light horse.
Also update 1.5.12
o Evady Cavalry/Camelry/Light Chariots will no longer allow themselves to be pinned by a light horse charge if they are also threatened with a possible flank/rear charge by non-light troops this turn. This was an unintended consequence of the previous change to prevent Cavalry/Camelry/Light Chariots from automatically evading from flank/rear charges by Light Horse. Note that it is still possible to pin them with light horse that start the turn in an adjacent square if the heavier charge threat is frontal.
You can see all previous update notes by hitting the Patch Notes button on the launcher.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Swuul
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Swuul » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:24 pm

While Dailami infantry certainly is good medium infantry, they sure are not Legions. I think I will in the future stick with romans and classic antique, my Dailami games in Early Medieval seem to go down the drain :( Ok, so I will be a one trick pony, but at least I am then a proud pony! Too bad there are no Han Chinese in FoG2 like there was in DBM, then I would be a two-trick pony, hah!
There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

GeneralKostas
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by GeneralKostas » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:02 pm

The Italian Foot was in open terrain. I tested an attack with my Veteran Armoured Cavalry to check the statistics and i saw that my cavalry (in open terrain) was moderately disorder (-22%).

Can you explain that?
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Athos1660
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Athos1660 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:23 pm

GeneralKostas wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:02 pm
(...)
The square between your cavalry and the Italian foot is rough terrain.
So you charge from a rough terrain.
Rough terrain moderately disorders mounted troops (-22%).

(edit) btw manual, p. 91 about 'Close Combat on the Edge of Terrain' : "If troops inside a terrain feature are in close combat with troops outside, then the troops outside will suffer the disorder penalties as if inside the terrain if they are attacking into it, but not if the enemy is attacking out of it. Either way the combat will not count as if “in open terrain”."

melm
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by melm » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:05 am

It's the elephants that moderately disordered your cavalry.

Athos1660
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Athos1660 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:03 am

both rough terrain and elephants :-)
with no cumulative effect

rough terrain, no elephants
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open terrain, elephants
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rough terrain, elephants
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rbodleyscott
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:55 am

The tooltips report the combat factors on the basis of which square the chargers will be when the combat is resolved, not the one they are in before they charge.
Richard Bodley Scott

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GeneralKostas
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by GeneralKostas » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:11 am

Athos1660 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:23 pm
GeneralKostas wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:02 pm
(...)
The square between your cavalry and the Italian foot is rough terrain.
So you charge from a rough terrain.
Rough terrain moderately disorders mounted troops (-22%).

(edit) btw manual, p. 91 about 'Close Combat on the Edge of Terrain' : "If troops inside a terrain feature are in close combat with troops outside, then the troops outside will suffer the disorder penalties as if inside the terrain if they are attacking into it, but not if the enemy is attacking out of it. Either way the combat will not count as if “in open terrain”."
I thought it was only the terrain in which the enemy unit stand. Thank you.

Athos1660
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Athos1660 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:06 pm

GeneralKostas wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:11 am
I thought it was only the terrain in which the enemy unit stand. Thank you.
You're welcome :-)

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