Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

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Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by Daniele » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:42 pm

Warfare in Empires

One of the major components of Empires is waging wars. Ultimately, you will win if you gain more Legacy than any other nation, but conquering your objectives and holding rich regions, some with world wonders, is definitely the most straightforward way to achieve that.

Once you have defined the objectives for your military campaigns, you’ll have to assemble your units into armies. And this process is not something to do at random, because, as you all know, battles are often won before they are actually fought.

This was one of our design goals in Empires. To have the players enjoy a bit of ‘theory crafting’, by thinking what the force composition is needed to secure your goals as efficiently as possible. We tried hard, and we believe have succeeded for the most part, in having no unit that excels at everything. Sure, if your economy is ten time as strong as your opponent, then you can probably drown him under the sheer number of your legions, to cite one of the best units of the game. But even legions have weaknesses, like not fighting that well in forests and mountains, and being pretty costly, both to recruit and maintain.

So how does it work, in a situation where you have a decent economy, but need to recruit a powerful force to defeat your enemy? You’ll have first to identify if your opponent’s strongholds are in difficult terrain or not. If yes, then the heavier units might not fight much better than the lighter ones, while being much more costly (so if you are not careful you may end up using an expensive, inefficient, army that is outnumbered, and out-classed by your opponent’s cheaper troops). If he has large walled cities, then again, some units will perform much better. You’ll also want to combine your powerful melee units with support units, as these weaker units are essential when the actual battle starts. For example, your army might be cut into shred by weaker infantry, if they benefit from skirmishers or archers in the support line and you lack these lighter troops. Then you have cavalry units. On the strategic map, they are very fast and will allow you to do all sort of things, like acting as a fire brigade, or snatching an enemy region then pillaging it. In the tactical battle, some cavalry on the flanks (or in reserve) will go a long way in winning a battle, and if this does happen then their ability to pursue will greatly inflate the losses of your defeated opponent.

Then there is the matter of the navy. Never move unescorted your units through a sea, as this is a sure recipe for a disaster if they are intercepted. Losing precious and costly phalanxes, when their transports are sunk by humble light warships really is a waste of good men. Ships will also be almost mandatory to conduct successful sieges against cities with harbors. Don’t think you can starve a garrison that has the backup of an unblockaded harbor.

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It is also said that an army marches on it’s stomach. This is quite true in Empires. Supply will be given automatically to units from adjacent friendly regions, but beyond that, if you don’t maintain your supply lines, then your units will weaken over time and will be of no use. Equally a large army in a poor region, or where the land is already pillaged, will suffer supply shortages.

But without further ado, on to battle! Once two enemy armies meet in a given region, a battle will ensue, unless if one side has retreated behind the walls of a city (in this case there will be a siege, with a possible assault, at the besieger’s initiative). The first important factor is the terrain. Terrain has two main effects in battles: how much they provide in defense, simulating that the defender had some time to set up and prepare positions; and, what is the frontage, or battle width for the following combat. Frontage is a concept known by veterans of the AGEOD games and is very important in battles. Depending if you have enough troops to fill the battleline or not, the battle will shape very differently. For example if you are fighting in a forest, then the frontage is 6 in fair weather and 5 in harsh weather. If your army has 12 or more units, then your deployment will be optimal, as 6 can fill the front rank and 6 will provide support to the melee.

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Now imagine you get caught in the open field, like a plain, a steppe. Frontage here is 12. Your army of 12 units will deploy in its entirety in the frontline! Imagine your archers and slingers to the front having to fight a melee with better equipped troops … Chances are that, unless the opponent is not too numerous, you’ll be beaten.

But frontage provides another interesting benefit to how the game plays. It really reduces the effect of ‘death stacks’, i.e. stacks that can overwhelm their enemy through sheer numbers. Because once you have filled your battle line, the rest of your army will be in reserve, and will only fight if there is a draw when they can replace weakened units in a subsequent round. Otherwise, they will do nothing (apart from cost you money and supplies). Think of the Thermopylae battle in 480 BCE as the perfect illustration of a very low frontage situation…

So our armies are setup, with melee units to the front and supporting units behind them. The very first phase of battle will be the ranged phase, where each unit capable of ranged attack will do so (the others will only throw insults at the other side). As a cosmetic enhancement, the skirmishers will appear to the front of the melee units, perform their attack and then retreat through the frontline to their final position at the back. That’s cosmetic, but it’s nice to watch! Seeing a line of legionnaires throwing their pilum, while the Velites to their front harass the enemy, and then fall back through the cohorts, is quite pleasing for the would-be Imperator.

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hen the main phase will begin, the melee phase. There will be a series of duels, between each melee combatant of each side. If one side has extra units (because he is more numerous than the opponent), then flanking attacks happen to the unlucky wing of the enemy.

The battle system is an example of the Triangle Rule. The Triangle Rule is the very core design element of all battles. We thought hard to have a system where winning was not simply the matter of maximizing a given parameter and forcing your way to victory by exploiting this aspect. It had to be subtler. We want the player to balance and consider three things at once (so the Triangle Rule…):

How powerful a unit is;
How experienced and what is its current fighting condition; and,
How good is the general in charge
For us, it was very important that none of these 3 aspects outweigh the others. Said differently, you must design your armies and conduct war in such way that each of these 3 criteria are the best possible, knowing that having ‘only’ one of them as very good will not compensate for the others.

So back to our duels. The aim is to achieve the highest possible duel score. This score comes from two things: the total combat value of the unit, and the dice rolled.

The total combat value of the unit is made of the base combat strength of the unit. For example, a medium warband will have 3, a legion 5 (well, there are 3 generations of legion, so I’m speaking of the pre-Marian one here), and a phalanx 7 in attack but only 5 in defense (most units behave differently in attack and defense). Note also that this value by itself might have been modified by the terrain. A legion fighting in wood would be worth only 3, like, for example, a mundane medium infantry.

To this value is added the support value, between 1 and 3. The best support units are the Archers (but they are rare for most nations, costly and have no extra abilities). Many skirmishers will provide a value of 2, and the simple fact of having another friendly unit as a support (even another melee unit) will provide a 1. So, as you see, having superior numbers is important, but having a similar ratio of melee and support units is more important (although the melee units are more likely to be lost in combat so you need some replacements for them, even if you are victorious).

This combination of factors will tend to produce a value between 2 to 8, in most cases. Now for the second part, the dice rolls. That’s where the two other sides of our ‘Triangle’ kick-in…

Each unit will add up his best dice (ten-sided dice) to his combat value. And a unit will get one dice roll plus one per rating of the general in charge. This rating varies from 0 to 2 (again generals have attack and defence scores and will use this is appropriate if they are leading the attacking or defending army). So the best general would be a 2-2 general, with this possibly modified by an appropriate trait (many Generals are better – or worse – in certain circumstances …). Now there is an added twist to the formula, and this is where unit experience and effectiveness (a combination of fatigue and morale) comes in to play, the third and last facet of our Triangle rule.

Image

From all the dice you roll, between one and three depending, each one is re-rolled until at least a minimum value is reached. And this minimum value is given by the sum of your experience and effectiveness! Let’s take an example. A veteran German warband has level 2 of experience and has an effectiveness of 3. It means that you are guaranteed that each of your dice roll is at least a 5! If now you have a good general, like a rating 2 general, then you get to roll 3 die, and you take the best. Chances are that the ‘random part’ of the duel will be from 8 to 10 reliably! Then this random part is added to our final combat value, and you get our final duel score.

And that’s how you can end up with Germanic warbands fighting in forest with a competent general soundly beating Imperial Legions led by a complacent and not that skilled Consul.

Although this appears to be an extreme case, be assured that if you understand and play with the system, you’ll be able to achieve your goals much more easily, and with much less resources committed. And sometimes, in single player against the AI or in PBEM against live opponents, this will definitely be the difference between victory and defeat.

There are others features for battles that play an important role too. For example flanking units, if your opponent is unable to fill out (or if you have destroyed some of his units in the early duels) all the line will play a significant role. Skirmishers will fatigue their opponent, even if they get defeated. Cavalry can evade some damage if they fight slower units. Now combine several traits in one, and you end up with units like Horse Archers, in the Parthian or Nomad style, that add insult to injury by hitting you with arrows while avoiding most damage in return. So your powerful legions are vulnerable to particular opponents in the terrain where they, this time, have all the advantages.

We think, and our beta testers do too, that Empire’s battles are quite fun while being involved, with some real thinking to do if you like to fine tune your armies (and if not, that’s ok too, but it will be prudent to play against an easy AI until you learn the ropes of the system, as the AI can be quite relentless). But there is more, as you probably know. Most of the battles of Empires can be alternatively played in Field of Glory II, as fully developed tactical battles and the result will be ported back into Empires once you are done. And there is no need for any DLC from FOG2 to get all the possible units from Empires. So … best of both worlds?

devoncop
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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by devoncop » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:37 pm

And the anticipation just increased another few notches....

Great explanation and nice mechanics 👍

13obo
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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by 13obo » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:06 pm

Quite an innovative battle system! The three mechanics that increase your chances for good battle performance (minimal roll, re-roll, and combat rating) and must go hand-in-hand in order to win is fascinating. Hopefully the strategic map mechanics are fun too, because the battles seem a bit on the simple side!

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by devoncop » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:32 pm

13obo wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:06 pm
Quite an innovative battle system! The three mechanics that increase your chances for good battle performance (minimal roll, re-roll, and combat rating) and must go hand-in-hand in order to win is fascinating. Hopefully the strategic map mechanics are fun too, because the battles seem a bit on the simple side!

I assume you are aware the battles can be fought out tactically as an alternative to using the strategic resolution system described above.....the tactical battles using Field of Glory 2 tactical system is anything but simple and has great capacity for using all the nuances of your army and the terrain.

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by 13obo » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:35 pm

I was not aware! Thanks for clarifying and that sounds great.

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by choppinlt » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:14 am

After chatting on another forum I just wanted to get a clarification. Porting battles to FOG2 will be supported against multiplayer opponents, correct?

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by devoncop » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:33 am

choppinlt wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:14 am
After chatting on another forum I just wanted to get a clarification. Porting battles to FOG2 will be supported against multiplayer opponents, correct?
My understanding is that the opponent in the FoG Empires campaign will play in the FOG2 resolutions but not random (or chosen) opponents who are not involved in the Empires game but I would be interested to get confirmation on this.

Personally I am not bothered if it is just the Campaign opponents involved but I know some players would like to export games to the FOG2 Multiplayer lobby .

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by Pocus » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:24 am

Not for now, sorry. If there is a large demand, then it might be considered, but development will not be trivial. Also it asks for the solving of several issues, like what others players do when you are slugging out with your buddy in the tactical battle. Are you doing your tactical match in one go and real time, so that people don't wait several days? And even if you play live in 2 hours, you might have several battles to fight, against different opponents. Said opponents that could also be tied in others matches. And if you process all tactical battles sequentially, then how you deal with sequences where you have say 15 battles, #1, #10 and #14? Are all people waiting their turn so they can play their own tactical battles?

Really this seems rather nightmarish to develop, for a result which would be uncertain. Probably hundreds of development hours for an extra feature that would be only used by a few players. Now we might be wrong, and a landslide of requests will perhaps hit us :-)
AGEOD Team - Makers of Empires, ACW2, WON, EAW, PON, AJE, RUS, ROP, WIA.

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by Pocus » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:25 am

If you have questions or comments on what is actually in the game, I'll be happy to answer them also :)
AGEOD Team - Makers of Empires, ACW2, WON, EAW, PON, AJE, RUS, ROP, WIA.

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by devoncop » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:34 am

Pocus wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:24 am
Not for now, sorry. If there is a large demand, then it might be considered, but development will not be trivial. Also it asks for the solving of several issues, like what others players do when you are slugging out with your buddy in the tactical battle. Are you doing your tactical match in one go and real time, so that people don't wait several days? And even if you play live in 2 hours, you might have several battles to fight, against different opponents. Said opponents that could also be tied in others matches. And if you process all tactical battles sequentially, then how you deal with sequences where you have say 15 battles, #1, #10 and #14? Are all people waiting their turn so they can play their own tactical battles?

Really this seems rather nightmarish to develop, for a result which would be uncertain. Probably hundreds of development hours for an extra feature that would be only used by a few players. Now we might be wrong, and a landslide of requests will perhaps hit us :-)

Makes sense 👍

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by ajarnlance » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:27 pm

Somebody needs to post this dev diary on the ageod site...

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by Pocus » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:43 pm

I have requested that it be done yes, they will do it very soon!
AGEOD Team - Makers of Empires, ACW2, WON, EAW, PON, AJE, RUS, ROP, WIA.

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by kvnrthr » Wed May 01, 2019 7:41 pm

On a semi-related note, will there be any representation for the brilliant but rare military geniuses (e.g. Hannibal)? It seems generals are limited to 2-2 as their maximum rating, but perhaps special characteristics could make a general very good.

Also, will historical leaders be included or will they all be randomly generated?

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by ajarnlance » Wed May 01, 2019 8:06 pm

kvnrthr wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:41 pm
On a semi-related note, will there be any representation for the brilliant but rare military geniuses (e.g. Hannibal)? It seems generals are limited to 2-2 as their maximum rating, but perhaps special characteristics could make a general very good.

Also, will historical leaders be included or will they all be randomly generated?
Historical leaders have a random chance to appear but are not guaranteed. As for legendary generals such as Hannibal and Pyrrhus it was found that giving them a '3' level made them too powerful and unbalanced the game. I believe that the devs are looking at other ways of making them special, presumably through other bonuses related to special abilities.

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by Witan » Thu May 02, 2019 3:17 am

Pocus wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:25 am
If you have questions or comments on what is actually in the game, I'll be happy to answer them also :)
@ Pocus:

I'm a bit confused now... :?
Won't it be possible to fight FoG Empires multiplayer campaign battles through FoG2 against Campaign opponents?

It was actually the most important feature for me in this game :(
I was playing Paradox Interactive games so far, but i have always missed direct multiplayer battles...

I have already convinced 5 friends to buy the game just because of the combination of camapign map and FoG2 multiplayer battles...
Without this feature I think they won't buy it. :(

I really hope that I got it wrong and that there will be FoG2 multiplayer battles...

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by Lord Durchfall » Thu May 02, 2019 9:04 pm

Also I am very disappointed :shock: :( :cry:
I love playing FoG 2 and I struggle if I buy field of glory: empire. The single-player is in very many games from time to time boring. I am no individual case, but many people would play the multi-player for a long time. But when I can`t play against other player in a campaign, I could buy Imperator Rome, because I and many other people have no fun in the single-player, because the AI is stupit, when you know how the AI would fight. But I love it to have the economy, politic AND the battles. The battles are your greatest strength and then I don`t understand why you kicked the FoG 2 battles out of the multiplayer.
Many people don`t know, that the FoG 2 battles are not in multi-player, so I ask you, that you can do a official survey for that. I think very much would love the battles in Multiplayer. I am sure, that more people would buy your game, when FoG 2 battles are integrated in multi-player. I am one of them...

But I also give you a big compliment for the other systems. I looked at them and they are really good. But I will play just multi-player and then it is not necessary and I can buy Imperator Rome.

Sorry for my bad english :wink: . Have a nice day :)

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by pipfromslitherine » Thu May 02, 2019 9:53 pm

We have not supported multiplayer battles using FoG2 for a number of reasons. The key being that (for games with more than 2 players) having to wait for a full MP FoG2 game to play out (potentially multiple battles) would grind the game to a halt and likely cause it to fall to pieces. There are also considerable technical issues given that the two games run on their own MP servers.

That said, if there is enough interest we might look at whether it would be possible to expand the FoG2 battles to multiplayer. We try to be responsive to the community. But it certainly won't be part of the initial release.

Cheers

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Re: Field of Glory: Empires Dev Diary #9 Battle System

Post by SGZ » Fri May 03, 2019 8:35 am

Pocus wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:24 am
Not for now, sorry. If there is a large demand, then it might be considered, but development will not be trivial. Also it asks for the solving of several issues, like what others players do when you are slugging out with your buddy in the tactical battle. Are you doing your tactical match in one go and real time, so that people don't wait several days? And even if you play live in 2 hours, you might have several battles to fight, against different opponents. Said opponents that could also be tied in others matches. And if you process all tactical battles sequentially, then how you deal with sequences where you have say 15 battles, #1, #10 and #14? Are all people waiting their turn so they can play their own tactical battles?

Really this seems rather nightmarish to develop, for a result which would be uncertain. Probably hundreds of development hours for an extra feature that would be only used by a few players. Now we might be wrong, and a landslide of requests will perhaps hit us :-)
sounds totally reasonable. I'm happy w the battles in FOGE for multiplayer. If I'm desperate to port to FOG2 I'll play single player!

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