Later Crusader Mixed Formation

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Lycanthropic
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Later Crusader Mixed Formation

Post by Lycanthropic » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:16 am

So my mixed formation of defensive spear front rank + crossbow back rank is charged.......

In the impact I get 2 dice per front rank base and 1 shooting dice for the crossbow in the second rank, but what POA is the front rank? + for 2 ranks of spear? or no POA as the 2nd rank is shooting?
Same question in melee, although you get the same POA as the front rank, the rear rank isn't spear, so + for 2 ranks of spear? or no POA?

richnz
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Post by richnz » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:23 am

You don't get any spear POAs. But you do get to cancel many of the opponent's POA (e.g lancer, swords) as long as you remain steady

hazelbark
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Post by hazelbark » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:07 am

As Rich said the nuance is in reading how others are effected by you being spear in good order.
THey do not get the + for various things.

You however do not get the POA for 2 ranks of spear.

e.g. So KN Lancer hitting your formation.
Lancer vs good spear = no POA.
Spear in single rank = no POA
So KN gets 2 dice needing 4s.
Spear gets 2 dice needing 4s.
The extra base of XB get 1 dice. Shooting KN I think is no POA. But shooting in impact is a - POA. So that die needs 5s.

Is that helpful?
FWIW I am thinking these BGs should be 4 spear and 4 crossbow now. So when enemy foot approach you can contract into two bases wide. Spear, Spear, XB, XB. Then you get the POA for a 2nd rank of spear,

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Post by Andy1972 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:04 am

I knew about the POA's, but that is a good idea with the formation!
Po-tae-toes! Mash 'em up and put 'em in a stew!

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Post by hammy » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:28 am

I was very impressed by the efectiveness of the Byzantine Skutatoi we used at Usk. OK, they were bow not crossbow and came in BGs of 8 but they were good against cavalry and skirmishers. On the other hand the Crusaders are armoured while the Byzantines were only protected.

In five games played with two BGs of mixed spear and bow they were never broken and managed to break five enemy lancer or knight BGs as well as dominate enemy skirmishers.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:01 am

hazelbark wrote:FWIW I am thinking these BGs should be 4 spear and 4 crossbow now. So when enemy foot approach you can contract into two bases wide. Spear, Spear, XB, XB. Then you get the POA for a 2nd rank of spear,
The reason they are in 6s is specifically to prevent any such shenanigans. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Crusaders did this. Even if they did double ranks, as the historical formation was only 3 men deep (one spearman and 2 crossbowmen), it still wouldn't amount to 2 base depths of spears. Hence the BGs are restricted to 6s as an easy way of making non-historical formations non-viable.

The Byzantines are allowed BGs of 8 because their manuals do specify forming up 16 ranks deep when required.

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Post by babyshark » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:52 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
hazelbark wrote:FWIW I am thinking these BGs should be 4 spear and 4 crossbow now. So when enemy foot approach you can contract into two bases wide. Spear, Spear, XB, XB. Then you get the POA for a 2nd rank of spear,
The reason they are in 6s is specifically to prevent any such shenanigans. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Crusaders did this. Even if they did double ranks, as the historical formation was only 3 men deep (one spearman and 2 crossbowmen), it still wouldn't amount to 2 base depths of spears. Hence the BGs are restricted to 6s as an easy way of making non-historical formations non-viable.

The Byzantines are allowed BGs of 8 because their manuals do specify forming up 16 ranks deep when required.
May I say that I very much appreciate this aspect of the FoG rules design? Desired results are achieved with a minimum of special rules. Elegant!

Marc

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Post by hazelbark » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:06 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
hazelbark wrote:FWIW I am thinking these BGs should be 4 spear and 4 crossbow now. So when enemy foot approach you can contract into two bases wide. Spear, Spear, XB, XB. Then you get the POA for a 2nd rank of spear,
The reason they are in 6s is specifically to prevent any such shenanigans. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Crusaders did this. Even if they did double ranks, as the historical formation was only 3 men deep (one spearman and 2 crossbowmen), it still wouldn't amount to 2 base depths of spears. Hence the BGs are restricted to 6s as an easy way of making non-historical formations non-viable.

The Byzantines are allowed BGs of 8 because their manuals do specify forming up 16 ranks deep when required.
:oops:

Ahh good point. I was speaking from the byzantine reference and had forgttoen the the 6 stand in the crusaders.

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