Can't understand the Morale thing

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PoorOldSpike
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Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:16 am

For example if I've got 2 identical tanks (One at 100% morale, and the other at 90% morale) both firing at the same target, will the 100 percenter have better accuracy?
Same applies to infantry and other units, is morale tied into how effective a units fire is?

shermanVC
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by shermanVC » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:27 pm

No, they do not.
I tested with Sherman Firefly, but with the shown date, they are not.
The Tank with 200 or 60 morale will have the same accuracy.

For the Infantry or Artillery, it works in the same way.

Morale does not affect attacks, I believe only distance do.
And for infantry and artillery, how many members are in the squad will affect the effectiveness against other units.
The Infantry squad with 5 will perform much better than a group of 2.
And for all units against infantry or artillery, the left numbers in the enemy squad will affect your effectiveness against them.
For example, when you have a Bren team, and there ie a mortar team 2 tiles away from you. When the enemy mortar team has two men, your attack effectiveness is 31, but when there is only 1 man left, your attack will almost be doubled, so 60 in this case.
I believe when tanks against tanks, movement and repeat firing will also affect the accuracy. For example, when you moved one Sherman and then fire, its accuracy will be lower than the Sherman which did not move. And when you put some shot to the same targets, the accuracy of the tank will increase a little. But this does not affect against the Infantry or artillery unit. When infantry or tank moved, their effectiveness against Inf or Art will not change.
Surprisingly, rank does not affect effectiveness against infantry. An elite Bren team will have the same effectiveness against enemy Infantry as a normal Bren team does.

I believe Morale is only used to determine, basically, Morale.
When one unit's morale is below 50, they are suppressed. When they are suppressed, they are vulnerable, because they cannot fire, and will have less AP to move.
When morale is under -100, the unit will surrender. For example, when the unit's morale is -100, and you attack it again, it may route, so it is destroyed.

So, accuracy is mainly based on distance, and their AP accuracy and HE accuracy in the Squad file. And effectiveness is mainly based on distance, the number of enemies in the squad, and their AP or HE effectiveness.
When tank aginst tank, it is mainly about can hit or can penetrate, which I am not going to talk.

It may be wrong for some information, but I did do some tests before the post. I hope it will at least help you.

Attach is the test with ShermanVC with different morale.
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PoorOldSpike
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:03 pm

Thanks for the magnificent reply, I should have set up some tests in the Editor like you did..:)

jcb989
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by jcb989 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:46 pm

I think but I am not sure, infantry that has moved fast fires with less HE firepower? Moving them in 'Hunt' mode seems to maintain their firepower.

shermanVC
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by shermanVC » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:34 pm

jcb989 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:46 pm
I think but I am not sure, infantry that has moved fast fires with less HE firepower? Moving them in 'Hunt' mode seems to maintain their firepower.
Hunt movement is not usual for the game. Most time we do not see it.

And seriously, I will not even use hunt movement... it is pointless when you do have a chance to move without being a target. If that is the case, I will just rush with a grenade...

But I believe it does not affect that much, a moved Bren team does have the same firepower as others. I cannot remember it is true or not. Maybe I 'll try tonight.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:23 pm

On page 30 of the BA2:Eastern Front manual it says-
"If morale drops below 50, then units will not react to nor be able to fire
at the enemy..Note that armour will still react to being
attacked, even when suppressed, but with large penalties to accuracy."

So that seems to be the only time that low morale (below 50) reduces a tanks accuracy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding movement, pages 19 and 21 of the manual have some interesting comments-
"Motorised and tank units usually have to choose between “Move Fast” and “Hunt”..
Infantry units also have “Move Fast” and “Dash” options that allows them to cover ground very quickly
although any firing conducted by that unit in that turn will be much less accurate.
Using the “Hunt” option will have the opposite effect and it may allow you to get in the first shot against an enemy target.
....When firing at an enemy unit the tooltip will tell you your percentage chance of
getting a hit. Moving at “Hunt Speed” gives you a much better chance of hitting an enemy target than moving at “Fast Speed".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Incidentally, I mostly play BA2:EF because I like the random battle generator (Skirmish mode) which gives us a brandnew map and units every game.
I don't know if the rules are different between BA and BA2:EF)

PS- can somebody please explain the "Assault" percentages for me, because my assaults are often repulsed even when the chances are 80% or 90% !
Sometimes the Assault chance is well over 100% (e.g 127%) and it usually succeeds, so should we only Assault if the chances are over 100% ?

jcb989
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by jcb989 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm

Re: Assaults, I think it is random number odds on the straight percentage shown. I have had a few 10% chance assaults succeed.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:23 am

jcb989 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm
Re: Assaults, I think it is random number odds on the straight percentage shown. I have had a few 10% chance assaults succeed.
Thanks, personally I'm too terrified to Assault unless the odds are over 100%..:)

PS- Something else has just come up which I don't understand, namely that when firing an AT gun against tanks, sometimes 2 options come up to use either normal AP fire, or "Aimed Fire".
Aimed Fire has a much better chance of a kill, so naturally that's the one to use.
But what does the term 'Aimed Fire' mean anyway and why exactly is it better?

shermanVC
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by shermanVC » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:19 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:23 am
jcb989 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm
Re: Assaults, I think it is random number odds on the straight percentage shown. I have had a few 10% chance assaults succeed.
Thanks, personally I'm too terrified to Assault unless the odds are over 100%..:)

PS- Something else has just come up which I don't understand, namely that when firing an AT gun against tanks, sometimes 2 options come up to use either normal AP fire, or "Aimed Fire".
Aimed Fire has a much better chance of a kill, so naturally that's the one to use.
But what does the term 'Aimed Fire' mean anyway and why exactly is it better?
Ranks, it is surprising a BA player does not notice that...
Only Elite status will get two options of attack. It is better because of its bust to the hit and penetrate calculation. You can just read the information if you pulse for a second when you aim at your enemy.
And if that's not what you are talking. Fine, aimed fire is just a name for the elite units' "Special attack". When rifle squad or lmg squad got the sniper skill, all the ones with a cannon get the "aimed fire".
I believe it is easy enough to understand the word "aimed', it is just you aim at the target. In this case, come on, do you really think an Ace will do the same chance of hitting as a Noob?
The tank and armored vehicles, they do not only have a front, side, back, and a bloody turrent, there are weak points. Hitting a different place will be different from a hit, a penetrate or even destroying a vehicle.
You should play at least War Thunder, I do not learn the information from the game, I learnt about weak points in the British AT rifle manual which they tell you where to hit with your Boys Rifle against a tank. But you really should try War Thunder if it is hard to understand.

shermanVC
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by shermanVC » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:40 am

jcb989 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm
Re: Assaults, I think it is random number odds on the straight percentage shown. I have had a few 10% chance assaults succeed.
It is just a percentage, it just you have a chance to hit above 2 on a dice, but you can still hit 1 by 1/6 chance. It is not about calculation, it is about the chance to kill them.
And to be serious, the Percentage is just a standard to measure the game generated data.
Hard to understand, it's ok, my bad at explaining it.
But BA does really give you a chance of something, BA is basically acting in a certain way, same as other chess game.
When you moved tow tiles and then attack a rifle squad, you will get the same value. Try this, move the same rifle squad with a same path and distance and attack the same enemy, you will get the same result.
When people feel the percentage really tell them something, bullshit, not at all. It feels like percentage is telling you a chance of 98 to kill the enemy, but the game can still generate a 99 based on your movement.
If you play the same campaign more than 10 times, you will see how each movement can affect the game. Sometimes a moved attack may act better than a non-moved attack. Because we have no way to calculate like a computer, the percentage is used to comfort you. We do not know what the data will be generated, so a larger percentage may look safe.
It did not guarantee anything, just do not doubt it, it did not guarantee anything unless you have something like 100% or more.
It is weird people treated percentage this serious, do you know these online phone games where you need to spend money on cards? They tell you the chance of getting a character is 0.02, you may not get it with 500 tries when your friend can get it with just one hit. Anything about the percentage?

I suggest saving the game trough a battle multiple times and try to act the unit with different progress, then find out what is the best chance.

You know what? I played an online game, one of the Metz Map, when my opponent used Jerry with around 6 panther tanks, he moved first, and then me.
I defeated him by knocking out 5 of his panther and 2 of his panzer IV at the first round with not a single lost unit. That is not based on percentage, bro, it is based on trying.

shermanVC
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by shermanVC » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:45 am

shermanVC wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:40 am
jcb989 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm
Re: Assaults, I think it is random number odds on the straight percentage shown. I have had a few 10% chance assaults succeed.
It is just a percentage, it just you have a great chance to hit above 2 on a dice, but you can still hit 1 by 1/6 chance. It is not about calculation, it is about the chance to kill them.
And to be serious, the Percentage is just a standard to measure the game generated data.
Hard to understand, it's ok, my bad at explaining it.
But BA does not give you a chance of something, BA is basically acting in a certain way, same as other chess game.
When you moved two tiles and then attack a rifle squad, you will get the same value. Try this, move the same rifle squad with a same path and distance and attack the same enemy, you will get the same result.
When people feel the percentage really tell them something, bullshit, not at all. It feels like percentage is telling you a chance of 98 to kill the enemy, but the game can still generate a 99 based on your movement.
If you play the same campaign more than 10 times, you will see how each movement can affect the game. Sometimes a moved attack may act better than a non-moved attack. Because we have no way to calculate like a computer, the percentage is used to comfort you. We do not know what the data will be generated, so a larger percentage may look safe.
It did not guarantee anything, just do not doubt it, it did not guarantee anything unless you have something like 100% or more.
It is weird people treated percentage this serious, do you know these online phone games where you need to spend money on cards? They tell you the chance of getting a character is 0.02, you may not get it with 500 tries when your friend can get it with just one hit. Anything about the percentage?

I suggest saving the game trough a battle multiple times and try to act the unit with different progress, then find out what is the best chance.

You know what? I played an online game, one of the Metz Map, when my opponent used Jerry with around 6 panther tanks, he moved first, and then me.
I defeated him by knocking out 5 of his panther and 2 of his panzer IV at the first round with not a single lost unit. That is not based on percentage, bro, it is based on trying.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:34 pm

shermanVC wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:19 am
..aimed fire is just a name for the elite units' "Special attack". When rifle squad or lmg squad got the sniper skill, all the ones with a cannon get the "aimed fire".

.....[Assaults]-When people feel the percentage really tell them something, bullshit, not at all.
Thanks, it was only the strange words "Aimed Fire" that confused me.

Assaults- if the percentages tell us nothing, how do we know which assaults have a good chance of succeeding?

shermanVC
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by shermanVC » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:51 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:34 pm
shermanVC wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:19 am
..aimed fire is just a name for the elite units' "Special attack". When rifle squad or lmg squad got the sniper skill, all the ones with a cannon get the "aimed fire".

.....[Assaults]-When people feel the percentage really tell them something, bullshit, not at all.
Thanks, it was only the strange words "Aimed Fire" that confused me.

Assaults- if the percentages tell us nothing, how do we know which assaults have a good chance of succeeding?
Well, there is no way eventually. Over 100% is great because it almost guarantees your success.
Or just do not use the assault, pin them down, and then grenade them. Why even risk your units?
I am not trying to say the percentage is nothing... my point is u should not totally depend on it.
You will still go with a higher percentage because it looks safe. But it does not mean, a low percentage will really piss you off, or a high percentage will guarantee the result.

BA is a cooler version of chess style video games. It is not RTS. Most chess games are depended on trying, not just the strategy (unless you played the same map many times and start to find out what is the best strategy)... if you are not a master player yet... and even a master player still needs to try.
Next time, when you want to do one assault, maybe you can save and then do one assault first, it works well, then fine, and if it works badly, maybe load and try something different. For example, instead of rushing your unit to the enemy, move them one tile and another until reaching your enemy, it will generate a different value for your result. You can never know hat the result value is, but you can try to make the result value lower than your percentage. In this case, a higher percentage helps you, it makes your life easier.
It may be boring, so just go easy mode may be a better choice... most people paid to have fun, not for repeating to beat the challenge.

In conclusion, no guarantee, a high percentage just makes it safer, but not a guarantee.

And a test again, I suggest you try a test by yourself, u may start to understand what I am saying.
A perfect example in my test is when I moved Rifle Squad A to assault, and then Squad B to assault, B failed.
Restart the game, when I used C to assault first and then B to assault, both succeeded.
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PoorOldSpike
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Re: Can't understand the Morale thing

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:23 am

shermanVC wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:51 pm
..Assaults..Over 100% is great because it almost guarantees your success..
Thanks, I'll remember that..:)
Incidentally I'm a 71-year-old wargame veteran and am currently a moderator at the Mission 4 Today forum, and have been an admin/mod at other forums like the one below.
I write internet tutorials for various wargames such as Armed Assault, Order of Battle, Panzer Command, Combat Mission etc, but have only been playing Battle Academy for a few months, I never realised until now what a magnificent game it is, and I shall take your advice and run tests in the Editor..:)


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