What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

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MickMannock
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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by MickMannock » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:38 am

Yogi the Great wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:24 am
I like the game, but having a lot more difficulty winning. Seems that in many of the scenarios or campaign scenarios the enemy forces are too overwhelming in power and numbers that even on low difficulty levels I haven't figured out how to beat. This was not a problem for me in PZ1 or Order of battle.

Maybe I'll eventually figure out what I am missing. Often things are looking good but the enemy just keeps arriving in numbers the game does not allow me to produce or reinforce.
I had a bit of the same feeling too. But you have to have a different mindset in this game compared to PC1. You have to have a more balanced core, and I think most important of all, not to forget your recon units. They do a world of good in your core.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by ErissN6 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:58 pm

Yogi the Great wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:24 am
having a lot more difficulty winning. Seems that in many of the scenarios or campaign scenarios the enemy forces are too overwhelming in power and numbers
Yeah, in campaign I began to win pyrrus way, then now I must start Kasserine without even a completed core... :/ and I mean just refiled old core, not buying a new to the max, many units start without even half their strenght.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by shawkhan2 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:18 pm

The new core slot system has made this game much more ' realistic'. No more Uber cores filled with Tigers/Konigtigers that were totally historically impossible in PC1.
Naturally the game will be harder with more historical cores. I especially appreciate the fact that all units now take casualties in a more realistic way. A much more realistic experience in my own opinion.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by PanzerCro » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:17 pm

I still dont own the game because my PC is currently out, but game looks nice and clean, with some neat new gameplay features. I can't wait to get it.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by NightPhoenix » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:47 pm

Hmm, It's hard to say since i'm really mixed about this one.

First of all because de dev's are currently working on some of the issues that are problematic right now, for example: the graphics. I'm having some difficulty playing on good graphics (and recording at the same time) because the game is eating a huge chunk of my GPU - 60-70% on pretty low graphics and only 1920x1080 screen and 30 fps. And my specs are not bad. So i hope this will be fixed in the future so things look a bit better. I also hope i'll be able to see those sweet graphics that i can see now when zooming in. Cause with these settings it's kind of meh. But i think that with some improvement that would do a lot for the graphics. I do think 3d can work for games like this, buuut it definitely needs some polishing.

In terms of gameplay, there are some things that are nice, like the encirclement mechanic. I like how they work for the most part. Really like the core slot system. Nice to see a change in how heroes work, though i've heard some alarming reports of abuse for certain combinations of heroes, so that will need to be looked at. Still i like the diversity of them, it's cool.

I kinda feel that the combat odds are just....wierd. Not sure where to put the finger to show where it hurts. Maybe it's the introduction of accuracy, or that the combat stats don't feel right. Like for the BF-109 that was a top fighter early in the war, to get even results against polish fighters just feels off. The BT-7 which is on par with the Pz-IIIF in stats even though kill/loss ratings for german tanks against Russian ones was about 5-6 to 1 for example...It kinda works out for gameplay balancing purposes but it still puts me off a bit that the historical accuracy doesn't feel right.

The campaign tree is nice. Lot's of missions, though it is much more linear in outcomes than previous installments. (It has many alternative missions, but only 3 branching points: 1 at France to go to Africa, 1 at stalingrad and Gazala(?) for historical-ahistorical branching points) I kind of miss that. Defeating the russians in 43, and then stopping the allies in Normandy for a minor campaign victory was a thing. Taking Britain, but failing to take on the Russian steamroller was a thing. No longer, as it's all or nothing now. Not even a congratulations or something for beating the game, it just takes you back to the beginning screen. I see posts from other people saying they don't care, but i really miss that kind of immersion into the war, the flavor, the story, the general telling you your plan of using only 15-overstrength Tiger tanks and bridge engineers to beat the enemy at Kursk was of a brilliance nobody has ever seen before.... The major, and minor victory system...And that's where i think for me the biggest disappointment lies: PzC2 might be pretty decent in graphics, in gameplay, but it fails to entice me and make me really excited to play. Which makes me feel it's pretty mediocre. Certainly not bad. It's okeyish.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by o_t_d_x » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:19 pm

I love Panzer Corps 2. And whith every day i love it more because i learn new game mechanics, like capturing like crazy. :twisted:
Of course this jewel needs a lot of polishing and a more user friendly editor. (or is every modder out there a lua pro ??? i prefer the old editor where i could do everything i wanted WITHOUT the need for programming - ok a little html but nothing else)

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by eskuche » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:16 pm

ErissN6 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:58 pm
Yeah, in campaign I began to win pyrrus way, then now I must start Kasserine without even a completed core... :/ and I mean just refiled old core, not buying a new to the max, many units start without even half their strenght.
Easiest way IMO is to take losses and bait enemies is with meat shields, preferably under auxiliary perk. Storches, bridging pios, and early tanks are point and prestige cheap, while normal Wehr infantry and Bf-109s can do some nice damage before dying. Bonus points if you get defensive heroes that can be put (once per map) on throwaway units, e.g., resilience on split units makes them take disproportionate numbers of shots to destroy.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Vaughn » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:32 pm

I'm adoring the new transport rules. Being able to disembark before the turn ends is great. Amphibious landings are no longer a colossal pain in the ass. It is a great improvement.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by ErissN6 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:45 pm

eskuche wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:16 pm
take losses and bait enemies is with meat shields, preferably under auxiliary perk.
Yes, but as Auxiliaries is supposed a good thing, so I bought all I could, but it was not paying enough.
Next campaign I'll buy only what is strict necessary as risky scoot or meatshield.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Retributarr » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:32 pm

AI Spotting:

I don't know if this particular point regarding 'AI' spotting has been brought up?

Anyway... I knew that "I would not" be in 'Visual-Spotting-Range' of an AI-Infantry Unit... so I moved my Artillery to just beyond the Infrantry Unit's spotting range. Well guess what?... the 'AI' must have "Magical-Vision-Abilities"... as that 'same unit' during the following turn... savagely attacked my 'Artillery Unit' delivering 7 damage points.

We can't trust or believe what the 'AI' can see or not see... not at all!.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Kerensky » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:54 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:32 pm
AI Spotting:

I don't know if this particular point regarding 'AI' spotting has been brought up?

Anyway... I knew that "I would not" be in 'Visual-Spotting-Range' of an AI-Infantry Unit... so I moved my Artillery to just beyond the Infrantry Unit's spotting range. Well guess what?... the 'AI' must have "Magical-Vision-Abilities"... as that 'same unit' during the following turn... savagely attacked my 'Artillery Unit' delivering 7 damage points.

We can't trust or believe what the 'AI' can see or not see... not at all!.
Expecting vision radius fog of war to protect something as valuable as artillery is just not a good idea.

It's very easy for any number of situations to quickly turn this plan into a disaster.
1. Enemy units on high ground have spotting radius bonuses (as do your own)
2. Enemy aircraft flying across the battlefield reveal massive swaths of terrain.
3. The unit could just be on an aggressive mode, and naturally moved towards you on its way to attack something else it was moving towards.

You have to have proper screening forces and usage of Zone of Control to protect valuable units. Not just hiding behind assumed fog of war.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by Retributarr » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:13 pm

AI Spotting:

The details of my spotting incident are such. In the town just to the right of 'Namsos' is where the Norwegian Infantry Unit was stationed.

My 'Artillery-Unit' was located just behind and underneath the lake closest to that infantry units position. I tried to access the town hex where the infantry unit was deployed to see if it was in fact on higher ground (Spotting Advantage Location)... but am/was unable to do that function. However... visually on the Game Map... that town location appears to be on flat ground terrain.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by dalfrede » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:54 pm

Retributarr wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:13 pm
. . . that town location appears to be on flat ground terrain.
The editor doesn't concatenate terrain. IE hill or town, not hill and town
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by econ21 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:28 am

Thanks for the informative responses - I bought the game yesterday and tinkered with it (5/6 tutorials plus first missions). I don't regret the purchase - it is still Panzer Corps, so if you liked Panzer Corps 1, there is little reason you won't like Panzer Corps 2. The core gameplay is there, with some nice additions (overruns and encirclement especially). Some impressions:

1. Fantastic tutorials - really nicely done. Educational, fun and not too long.

2. Graphics - ugh, its Panzer General 3D again. The units look blurry and are hard to even spot at times. Terrain is paradoxically a little too visible (relative to units) but still a bit of a struggle to get used to. I profess a bias: I am old school - played PG1 on release and have always found those graphics fine. Panzer General 2 may be sweet spot for graphics for me. Lowered the scroll right now, but still finding it jarring and disorienting looking over the PzC2 map: I guess I will get used to it, but on first play, it conveys information much less clearly than PzC1 did. I put hex grids up to max, as I value info over graphics for this kind of game. If there was a button I could press to make it 2D like PzC, I'd be tempted to press it. On the plus side, no sign of my computer overheating, so this game is a go for me. [Edit: just seen the thread on tweaking nvidia settings - this may help with the blurriness.]

3. Artillery seems a little weaker: it only seems to suppress a little bit, but on the other hand, suppression persists which I like. It was always a little odd in PC1 to completely suppress a unit and then have them all jump back up after the first attack. Maybe I have missed it but it seems that terrain entrenchment can't be reduced to 0 (cities always 3 or whatever). Makes sense to me - think of Monte Cassino, bombing a city still creates ruins that are effective cover. Overall, I think I like the new balance - the AI could never really exploit it (often firing last), but artillery was a bit OP in PzCorps.

4. Infantry seems weaker (always was end war in PC1): it seems to take terrible losses - hard to imagine how I can get experienced infantry. I guess the higher losses are because we have a 15 strength scale, not a 10 strength one. I try to avoid attacking with infantry without artillery plus massed attacks. And even then it takes about 3:1 advantage in infantry units to take city. I guess that's historical but the casualties I experience even with such advantages are high. There is an interesting set of videos on YouTube by an engineer with a photographic memory playing the GC and he virtually never loses a single point. I don't achieve that level of efficiency but it would be very hard to do in PzC2. In the tutorial, there was 1 strength point of a Sherman tank that I kept attacking with infantry and they could not kill it. That felt off - it's probably a function of the strict hard target/soft target distinction. There might be some scope for fudging that a little (e.g. a chance for some infantry even attacking in the open to get in an attack at a tank's close defense). But's it's not a big deal.

5. Love the weighted core slots: I skipped OOB so haven't encountered it before, but it seems fun. Scenario 2 Warsaw I have 8 slots to fill. A one core slot AT unit looks rather attractive, just to bolster my numbers (core size is small and roving AI tanks can make a mess of unprotected artillery). Even wondering about not upgrading that 75mm artillery yet as with a siege, maybe the extra range is less essential.

6. Supply & encirclement: this could be a big one, I am not sure. The moving "front line" marker from OOB looked very fun. It is early days yet for me, but so far single encircled units don't live long enough for the status to be that important (but suppression continuing across turns is a big deal). Could be fun in future if I can pull off bigger encirclements like the Germans did in Russia. Anyway, another very welcome feature (from OOB?) to bring to Panzer Corps.

7. Any views on overstrength? I did not quite get what was happening in terms of core slots. I picked the negative general trait prohibiting overstrength as I read some early comments say OS was too costly to bother with but that was probably a mistake as I should learn about the mechanic. In PC1, there was night and day difference between overstrength strategic bombers. How is cost-effectiveness of OS in PzC2? I never used it much in PzC due to the prestige concerns and cap (just artillery, AA and bombers).

8. General traits are fun. I picked the recon one to see objectives - always nice to know what is waiting for you. Also the splitting one, although I haven't split yet. Thought keeping spare 1 slot to split would be a problem, but actually doesn't seem a big deal. Also picked the initiative one - seems minor, but may help with air war, which is often decided early plus +1I for rest of game is nice. Can't recall the fourth. (Got 2 extra by forgoing overstrength). Anyone found any standouts?

9. Interface seems ok. The left screen for deployment/looking at your units seems a little large - I have a wide screen monitor, must be hell without. I am struggling to see the XP of units when at the deployment/upgrade stage - often you want to upgrade the high XP ones. Thought mousing over the stars would tell me but it doesn't. The XP information for recruits and elite recruits is confusing, e.g. numbers in the 100s, when they don't even have stars. I thought it would be 100=1 star, but doesn't seem to be. What is it now? 500 = 1 star? I gather the scale is non-linear now (which makes sense - a problem in the early PG was the player getting too many stars too early, but I did not find that with PzC1, maybe because I played field marshal and was parsimonious with elite replacements.

10. Sounds - as other people have said, not a fan of the sound effects or units. Fire and movement doesn't sound visceral enough. The music sounds a little light in mood. I would prefer something more martial (marching band type - like in the East Front game), sombre or exciting (like Japanese in Pacific General). PzC1 had great music - never tired it after 100s of hours - and sounds effects were fine.

TLDR: Overall, not much to complain about. If you like Panzer Corps, you should like this - it is more of the same, with some fresh aspects. I hope and expect PzC2 to PzC will be like PG2 to PG, rather than than PG3D which was a disaster imo. I hope producing content in the new engine is not too difficult, as one of the best things about Panzer Corps was how much extra stuff came after the base game - especially the Grand Campaign, which is probably the best WW2 gaming experience I have had. (The PG2 blitzkrieg+ mod comes close, but can't match the sheer volume of content and historical detail of the GC).

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by comradep » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:32 am

4. Infantry seems weaker (always was end war in PC1): it seems to take terrible losses - hard to imagine how I can get experienced infantry. I guess the higher losses are because we have a 15 strength scale, not a 10 strength one. I try to avoid attacking with infantry without artillery plus massed attacks. And even then it takes about 3:1 advantage in infantry units to take city. I guess that's historical but the casualties I experience even with such advantages are high.
Attacking entrenched opponents is more costly now without aid from engineers/suppression-capable units. Entrenchment can no longer be reduced below the base level and maximum entrenchment level is no longer base+5. You always need engineers to attack at an entrenchment level below the base level now. That makes it much harder for regular infantry to remove entrenched defenders by themselves.

Infantry vs. infantry combat was fairly costly in PG and Panzer Corps as well, losing 25%-33% strength with each attack early on.

Rugged defence is no longer in the game, that helps.
In the tutorial, there was 1 strength point of a Sherman tank that I kept attacking with infantry and they could not kill it. That felt off - it's probably a function of the strict hard target/soft target distinction.
There's no longer a guaranteed kill chance of at least 5% like in Panzer Corps. If the difference between attack and defence values is high enough, a target can't be damaged.

As even fully suppressed units only retreat when they take damage, that can make attacking heavy tanks difficult for both sides as you can't force tanks to surrender either if you can't damage them.
9. Interface seems ok. The left screen for deployment/looking at your units seems a little large - I have a wide screen monitor, must be hell without. I am struggling to see the XP of units when at the deployment/upgrade stage - often you want to upgrade the high XP ones. Thought mousing over the stars would tell me but it doesn't. The XP information for recruits and elite recruits is confusing, e.g. numbers in the 100s, when they don't even have stars. I thought it would be 100=1 star, but doesn't seem to be. What is it now? 500 = 1 star? I gather the scale is non-linear now (which makes sense - a problem in the early PG was the player getting too many stars too early, but I did not find that with PzC1, maybe because I played field marshal and was parsimonious with elite replacements.
1000 experience=one star now. I support the suggestion to make experience visible when hovering over the stars.

Experience isn't as important as it was in Panzer Corps, as Overstrength is no longer tied to the number of stars and accuracy bonuses can also be gained through recon units. The only benefit you can't gain through other means is is the enemy penalty to accuracy when it has less experience.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by econ21 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am

comradep wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:32 am
Experience isn't as important as it was in Panzer Corps, as Overstrength is no longer tied to the number of stars and accuracy bonuses can also be gained through recon units. The only benefit you can't gain through other means is is the enemy penalty to accuracy when it has less experience.
Interesting, as were your other points too.

Personally, I quite like it when experience matters and when losses are relatively low - it makes you care more about your veteran units. I think husbanding your core is a key element to Panzer General games. If a green unit is about as good as a veteran, and or a veteran can bounce back to be the same after massive casualties, it encourages a "cannon fodder" mentality where individual units aren't treated as special. I guess leaders offset this, but only partly.

It's interesting to think what the effect in the real world of being a veteran is. On one level, it doesn't seem that important - elite troops like US airborne performed brilliantly without combat experience. I guess good training and good quality recruits can offset lack of experience. But more generally, experienced units like 1 Infantry Division were trusted to get the job done (e.g. at Omaha) over untested formations. There does seem some evidence that too much experience can inhibit combat performance - e.g. the British divisions who were veterans of North Africa seemed to perform less well in Normandy. There was one computer wargame that modelled this non-linear effect of combat experience, but not surprisingly it didn't catch on.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by panzeh » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:00 pm

econ21 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:28 am

7. Any views on overstrength? I did not quite get what was happening in terms of core slots. I picked the negative general trait prohibiting overstrength as I read some early comments say OS was too costly to bother with but that was probably a mistake as I should learn about the mechanic. In PC1, there was night and day difference between overstrength strategic bombers. How is cost-effectiveness of OS in PzC2? I never used it much in PzC due to the prestige concerns and cap (just artillery, AA and bombers).
I think some units benefit a lot from overstrength, particularly engineers(they're probably a bit too good atm, but their core slot cost makes it tough to use them exclusively). You have to consider the fact that there are only so many hexes on the map so having a punchy engineer can get rid of badly placed cities with a garrison.

Also, if you're playing with the crazy combos heroes gives you, overstrength is a no-brainer to maximize them.

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by econ21 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 pm

panzeh wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:00 pm
Also, if you're playing with the crazy combos heroes gives you, overstrength is a no-brainer to maximize them.
OK, you've made me decide to restart! Flashbacks of 15 strength Rudel are coming flooding back....

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by MickMannock » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:46 pm

econ21 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:07 pm
panzeh wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:00 pm
Also, if you're playing with the crazy combos heroes gives you, overstrength is a no-brainer to maximize them.
OK, you've made me decide to restart! Flashbacks of 15 strength Rudel are coming flooding back....
This time around, you can even go for the 20 strength Rudel (with the right hero that is). :)

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Re: What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

Post by boredatwork » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:31 am

At Kursk at the moment and rapidly losing interest in the game.

If you thought PG2 was better than the original you'll find that the change from PzC to PzC2 is fairly similar.

To me the improvements have been more than counterbalanced by the gimmicky nature of the changes.

Visuals - the game looks nicer than it's predecessor but at the same time is much less effective at conveying information. Different aircraft types as others have said look too similar - even though PG2 used a similar view point I recall a Stuka and a Bf109 still being easily distinguishable. It's hard picking out guns in busy terrain. It's difficult to distinguish whether or not a given dual purpose gun is in AT mode or just aiming low at an AA target.

Interface - a big negative - everything for PzC was grouped to a single side meaning you didn't have to hunt for information. I was halfway to kursk before I realized there was a tiny little cloud icon tucked up in the corner letting me know what the weather was.

New Core system - potentially a good addition. Not surprising since I argued for something similar in PzC1 Beta. However I think it is ultimately still let down by the major flaw that most (all?) games that have followed the PG format suffer from: Variable core strength based on success or otherwise in the game which make for snowball balance issues.

Heroes - one of the "features" from PG2 that I'm not a fan to see make a comeback are gimmicky heroes granting magical abilities.

Airplane system - on the fence about this - for an ABSTRACT wargame the notion of planes staying up for long periods was acceptable. Tying planes to specific airbases and limiting their movement to a range from that airbase seemed like a good idea in theory. In practice however having them fly back to the airbase every turn results in alot extra clicking and scrolling to hunt down aircraft every turn and re position them over the front line. Especially given the visual issues with aircraft at the moment it makes using aircraft more of a chore than it needs to be. IMO a hybrid of the two might have been a better option - planes staying up forever within a specified radius of the airfield they're based at.

Why can paratroops drop and move the same turn? Same with seaborne landings.

Combat - feels like it happens too fast - ie units are too fragile. This means gambling is punished far more than rewarded leading to boring set piece play. Recon bonus and AT support I'm on the fence about - Really I would have preferred larger maps with randomized enemy locations to make recon more valuable in it's intended role rather than as a banner. Likewise AT units - on map support - not sure. Maybe representing them and light AA units as attachments (a la People's General) might have been a better approach. It would give more options to customize individual units by assigning and upgrading component parts rather than cluttering up the map with mono purpose support units. Retreat through units - not sure - at the very least reduces the potential abuse of a player forcing loads of AI units to surrender. Entrenchment seems to matter much less.

Having the option to buy Gustav for your core thus requiring scenarios to be balanced around... having Gustav in your core... =\

Supply - to some extent I understand what they were trying to achieve - to tie it to encirclements - but the problem is they lost some of the flavor that supply originally conveyed - trying to get enough strength to Moscow for example when everything was running out of fuel. To a degree the same friction is still in the game but, like PzC before it, tends to be in the form of continually needing to stop for replacements (which replenished fuel anyways) than actually running the fuel counter down to 0.

In fairness I never finished the vanilla campaign in PzC and would have shelved it had the Grand Campaign not come along. But as it is now I'd rather replay that for the 10th(?) time than continue spending time on it's successor.

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