FG2 Invasion The Gap

Fantasy General II - Invasion is the reimagination of the strategy game classic from the 90s!

Armies once again draw battle-lines on the war-torn land of Keldonia, and a new generation of commanders will test their bravery and tactics against each other. Fantasy wargaming is back!
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jaynope
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FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by jaynope » Sat May 23, 2020 12:49 am

Can't get through the damn wall. Was able to upgrade my troll pups to a rock thrower, but it didn't do jack. Literally went thru 42 fucking turns without getting through the wall

WarHomer
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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by WarHomer » Mon May 25, 2020 10:44 am

It´s definitely a challenge on legendary Iron Maiden with the option of comparable armies enabled.

I made a patch of forest with the Trollhero to defend from and try for 3 stagriders to finish of enemy units. Then I just slug it out till I feel confident and strong enough to advance to and through the wall.

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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by OBG_primetide » Tue May 26, 2020 7:57 am

For me the key has always been to break enemy morale so they give up the wall - usually I try to attack on the right, pepper them with Stagrider hit and runs and throwing rocks, then ride in with Falirson and protect him as well as I can and get the enemy running. Once they give up the wall position, they are usually much easier to beat.
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storeylf
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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by storeylf » Tue May 26, 2020 10:14 pm

Just bought the game a few days ago, and only playing on normal difficulty so maybe not a great indicator. I am playing auto scaling on and did go straight for the supply levels on the main hero so was maxed out army size; not sure that makes a difference or not, not overly sure how much the scaling impacts.

Planned on a heavy infantry/werebear berserker focused force (well as heavy as it can be early on without armor/mana). No trolls except the hero you pick up. I did have 3 trackers though by then. Didn't have a problem with the gap, the infantry/heroes and what missiles I had just ground down the enemy on the wall over many turns, cycling troops each turn, eventually they started to morale crumble. The trackers snuck over the wall by the edges and largely raided all but a couple of settlements, so when I finally broke through I didn't have far to go for the win. Still a fair few turns left on the timer. I think I lost 1 unit getting over the wall. Looked fairly clear to me this is a very patience focused scenario - designed to kill the impatient big time. I may have been 'lucky' in having the 3 trackers, not exactly what I was planning but lack of resources was getting to me, and went for extra trackers - they have been invaluable on all missions so far. Indeed just lost 1 on Krell's tower map annoyingly - killed by stupidly persistent bats I couldn't outrun whilst his werebear companions looked on and scratched their head :) his loss will be felt.

I was expecting worse given some of the complaints about that Gap map I'd read before buying the game. I imagine it is more difficult on higher levels, but then everything probably is. I think that was the first time I used the troll heroes forest spell, and nobbled me as much as the enemy - hadn't realised how big the 'patch' would be.

My only complaint so far is lack of flexibility in unit choices early on - I'm not big on a system where you have limited options for quite a while to build the sort of force you'd like, and then at a certain point you start finding a good chunk and upgrade a number of units (at least with armor so far). I'd prefer some more choice early on even if it means less income mid game to balance it at that point, so that at least I can have more interesting replay options at the start - at the moment I'm not sure I'd want to grind through the first set of missions again. IMO most of the replay options in these games comes from very different army combo's (even if you know it is probably not good), and the current resource system sort of gets in the way of that for too long.


I was kicking myself on Krell's tower when the tracker was about to die, I've a pile of unused heal potions etc and I could have allocated one to him a turn before as he was being worn down, it would've arrived in the post before he died and my skirmishers would have come in the nick of time to save him. Instead he died filling in his +Exp diary, last entry being about the dangers of bats!

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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by OBG_primetide » Wed May 27, 2020 10:24 am

Well on normal the amount of enemies at the wall make a difference - if the gaps between them are too big, you can simply run past them. On higher up levels they fill out the whole wall and your trackers would not be able to slip through.
I hear what you say about unit choices, but our reasoning was a) you should "feel" the highlands being "resource poorer" and try to make do with what you have before getting to the "richer" areas and opening up many more choices. It helps spotlight certain unit tactics (like trackers) where otherwise people would just buy into all kinds of mixed armies. But on replay you are right, that would be more attractive.
Onslaught should hit that spot for you then - varied set-ups, highly replayable maps and many different choices.
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storeylf
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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by storeylf » Wed May 27, 2020 2:00 pm

My trackers didn't slip through gaps between units, they slipped around. That wall was absolutely heaving with enemies, which i assume was down to the scaling and me being down the leader branch that maxed out my supplies (army size). I can't remember the map details now, but I always deploy my trackers to the edges, and in this case I remember sneaking over the same 'mountains' that guide the rest of your army into the 'kill zone'. can't remember how far the mountains extended now across the other side of the wall. But the only thing I think could have scuppered that was fliers on the mountains. Indeed it did take me a little longer on my right as there was a harpy off to the edge, which caused me to detour a bit.

That's why I like the trackers, the ability to sneak along mountains and see everything. At least until the bats/crows whatever get you :)


There is a part of me that wants to try again on a higher difficulty, but I doubt I will - due to the issue with early upgrades in particular largely making the early game to samey and grindy; I expect this will be a play once and never again type of thing. That also puts me off onslaught, I know it is meant to be different but I'm not sure whether to risk it or not yet.

There may be some differences between the male and female starter units, but they 'feel' too similar. It does't help when you are not sure what the resource income is going to be without a lot of online research either - it gets boring running around with 4-6 younglings etc waiting for some metal/magic to upgrade to what you'd like, because the other options you do have take you where you don't want to be. I wanted a few heavy axe men, but I couldn't even get the tier 2 guy for 1 metal for ages, but if I use my semi decent weapon resources I'm down branches I have no desire to be down and can't get back without wasting stuff by sacking the troops (exp loss, resource loss etc).

I understand where you are coming from, but maybe some beginning position where you are assumed to have built up a store of resources over years of raiding that you can spend how you want, maybe balanced by less resource income over the first part of the game? Even 3 metal and 3 magic could allow for a few mid tier or one high tier unit early on, and allow for more early variety. Another option may be that after finishing the game once you can start with some resources to play with in subsequent games. The other obvious method is to avoid only 2 starter units, e.g break out the cav or ranged units etc. I've read why you did what you did, and don't have an issue per se with the current tree's except in so far as the knock on effect is less early game variety/replayability.

That is the risk I suppose of a narrative, playing the same narrative time and again limits replayability.

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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by Arent » Sun May 31, 2020 6:11 am

storeylf wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 2:00 pm
My trackers didn't slip through gaps between units, they slipped around. That wall was absolutely heaving with enemies, which i assume was down to the scaling and me being down the leader branch that maxed out my supplies (army size). I can't remember the map details now, but I always deploy my trackers to the edges, and in this case I remember sneaking over the same 'mountains' that guide the rest of your army into the 'kill zone'. can't remember how far the mountains extended now across the other side of the wall. But the only thing I think could have scuppered that was fliers on the mountains. Indeed it did take me a little longer on my right as there was a harpy off to the edge, which caused me to detour a bit.

That's why I like the trackers, the ability to sneak along mountains and see everything. At least until the bats/crows whatever get you :)


There is a part of me that wants to try again on a higher difficulty, but I doubt I will - due to the issue with early upgrades in particular largely making the early game to samey and grindy; I expect this will be a play once and never again type of thing. That also puts me off onslaught, I know it is meant to be different but I'm not sure whether to risk it or not yet.

There may be some differences between the male and female starter units, but they 'feel' too similar. It does't help when you are not sure what the resource income is going to be without a lot of online research either - it gets boring running around with 4-6 younglings etc waiting for some metal/magic to upgrade to what you'd like, because the other options you do have take you where you don't want to be. I wanted a few heavy axe men, but I couldn't even get the tier 2 guy for 1 metal for ages, but if I use my semi decent weapon resources I'm down branches I have no desire to be down and can't get back without wasting stuff by sacking the troops (exp loss, resource loss etc).

I understand where you are coming from, but maybe some beginning position where you are assumed to have built up a store of resources over years of raiding that you can spend how you want, maybe balanced by less resource income over the first part of the game? Even 3 metal and 3 magic could allow for a few mid tier or one high tier unit early on, and allow for more early variety. Another option may be that after finishing the game once you can start with some resources to play with in subsequent games. The other obvious method is to avoid only 2 starter units, e.g break out the cav or ranged units etc. I've read why you did what you did, and don't have an issue per se with the current tree's except in so far as the knock on effect is less early game variety/replayability.

That is the risk I suppose of a narrative, playing the same narrative time and again limits replayability.
I already suggested a female sorceress upgrade line for more flavor difference between male and female units.

You could also 'hide' some of the magical/high end units, so that you need to fulfill quests or make choices to get them.

And of course having gold to upgrade your entire army - buy additional supplies, gain the ability to build advanced units, buy information before starting a scenario - could add lots of flavor as well.

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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by storeylf » Sun May 31, 2020 11:21 am

Further thoughts from my games over the last days. I should emphasise that despite the complaint here I am enjoying the game for the most part.

There is a single oddity in the unit upgrades that feels bit of a design flaw, especially for new players. I think my initial problem was that I unknowingly made a start of game choice that bumped into that. Actually out side of that one issue I don't think there is an issue when I actually look closer at what happened.

You are shown the units paths you can take, which (including the base type) all have 3+ tiers. You are not really given too much hint on resource flow to come though. It turns out that I planned as the core of my army what may have been the worst option for the early game - axemen. They are very uniquely in need of armor resource for tier 2. Even ignoring the point that I just wanted axemen, it also looks like they will not compete for weapons whilst you upgrade other stuff. That looks like a good early choice then.

Every other path (male or female) can get to the tier 2 unit without armor or magic. You may struggle to find enough weapons early on to upgrade everything and have to make choices about who to upgrade first etc (which is a good design). Axemen, however, you will not see chances to upgrade to for quite a long time unless you are very lucky. Given there is no obvious reason to think that 1 unit type is somehow seen as being more potent and rarer I feel that is a bad design choice, and due to lack of knowledge as a new player almost ruined the game for me. Ironically given that armor is the 'defensive' upgrade and weapons the 'offensive' upgrade I cannot see why axemen are armor. They have less armor and morale than Maidens (the female equivalent) and more choppy power so surely they should be weapons and maidens need armor?

Actually I'd suggest that axemen need weapons and maidens the same. I can't think why you'd arbitrarily make a single tier 2 unit extremely hard to get early on compared to all the others. I think this is the main flaw here, there is 1 tier 2 unit in need of a resource you won't see for a quite a long time, and no clear reason for that, and even less in game hints about that problem.

Because you don't find the armor in the first 6-9? games (can't remember now) you have a choice - hang on to younglings waiting for the armor you are sure must start turning up, or rethink and upgrade to the other stuff instead but that then feels you are being forced in to a specific play style and not allowed the choice you first thought you had. Of course I had no idea how the army size would increase over the game on this first playthrough, so was loathe to upgrade to other units in case that made it hard to then slot in axemen. Eventually I had to start upgrading other units. I was maybe lucky in that I had gone down the extra supply general upgrades, so I had 6 extra slots which later on I was able to fill with heavy infantry.

Of course having gone through the gap and Machnar by the time I get to the sodden lands armor is almost not a problem anymore. Within the short space of 3 or 4 maps I've gone from a long phase of no armor to having no obvious need of more, even with a lot of armor heavy units.

The first male and female starter units are a bit samey, but that is too some extent due to them being early game units, and in the early game the differences are not that important so you don't really notice so much. It would be nicer if they felt different at the start of course, but that is not the main issue.

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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by Arent » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:37 am

It would be no problem at all to make the female starter unit a skirmisher. Then you could either recruit younglings to have a basic fighting unit or maidens to have a basic scout unit that could even take a little care of air units (very important!).

From there on, you could upgrade the males to axemen, berserkers or slingers. And the females to sorceresses, skirmish cavalry or spearwomen.

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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by OBG_primetide » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:53 am

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. We are continuously looking at improving the game experience, so this is very welcome!
Regarding Onslaught: That is exactly what you may be looking for - a very different set-up of units and factions and heroes mixed with more choices about which resource you want to go for. Highly replayable due to procedural maps and branching story paths. I would suggest you give it a try, sound like it could be a good fit.
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Re: FG2 Invasion The Gap

Post by VirgilInTheSKY » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:25 am

storeylf wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:21 am
Further thoughts from my games over the last days. I should emphasise that despite the complaint here I am enjoying the game for the most part.

There is a single oddity in the unit upgrades that feels bit of a design flaw, especially for new players. I think my initial problem was that I unknowingly made a start of game choice that bumped into that. Actually out side of that one issue I don't think there is an issue when I actually look closer at what happened.

You are shown the units paths you can take, which (including the base type) all have 3+ tiers. You are not really given too much hint on resource flow to come though. It turns out that I planned as the core of my army what may have been the worst option for the early game - axemen. They are very uniquely in need of armor resource for tier 2. Even ignoring the point that I just wanted axemen, it also looks like they will not compete for weapons whilst you upgrade other stuff. That looks like a good early choice then.

Every other path (male or female) can get to the tier 2 unit without armor or magic. You may struggle to find enough weapons early on to upgrade everything and have to make choices about who to upgrade first etc (which is a good design). Axemen, however, you will not see chances to upgrade to for quite a long time unless you are very lucky. Given there is no obvious reason to think that 1 unit type is somehow seen as being more potent and rarer I feel that is a bad design choice, and due to lack of knowledge as a new player almost ruined the game for me. Ironically given that armor is the 'defensive' upgrade and weapons the 'offensive' upgrade I cannot see why axemen are armor. They have less armor and morale than Maidens (the female equivalent) and more choppy power so surely they should be weapons and maidens need armor?

Actually I'd suggest that axemen need weapons and maidens the same. I can't think why you'd arbitrarily make a single tier 2 unit extremely hard to get early on compared to all the others. I think this is the main flaw here, there is 1 tier 2 unit in need of a resource you won't see for a quite a long time, and no clear reason for that, and even less in game hints about that problem.

Because you don't find the armor in the first 6-9? games (can't remember now) you have a choice - hang on to younglings waiting for the armor you are sure must start turning up, or rethink and upgrade to the other stuff instead but that then feels you are being forced in to a specific play style and not allowed the choice you first thought you had. Of course I had no idea how the army size would increase over the game on this first playthrough, so was loathe to upgrade to other units in case that made it hard to then slot in axemen. Eventually I had to start upgrading other units. I was maybe lucky in that I had gone down the extra supply general upgrades, so I had 6 extra slots which later on I was able to fill with heavy infantry.

Of course having gone through the gap and Machnar by the time I get to the sodden lands armor is almost not a problem anymore. Within the short space of 3 or 4 maps I've gone from a long phase of no armor to having no obvious need of more, even with a lot of armor heavy units.

The first male and female starter units are a bit samey, but that is too some extent due to them being early game units, and in the early game the differences are not that important so you don't really notice so much. It would be nicer if they felt different at the start of course, but that is not the main issue.
Actually you can get your first armour (and thus first Axemen) in Under Attack!, the 4th mission where you have to defend your village. The right burial mount gives a fixed 1 Armour should you choose to push through the door. I usually get a total of 5 or 6 Armour before Clanmeet, your last mission in the Highland, which should be enough to, sometimes, getting a tier 4 Armoured Trolls, or a Thane and some armoured units.

I guess Axemen needs armour because they have a shield while Maidens not? btw, Trackers actually have the same armour (both 3) as Axemen, so I agree on your point that their armour is somehow low, compared to the resources they used. :)

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