Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

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Patrick Ward
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:58 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
To PoorOldSpike:

Offbeat question for you since I see you list Plymouth as your location. I've been storming through a series of fantasy novels where the main characters are primarily set in the west end of Cornwall. The author uses all real place names and descriptions and the like, including beer. I've learned a lot about Cornwall through fiction! :lol:

So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?

Now I just need to find out where the best pretzels can be found (Germany?) and I'll be all set for Axis Operations...
Doom Bar is one of the most popular in the UK. I've a couple of boxes in the cupboard though I think draught is better than bottled. Yes its a good pint. Is it the best? Who can say. Every few years I find my new favourite drink.

P
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Horseman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:04 pm

Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:58 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
To PoorOldSpike:

Offbeat question for you since I see you list Plymouth as your location. I've been storming through a series of fantasy novels where the main characters are primarily set in the west end of Cornwall. The author uses all real place names and descriptions and the like, including beer. I've learned a lot about Cornwall through fiction! :lol:

So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?

Now I just need to find out where the best pretzels can be found (Germany?) and I'll be all set for Axis Operations...
Doom Bar is one of the most popular in the UK. I've a couple of boxes in the cupboard though I think draught is better than bottled. Yes its a good pint. Is it the best? Who can say. Every few years I find my new favourite drink.

P
Draught is often nicer than bottled (or cans). I wonder if that's mainly a psychological thing

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by adiekmann » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:47 pm

Horseman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:40 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
To PoorOldSpike:

Offbeat question for you since I see you list Plymouth as your location. I've been storming through a series of fantasy novels where the main characters are primarily set in the west end of Cornwall. The author uses all real place names and descriptions and the like, including beer. I've learned a lot about Cornwall through fiction! :lol:

So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?

Now I just need to find out where the best pretzels can be found (Germany?) and I'll be all set for Axis Operations...
You know Plymouth is in Devon?
Yes, but right next door. It's a close as anyone I know to ask!

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by adiekmann » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:52 pm

Horseman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:04 pm
Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:58 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
To PoorOldSpike:

Offbeat question for you since I see you list Plymouth as your location. I've been storming through a series of fantasy novels where the main characters are primarily set in the west end of Cornwall. The author uses all real place names and descriptions and the like, including beer. I've learned a lot about Cornwall through fiction! :lol:

So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?

Now I just need to find out where the best pretzels can be found (Germany?) and I'll be all set for Axis Operations...
Doom Bar is one of the most popular in the UK. I've a couple of boxes in the cupboard though I think draught is better than bottled. Yes its a good pint. Is it the best? Who can say. Every few years I find my new favourite drink.

P
Draught is often nicer than bottled (or cans). I wonder if that's mainly a psychological thing
Is there any beer/ale/stout that is better canned or bottled than from a tap?

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:40 am

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
To PoorOldSpike....So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?
Wish I could help you mate but sorry, I'm one of them weirdos who don't drink..:)
Tried a few sips of all kinds of booze and wine in my early teens but it tasted like cat pee so I've never touched it since.
A few naughty ladies have tried to get me drunk at office parties and I've gone along with it to be a good sport, and as it took effect I noticed the earth's axis had developed a pronounced tilt and I couldn't walk straight.
Also my consciousness seemed to have shrunk to within the confines of my skull and no longer extended into the far reaches of the universe, and I was walking round with a sweaty red face and stupid grin, so I was glad to get my brain back next day when I'd sobered up..:)

PS- speaking of booze, this air-delivered shipment in Alaska no doubt put a smile on a few faces-
Image
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... ic&t=16352
Tanks were invented to make war more fun

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by adiekmann » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:18 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:40 am
adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
To PoorOldSpike....So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?
Wish I could help you mate but sorry, I'm one of them weirdos who don't drink..:)

Thanks, but no shame. I've got nothing against those who don't drink, smoke pot, choose not to have children, and the rest. One should not judge another for those choices, either way, so long as it's not abused.

Tried a few sips of all kinds of booze and wine in my early teens but it tasted like cat pee so I've never touched it since.
A few naughty ladies have tried to get me drunk at office parties and I've gone along with it to be a good sport

...they didn't...you know...take advantage of you in your inebriated state, did they??! :lol: If so, my apologies...don't mean to make light of your victimization.

, and as it took effect I noticed the earth's axis had developed a pronounced tilt and I couldn't walk straight.

...well, it actually is tilted 23.5 degrees

Also my consciousness seemed to have shrunk to within the confines of my skull and no longer extended into the far reaches of the universe, and I was walking round with a sweaty red face and stupid grin,

No doubt because you'd just been victimized by Naughty Ladies...

so I was glad to get my brain back next day when I'd sobered up..:)

It's amazing how a strong first hangover can temper the will to get rip-roaring drunk ("pissed" I believe is the British slang for it?) again.

PS- speaking of booze, this air-delivered shipment in Alaska no doubt put a smile on a few faces-

True - if they were desperate - because Schlitz was shitty beer even by American standards, and unless you're doing a micro brew, most of the big name American beers are crap. :oops: Look at how the Germans almost revolted like it was 1848 all over again during the 2006 World Cup because Budweiser was an official sponsor and their piss beer had to be served all over.

Image
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... ic&t=16352
Anyway, I hope you didn't mind my tongue-in-cheek humor but I couldn't resist! You described it so colorfully in the first place. :D

So, I take it that Cornwall is a nice place and popular with tourists from other parts of Britain? (I've never been anywhere in the UK other than changing planes at Heathrow, but that doesn't count.)

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:52 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:52 pm
Horseman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:04 pm
Patrick Ward wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:58 pm


Doom Bar is one of the most popular in the UK. I've a couple of boxes in the cupboard though I think draught is better than bottled. Yes its a good pint. Is it the best? Who can say. Every few years I find my new favourite drink.

P
Draught is often nicer than bottled (or cans). I wonder if that's mainly a psychological thing
Is there any beer/ale/stout that is better canned or bottled than from a tap?
Oh God yes.

Almost everything available in Flanders, for starters. Get yourself onto the Sint-Sixtus Abbey website and book yourself a collection of 48 Westvleteren 12's. Best beer you will ever taste, I promise you.......and then stop at a Colruyt cash & carry to stock up on all the other good stuff that's commercially available.

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:27 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:18 pm
So, I take it that Cornwall is a nice place and popular with tourists from other parts of Britain? (I've never been anywhere in the UK other than changing planes at Heathrow, but that doesn't count.)

Cornwall is a strange pagan place, there are wicker men everywhere and tourists are lucky to get out alive.

PS- This Spit used to ferry booze from England to Normandy after D-day, dunno if this booze-armed version is included in PC2..

Image
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:46 pm

British Bren carrier in Belgium 1940 with a booze advert down the road..:)

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http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by adiekmann » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:31 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:27 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:18 pm
So, I take it that Cornwall is a nice place and popular with tourists from other parts of Britain? (I've never been anywhere in the UK other than changing planes at Heathrow, but that doesn't count.)

Cornwall is a strange pagan place, there are wicker men everywhere and tourists are lucky to get out alive.

PS- This Spit used to ferry booze from England to Normandy after D-day, dunno if this booze-armed version is included in PC2..

Image
It could be. It unsuppresses any troops when you fly it over them, like whiskey does to Captain Haddock in the Adventures of Tintin comic books. Or maybe +4 initiative on their next turn. Then again, it probably should give them a -5 defense too... :wink:

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:36 pm

Returning to the AA topic, did I imagine it or did my bomber suffer a 1-point strength loss when attacking a tank? (there were no AA units around).
It'd certainly make sense because some tanks had a turret-roof mounted AA MG.
And do some infantry have AA capability too in PC2?

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:06 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:36 pm
Returning to the AA topic, did I imagine it or did my bomber suffer a 1-point strength loss when attacking a tank? (there were no AA units around).
It'd certainly make sense because some tanks had a turret-roof mounted AA MG.
And do some infantry have AA capability too in PC2?

Image
I don't recall this ever happening to me in PC2.

Some units did have passive air attack in PC1 though, so that might be it.

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by SineMora » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:31 pm

voxr wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:06 pm
I don't recall this ever happening to me in PC2.

Some units did have passive air attack in PC1 though, so that might be it.
Indeed, I thought this was scrapped because players disliked having the tac bombers be shot at by every tank under the sun while attacking. Ships are about the only units that regularly return fire that aren't dedicated AA for me.
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:15 pm

SineMora wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:31 pm
voxr wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:06 pm
I don't recall this ever happening to me in PC2.

Some units did have passive air attack in PC1 though, so that might be it.
Indeed, I thought this was scrapped because players disliked having the tac bombers be shot at by every tank under the sun while attacking. Ships are about the only units that regularly return fire that aren't dedicated AA for me.
It was quite unrealistic I feel; while a lot of units had organic anti-air this was mostly on a divisional level (at least for the Germans, not so sure about the others). The anti-air units represented as individual units in-game are meant to be corps-level attachment.

While one might argue machine guns were plentiful these were mostly ineffective in the absence of dedicated sights and targetting devices.

Also most machine guns back then were not of the heavy (at least .50 cal) and the small time on target and armour on aircraft coupled with high speed of most tactical air made downing one a matter of luck and very unlikely.

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Tassadar » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:18 am

voxr wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:15 pm
SineMora wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:31 pm
voxr wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:06 pm
I don't recall this ever happening to me in PC2.

Some units did have passive air attack in PC1 though, so that might be it.
Indeed, I thought this was scrapped because players disliked having the tac bombers be shot at by every tank under the sun while attacking. Ships are about the only units that regularly return fire that aren't dedicated AA for me.
It was quite unrealistic I feel; while a lot of units had organic anti-air this was mostly on a divisional level (at least for the Germans, not so sure about the others). The anti-air units represented as individual units in-game are meant to be corps-level attachment.

While one might argue machine guns were plentiful these were mostly ineffective in the absence of dedicated sights and targetting devices.

Also most machine guns back then were not of the heavy (at least .50 cal) and the small time on target and armour on aircraft coupled with high speed of most tactical air made downing one a matter of luck and very unlikely.
It often happened when pilots performed machine gun "sweeping" low altitude runs. This was however discouraged or often straight disallowed by high command in various countries, until armoured or specialized machines were built. An example was the war in Poland, where PZL.23 bomber crews were not allowed to attack German land transports with machine gun fire after dropping bombs and when pilots did not obey these orders it usually ended up with extra losses due to ground return fire.

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by KesaAnna » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:11 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:36 pm
Returning to the AA topic, did I imagine it or did my bomber suffer a 1-point strength loss when attacking a tank?
Maybe a recent tweak in a recent patch ? Because the same thing happened to me twice in a random scenario last night , my Italians vs. British. Two different air units took a one point loss while attacking British ground units in two different attacks.

Perhaps the odds of it happening were increased because the Italians aren't using super star equipment to begin with , AND I was playing with Green Army against AI British who obviously were not using Green Army ?

---

I really , really love the AA / Air defense aspect of this game. I'm almost disappointed when my Fighters clear the skies of enemy aircraft , because then my AA guns have nothing to shoot at , and nothing to do. :(

It's hard to talk about AA , though , in coherent , concrete terms , because up to this point I haven't been using / studying the combat log feature , so I have been managing air defense exclusively via vague impressions.

I never use the AA Veteran trait , so AA / Air Defense is exclusively about suppression , so , I suppose , it is even more about the look of things , and feelings in my big toe . :mrgreen:

The AI's number one priority target seems to be artillery . So my AA guns follow around my artillery like Siamese Twins. In my movement phase , barring the occasional exceptional circumstance , I always move my artillery first , then position my AA guns to hopefully cover the artillery , and then move everything else.

I cast covetous eyes on the SturmPanzer and the Wespe , ( but never buy them . :( ) and I always DO buy a half-track towed Nebelwerfer , but , otherwise , despite all the tempting choices in artillery , I only ever buy half - track towed 15 cm , and half - track towed 21 cm guns.

Consequently then , I only buy half - track towed AA guns , and only two models ; The 3.7cm Flak 37 , and the 2cm Flakvierling 38 , because , as I said , their number one job is protecting the artillery , and they only have to keep up with towed artillery.

Sometimes I wind up with two Flakvierlings and one Flak 37 , or , two Flak 37's and one Flakvierling 38.

I have acquired a lot of experience with the 3.7cm Flak 37 because it is very cheap ( one core slot ) AND I LIKE THE LOOK OF IT. :mrgreen:

The Germans themselves seemed to like it ; they later mounted that gun on the Stuka , and mounted it later on the Gepard ( Another unit I would love to buy , but never do. :( )

The Flakvierling 38 with its rapid fire SEEMS to perform better ( ? ) against low - flying ( ? ) tactical bombers and strafing fighters .

But the 3.7cm Flak 37 SEEMS to perform better against high - flying strategic bombers ( ? ) , and performs , err , tolerably well against the low - flying aircraft.

Further up the page someone said the Flakvierling 38 performs well against infantry ? I wouldn't know because I never move my AA guns into the front line on account of some nasty experiences I have had with my good - looking 3.7cm Flak 37's.

The listed stats of the 3.7cm Flak 37 against infantry or tanks look pretty darn good , and as I pointed out , they later mounted that gun on the Stuka to turn it into a wicked tank killer , but , in my experience , the 3.7cm Flak 37 performs really badly against infantry and tanks. :cry:

Maybe my technique in using it in the ground role somehow sucks ?

The Italians have an AA gun called the Breda -- something ( ? ) which looks very similar to the 3.7cm Flak 37 and SEEMS to perform very similar to the Flak 37.

As impressive as the German 88 is , I can buy three Flak 37 's / Flakvierling 38 's for the price of one 88 , and if I want AT , I always wind up buying SPAT anyway. So I never buy the 88.

Speaking of the 88 though , the Italians have an AA gun --- I forget what it is called :oops: --- very similar to the German 88. Like the German 88 , it is hell on aircraft , and a darned decent AT gun too. Indeed , if we ever get an Italian campaign , I would forgo the the early war towed Italian AT gun , and buy the Italian 88 - clone instead and use it for both AA and AT in the particular case of the Italians.

( In the particular case of the Italians , because their tanks suck so bad , their infantry essentially ARE their front line , at least early war , so I find towed AT to be a lot more handy in their case than in the German case. )

Now , finally , as to my Air Defense strategy ;
Hopefully my Flak 37 / Flakvierling 38 trio mitigates substantially the damage to my artillery from the enemy air , and it indeed SEEMS to do so.

Secondly it softens up the enemy aircraft sufficiently for my Fighters to knock them out of the sky with minimal fighter losses . ( I concentrate on destroying enemy fighters first , then tactical bombers second , then strategic bombers third , in that order. ) And that likewise SEEMS to work pretty well.

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:55 am

KesaAnna wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:11 am
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:36 pm
Returning to the AA topic, did I imagine it or did my bomber suffer a 1-point strength loss when attacking a tank?
Maybe a recent tweak in a recent patch ? Because the same thing happened to me twice in a random scenario last night , my Italians vs. British. Two different air units took a one point loss while attacking British ground units in two different attacks.

Perhaps the odds of it happening were increased because the Italians aren't using super star equipment to begin with , AND I was playing with Green Army against AI British who obviously were not using Green Army ?

---

I really , really love the AA / Air defense aspect of this game. I'm almost disappointed when my Fighters clear the skies of enemy aircraft , because then my AA guns have nothing to shoot at , and nothing to do. :(

It's hard to talk about AA , though , in coherent , concrete terms , because up to this point I haven't been using / studying the combat log feature , so I have been managing air defense exclusively via vague impressions.

I never use the AA Veteran trait , so AA / Air Defense is exclusively about suppression , so , I suppose , it is even more about the look of things , and feelings in my big toe . :mrgreen:

The AI's number one priority target seems to be artillery . So my AA guns follow around my artillery like Siamese Twins. In my movement phase , barring the occasional exceptional circumstance , I always move my artillery first , then position my AA guns to hopefully cover the artillery , and then move everything else.

I cast covetous eyes on the SturmPanzer and the Wespe , ( but never buy them . :( ) and I always DO buy a half-track towed Nebelwerfer , but , otherwise , despite all the tempting choices in artillery , I only ever buy half - track towed 15 cm , and half - track towed 21 cm guns.

Consequently then , I only buy half - track towed AA guns , and only two models ; The 3.7cm Flak 37 , and the 2cm Flakvierling 38 , because , as I said , their number one job is protecting the artillery , and they only have to keep up with towed artillery.

Sometimes I wind up with two Flakvierlings and one Flak 37 , or , two Flak 37's and one Flakvierling 38.

I have acquired a lot of experience with the 3.7cm Flak 37 because it is very cheap ( one core slot ) AND I LIKE THE LOOK OF IT. :mrgreen:

The Germans themselves seemed to like it ; they later mounted that gun on the Stuka , and mounted it later on the Gepard ( Another unit I would love to buy , but never do. :( )

The Flakvierling 38 with its rapid fire SEEMS to perform better ( ? ) against low - flying ( ? ) tactical bombers and strafing fighters .

But the 3.7cm Flak 37 SEEMS to perform better against high - flying strategic bombers ( ? ) , and performs , err , tolerably well against the low - flying aircraft.

Further up the page someone said the Flakvierling 38 performs well against infantry ? I wouldn't know because I never move my AA guns into the front line on account of some nasty experiences I have had with my good - looking 3.7cm Flak 37's.

The listed stats of the 3.7cm Flak 37 against infantry or tanks look pretty darn good , and as I pointed out , they later mounted that gun on the Stuka to turn it into a wicked tank killer , but , in my experience , the 3.7cm Flak 37 performs really badly against infantry and tanks. :cry:

Maybe my technique in using it in the ground role somehow sucks ?

The Italians have an AA gun called the Breda -- something ( ? ) which looks very similar to the 3.7cm Flak 37 and SEEMS to perform very similar to the Flak 37.

As impressive as the German 88 is , I can buy three Flak 37 's / Flakvierling 38 's for the price of one 88 , and if I want AT , I always wind up buying SPAT anyway. So I never buy the 88.

Speaking of the 88 though , the Italians have an AA gun --- I forget what it is called :oops: --- very similar to the German 88. Like the German 88 , it is hell on aircraft , and a darned decent AT gun too. Indeed , if we ever get an Italian campaign , I would forgo the the early war towed Italian AT gun , and buy the Italian 88 - clone instead and use it for both AA and AT in the particular case of the Italians.

( In the particular case of the Italians , because their tanks suck so bad , their infantry essentially ARE their front line , at least early war , so I find towed AT to be a lot more handy in their case than in the German case. )

Now , finally , as to my Air Defense strategy ;
Hopefully my Flak 37 / Flakvierling 38 trio mitigates substantially the damage to my artillery from the enemy air , and it indeed SEEMS to do so.

Secondly it softens up the enemy aircraft sufficiently for my Fighters to knock them out of the sky with minimal fighter losses . ( I concentrate on destroying enemy fighters first , then tactical bombers second , then strategic bombers third , in that order. ) And that likewise SEEMS to work pretty well.
To be honest I've never given the 3.7 a fair shake. The lure of using the iconic 88 was too much, and it reflects reality in that it was far superior to any dedicated AT the Germans had until late war. The SPAT's before the Stug IIIF aren't reliable enough so I much prefer using the 88 in the AT role.

The 88 also has 3 range so you can somewhat mitigate traffic control problems caused from having too many support units.

I also never have problems finding slots for them and I field minimum 2 at all times starting from France.

Paying attention to unit traits is important. The Flakvierling does so well because of 2x Rapid Fire and Low Altitude Attack which gives access to close defence of tactical bombers. The 3.7 (and 88) does not have these traits so they only fire 10 shots against ground defence of aircraft.

The Italian 'equivalent' is the Canone da 90 which was a completely separate design (and not a variant) of the 88. It was very effective in North Africa but not so much in the hilly terrain of Italy.

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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:07 pm

voxr wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:55 am

To be honest I've never given the 3.7 a fair shake. The lure of using the iconic 88 was too much, and it reflects reality in that it was far superior to any dedicated AT the Germans had until late war. The SPAT's before the Stug IIIF aren't reliable enough so I much prefer using the 88 in the AT role.

The 88 also has 3 range so you can somewhat mitigate traffic control problems caused from having too many support units.

I also never have problems finding slots for them and I field minimum 2 at all times starting from France.

Paying attention to unit traits is important. The Flakvierling does so well because of 2x Rapid Fire and Low Altitude Attack which gives access to close defence of tactical bombers. The 3.7 (and 88) does not have these traits so they only fire 10 shots against ground defence of aircraft.

The Italian 'equivalent' is the Canone da 90 which was a completely separate design (and not a variant) of the 88. It was very effective in North Africa but not so much in the hilly terrain of Italy.
I'm struggling to see a window of usage for the mighty "88" in my campaign corps' at the moment when I can have 3 x horse-drawn Flakvierling for 3 slots. Also, "88" in AT mode means it's not on FlaK duty and is very exposed to damage from cavalry and soft recon units. A possible disclaimer is that, with "Industry Connections", I had access to fearsome prototype panzerjaegers at an early stage so didn't need 88s for their AT power although those prototypes never made it to production.

Maybe the North African / Italy scenario design and enemy mix allow it to shine (and I 'm yet to play through them in fairness), but on the eastern front I need some convincing of its cost/benefit.

voxr
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:36 pm

Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:52 am

BaronVonWalrus wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:07 pm
voxr wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:55 am

To be honest I've never given the 3.7 a fair shake. The lure of using the iconic 88 was too much, and it reflects reality in that it was far superior to any dedicated AT the Germans had until late war. The SPAT's before the Stug IIIF aren't reliable enough so I much prefer using the 88 in the AT role.

The 88 also has 3 range so you can somewhat mitigate traffic control problems caused from having too many support units.

I also never have problems finding slots for them and I field minimum 2 at all times starting from France.

Paying attention to unit traits is important. The Flakvierling does so well because of 2x Rapid Fire and Low Altitude Attack which gives access to close defence of tactical bombers. The 3.7 (and 88) does not have these traits so they only fire 10 shots against ground defence of aircraft.

The Italian 'equivalent' is the Canone da 90 which was a completely separate design (and not a variant) of the 88. It was very effective in North Africa but not so much in the hilly terrain of Italy.
I'm struggling to see a window of usage for the mighty "88" in my campaign corps' at the moment when I can have 3 x horse-drawn Flakvierling for 3 slots. Also, "88" in AT mode means it's not on FlaK duty and is very exposed to damage from cavalry and soft recon units. A possible disclaimer is that, with "Industry Connections", I had access to fearsome prototype panzerjaegers at an early stage so didn't need 88s for their AT power although those prototypes never made it to production.

Maybe the North African / Italy scenario design and enemy mix allow it to shine (and I 'm yet to play through them in fairness), but on the eastern front I need some convincing of its cost/benefit.
For myself the priority for 88's is always AT duty. Strategic bombers are more of a nuisance than danger and the Flakvierlings can take care of tactical air/strafing fighters by themselves without assistance. With proper vision control and the Storch it's not that difficult to switch between AT & AA as needed.

I haven't played with Industry Connections myself but the the 37 Pak is quite rubbish, and the 50 only costs a slot less. I'm quite willing to pay a slot for the 88 that offers far better AT performance and can also double as AA when needed.

With all that being said I don't think you can view all this in isolation. I know this thread is about individual units but every player's experiences differ because of different traits and core composition. This is part of what makes the game so engaging.

Personally I never want for slots to organise battlegroups that are capable of meeting their objectives (within limits, of course). I run one 2 cm Flak (Retrograde, so no Flakvierling until 1941) and two 88's in 1940, and start including at least 2 of each 1941 on. However, I am also quite light on air & infantry, have Panzer General, and prefer the leFH over the sFH so my artillery contingent isn't as expensive.

For my second campaign I have a simple Excel spreadsheet that I use to track and help plan my 3 Slow Modernisation upgrades per scenario. I'm currently only at Typhoon but if you're interested I could share it.

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