(Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:00 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:40 pm
Naphtha bombs are also excellent vs elephants
Thanks! Will try that too. :)
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Horse versus horse was tricky. On the third attempt with my Turkish against AI Emperor Khazar (two first decisively lost) on three different maps, I finally managed to win. The key, I believe, was an advantageous map, managing to return light mounted archers to base, and also me trying out using foot archers (both light and massed) stationed defensively in BUAs and in woods. But as I mentioned in another thread, it's very difficult to be 25% down in force points when horse vs horse army, since the enemy moves so quickly around the battlefield that I cannot muster any long-term local superiority in numbers.
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What are your main advice and take aways on horse versus horse battles?
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by Ludendorf » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:07 pm

Well, you could try to use mass skirmisher fire during open terrain battles to quickly weaken a flank of the enemy lancer line and then smash through with the armoured lancers. Concentration of force can help. Try to use your armoured lancers and skirmishers in concert to break through a critical part of the line and throw the enemy formation into chaos, while your cheaper lancers refuse their flank and just try to keep the pressure off your elites while they do the damage. If you can get the enemy lancers in a long line, then even one unit of lancers getting free around the back can open up their entire line and smash it open like an eggshell. You can get some amazing chain routs going against a long line of engaged enemy cavalry.

Having some medium foot in reserve can also help if part of your own line suddenly gives way. Which it frequently does; there's usually at least one unlucky lancer unit that fragments immediately upon impact, and it needn't be one of your less reliable units. Amongst that many dice rolls, some of them are bound to be bombs.

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by vakarr » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:55 am

Cavalry are vulnerable to shooting, so it might be possible to tempt the enemy cavalry into a killing zone, then shoot them up with much cheaper troops. Did that recently in a game where my best cavalry was average protected cavalry, and his best cavalry was superior armoured cavalry - moved my light horse around the flank, where I got a local superiority, shot up the heavy cavalry, then shot them up some more with the aid of foot bows - was surprised to see how easy it was against superior heavy cavalry. By the time I charged them with my rubbish cavalry, the enemy cavalry were all fragmented or disrupted. Never played on emperor level, though. Maybe the AI doesn't wait until you move up within 5 squares before it reacts at that level. (video available of this soon)

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:18 am

vakarr wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:55 am
Cavalry are vulnerable to shooting, so it might be possible to tempt the enemy cavalry into a killing zone, then shoot them up with much cheaper troops. Did that recently in a game where my best cavalry was average protected cavalry, and his best cavalry was superior armoured cavalry - moved my light horse around the flank, where I got a local superiority, shot up the heavy cavalry, then shot them up some more with the aid of foot bows - was surprised to see how easy it was against superior heavy cavalry. By the time I charged them with my rubbish cavalry, the enemy cavalry were all fragmented or disrupted. Never played on emperor level, though. Maybe the AI doesn't wait until you move up within 5 squares before it reacts at that level. (video available of this soon)
Have read somewhere that AI behaviour doesn't differ between difficulty levels. And some gamey AI behaviour I wouldn't want to know, but then it's hard to resist exploiting them... :)
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am

I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by Swuul » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am

kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?
I don't claim to be an expert with elephants, but I like to deploy one when I have the chance. However, before doing that, there are always things that I need to first consider:
1) Does your opponent have lots of shooters, or access to lots of javelins? Javelins are scary for elephants, while other missiles don't seem to be that scary, the if the volume of shrapnel in the air is great, eventually they will cause the phants morale break.
1a) Even if hostiles have lots of javelins and archers/slingers, do you have stuff in your army who can shield your phants from the volleys?

2) Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry. But if opponent is using lots of cheap infantry, look up so that your phants don't get lured away -> it may feel great that your phant just broke a 15 point horde infantry in impact, but the phants then keep on chasing the horde, there goes your expensive phant chasing nobodies, and you can start banging your head against the table. And if they didn't break that horde on impact, you can be guaranteed their friends will then flank change your phants next round... Ie use phants vs cavalry armies and expensive infantry armies, but it might be time for some more thinking if you are going to be faced by armies with lots of cheap infantry.

3) Phants don't like bad terrain, at all. If there is even a small risk of the phants getting stuck on some bad terrain, I prefer to leave them home.



During actual combat, I like to place a general (usually a SC, not the C-in-C) on the phant. Long command range from the elephant is of course one thing, another is that you want the general bonus when you get to melee, and you also want the general bonus when you absolutely desperately need the phant to rally (either from being broken, or up from fragmented/disrupted).

Leave the elephant in the second row. That way you are safe from hostile archers, and you can then charge through the gaps in the front line when time comes. The thing is to not release the phants too early, as they might run off somewhere chasing nobodies, or running into a terrible position after the charge; this is something I always seem to poop up (I keep slapping myself on the fingers if I even think of pressing that Charge button, and then my mind slips for a split second and I lose focus, and I immediatly did it again: CHAAAARGE (snif)). Often the mere existence of the elephant hampers your opponent more than the actual things the phant does, but once the phant is locked in in combat (or is chasing broken rabbits in their rear somewhere), they can carry out their plans easier.

In short, think of the elephant as a glass cannon. It can hit so incredibly hard in impact, but it can also shatter so easily when somebody farts the wrong way.
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:53 pm

Swuul wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am
kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?
I don't claim to be an expert with elephants, but I like to deploy one when I have the chance. However, before doing that, there are always things that I need to first consider:
1) Does your opponent have lots of shooters, or access to lots of javelins? Javelins are scary for elephants, while other missiles don't seem to be that scary, the if the volume of shrapnel in the air is great, eventually they will cause the phants morale break.
1a) Even if hostiles have lots of javelins and archers/slingers, do you have stuff in your army who can shield your phants from the volleys?

2) Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry. But if opponent is using lots of cheap infantry, look up so that your phants don't get lured away -> it may feel great that your phant just broke a 15 point horde infantry in impact, but the phants then keep on chasing the horde, there goes your expensive phant chasing nobodies, and you can start banging your head against the table. And if they didn't break that horde on impact, you can be guaranteed their friends will then flank change your phants next round... Ie use phants vs cavalry armies and expensive infantry armies, but it might be time for some more thinking if you are going to be faced by armies with lots of cheap infantry.

3) Phants don't like bad terrain, at all. If there is even a small risk of the phants getting stuck on some bad terrain, I prefer to leave them home.



During actual combat, I like to place a general (usually a SC, not the C-in-C) on the phant. Long command range from the elephant is of course one thing, another is that you want the general bonus when you get to melee, and you also want the general bonus when you absolutely desperately need the phant to rally (either from being broken, or up from fragmented/disrupted).

Leave the elephant in the second row. That way you are safe from hostile archers, and you can then charge through the gaps in the front line when time comes. The thing is to not release the phants too early, as they might run off somewhere chasing nobodies, or running into a terrible position after the charge; this is something I always seem to poop up (I keep slapping myself on the fingers if I even think of pressing that Charge button, and then my mind slips for a split second and I lose focus, and I immediatly did it again: CHAAAARGE (snif)). Often the mere existence of the elephant hampers your opponent more than the actual things the phant does, but once the phant is locked in in combat (or is chasing broken rabbits in their rear somewhere), they can carry out their plans easier.

In short, think of the elephant as a glass cannon. It can hit so incredibly hard in impact, but it can also shatter so easily when somebody farts the wrong way.
Many thanks for your advice: highly useful! (I too have a CHARGE-happy finger unfortunately...) Also really like the comparison to a glass cannon.
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by vakarr » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:46 am

Note that javelins are no more effective against elephants than other shooting weapons - not how it should be, but I asked about that a while back and was told no, there's no difference between javelins and bows when shooting at elephants - unless you shoot with something like Cretan Archers or Immortals, which are superior, so they shoot better.

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by Karvon » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:17 am

Perhaps so, but javelins, in my experience, seem to have consistently higher casualty rates than the others. Maybe it's just preconception bias though ;)

Actually, doing a search on the topic revealed this...

Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by rbodleyscott » 03 Oct 2017 05:46
Actually, in the game they do about the same damage, unless the target is elephants, in which case javelins do more damage. Javelinmen have shorter range and carry less ammunition so although their individual penetration power would be greater, they won't all shoot each turn.

So it would seem the javelinmen are better after all.

And always move your LF slingers and archers to range 2 or less, when shooting at elephants to maximize your damage.

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by Swuul » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:50 am

vakarr wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:46 am
Note that javelins are no more effective against elephants than other shooting weapons
That is incorrect. Archers and slingers get a -50 (minus 50) POA when shooting vs elephants, javelins get +50 (plus 50) POA when shooting vs elephants. Versus everything else they are equal. That 100 POA difference when shooting vs elephants is huge, and the effect of the difference can easily be seen in-game.
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by Jagger2002 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:00 am

Yes, if your opponents has elephants, save your javelins for the elephants.

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:07 am

Naphtha bombs are also quite effective against elephants, and I assume we will be seeing more of them in High Medieval. Artillery remains most deadly to them though, with 0-4 casualty range for a single round of shooting.
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am

kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: targeting which type of enemy unit?
Swuul wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am
Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry.
So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:31 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am
kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: targeting which type of enemy unit?
Swuul wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am
Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry.
So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?
Not pikes.
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by Swuul » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:36 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:31 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am
kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: targeting which type of enemy unit?
Swuul wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am
Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry.
So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?
Not pikes.
Do not charge pikes with phants if the pikes have 4 ranks of models. If they have 3 or less, then yes, even pikes can be run over. In short, keep the phants initially back when fighting vs pikes, and after the pikes have taken losses (from shooting or from melee), roll in the phant (unless the pikes are of Superior or Elite quality). Notice that it is just fine to *recieve* the charge of the pikes (but if your phant is placed so that they can recieve the charge from pikes, then there is always the risk some evil javelinmen will burst forwards to make your days miserable).

Elephants get +250 on impact, pikes with 4 ranks get +200 if they are charged, so the difference is too small to risk it with the phants (if they lose it and become Disrupted, the phants are dead meat vs pikes in future rounds). If the pikes are charging, or if the pikes have less than 4 ranks, the pikes will get at most +100 POA, and then the POA difference (if you have the general (who provide +50)on the phant) will be 250+50-100= +200 which is the maximum you can get anyway (and you will have a 0% chance of losing the impact round)).
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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by vakarr » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:04 am

That's great, I had hoped that would be the case, it should happen in melee, too. Do light horse javelins also do better against elephants (so that it counter-acts being disordered to a greater or lesser extent)?

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kraff » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:21 am

kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?
Use them only in combined arms approach. Javelinmen and phalanxes are the ultimate anti-elephant units, so screen your elephants from the former and don't charge the latter. Massed archers are also deadly for elephants. Don't underestimate other ranged units, because when they act in concert, they can easily break your gajas.

Charging other elephants solo is extremely risky, and outcome of such a duel is completely unpredictable. Frontally charging solo anything but medium foot or shock cavalry (these are doomed when hit by elephants) can be problematic. Light cavalry or horse archers or non-shock cavalry will avoid contact and you will end up chasing wind with your flanks exposed to infantry attacks and javelin shower, so don't do that. Charging heavy infantry yields different results. Roman legionaries more often than not are very resilient to elephant attacks for some reason, so don't expect they will fall in heaps (like they did according to Polybius). Heavies are best dealt with by proper flanking anyway, so use your elephants to hit them from the flank.

Heavy units with >480 men will eventually win a duel with elephants due to huge difference in numbers, unless you manage to disrupt them. Keep in mind that there are only 20 elephants in a unit. So when you only lose initial 2 you get negative modifier for suffering significant casualties (>5%). And they are down to 18, so from now on losing 1 elephant is -1 modifier to cohesion test.

Now - this is important - routed elephant unit will cause cohesion test in friendly units in range of 2 squares. So if there is a fragmented unit in range - it will most likely break causing additional cohesion tests in friendly units. With a bit of luck this in turn may cause multiple morale drops in enemy units. Cool. Or not cool if those are your elephants that are about to break and you have some disrupted or fragmented units nearby.

Gajas have also ability to disrupt nearby cavalry units, so you can use that to your advantage if you can’t engage such cav unit directly (because, say, your elephants guard your flank at the moment).

Use your elephants in close formation with your other troops, preferably in flanking maneuvers, and attempt to set up conditions for a devastating “chained charge”. Don’t use them against pikes or superior heavy infantry. Use them against enemy cavalry (even superior) and medium foot. At all times screen them from enemy ranged units and guard the flanks of your gajas, because they are extremely vulnerable to morale drops and when routing they can send multiple of your units to the hills as well.

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:50 am

kraff wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:21 am
kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?
Use them only in combined arms approach. Javelinmen and phalanxes are the ultimate anti-elephant units, so screen your elephants from the former and don't charge the latter. Massed archers are also deadly for elephants. Don't underestimate other ranged units, because when they act in concert, they can easily break your gajas.

Charging other elephants solo is extremely risky, and outcome of such a duel is completely unpredictable. Frontally charging solo anything but medium foot or shock cavalry (these are doomed when hit by elephants) can be problematic. Light cavalry or horse archers or non-shock cavalry will avoid contact and you will end up chasing wind with your flanks exposed to infantry attacks and javelin shower, so don't do that. Charging heavy infantry yields different results. Roman legionaries more often than not are very resilient to elephant attacks for some reason, so don't expect they will fall in heaps (like they did according to Polybius). Heavies are best dealt with by proper flanking anyway, so use your elephants to hit them from the flank.

Heavy units with >480 men will eventually win a duel with elephants due to huge difference in numbers, unless you manage to disrupt them. Keep in mind that there are only 20 elephants in a unit. So when you only lose initial 2 you get negative modifier for suffering significant casualties (>5%). And they are down to 18, so from now on losing 1 elephant is -1 modifier to cohesion test.

Now - this is important - routed elephant unit will cause cohesion test in friendly units in range of 2 squares. So if there is a fragmented unit in range - it will most likely break causing additional cohesion tests in friendly units. With a bit of luck this in turn may cause multiple morale drops in enemy units. Cool. Or not cool if those are your elephants that are about to break and you have some disrupted or fragmented units nearby.

Gajas have also ability to disrupt nearby cavalry units, so you can use that to your advantage if you can’t engage such cav unit directly (because, say, your elephants guard your flank at the moment).

Use your elephants in close formation with your other troops, preferably in flanking maneuvers, and attempt to set up conditions for a devastating “chained charge”. Don’t use them against pikes or superior heavy infantry. Use them against enemy cavalry (even superior) and medium foot. At all times screen them from enemy ranged units and guard the flanks of your gajas, because they are extremely vulnerable to morale drops and when routing they can send multiple of your units to the hills as well.
Thanks, kraff! Wish I had followed your advice the other day... ;) But now I have a new shot at it. :)
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

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Re: (Not So) Quick Questions Thread on Tactics

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:51 am

Swuul wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:36 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:31 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am




So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?
Not pikes.
Do not charge pikes with phants if the pikes have 4 ranks of models. If they have 3 or less, then yes, even pikes can be run over. In short, keep the phants initially back when fighting vs pikes, and after the pikes have taken losses (from shooting or from melee), roll in the phant (unless the pikes are of Superior or Elite quality). Notice that it is just fine to *recieve* the charge of the pikes (but if your phant is placed so that they can recieve the charge from pikes, then there is always the risk some evil javelinmen will burst forwards to make your days miserable).

Elephants get +250 on impact, pikes with 4 ranks get +200 if they are charged, so the difference is too small to risk it with the phants (if they lose it and become Disrupted, the phants are dead meat vs pikes in future rounds). If the pikes are charging, or if the pikes have less than 4 ranks, the pikes will get at most +100 POA, and then the POA difference (if you have the general (who provide +50)on the phant) will be 250+50-100= +200 which is the maximum you can get anyway (and you will have a 0% chance of losing the impact round)).
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:50 am
kraff wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:21 am
kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am
I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?
Use them only in combined arms approach. Javelinmen and phalanxes are the ultimate anti-elephant units, so screen your elephants from the former and don't charge the latter. Massed archers are also deadly for elephants. Don't underestimate other ranged units, because when they act in concert, they can easily break your gajas.

Charging other elephants solo is extremely risky, and outcome of such a duel is completely unpredictable. Frontally charging solo anything but medium foot or shock cavalry (these are doomed when hit by elephants) can be problematic. Light cavalry or horse archers or non-shock cavalry will avoid contact and you will end up chasing wind with your flanks exposed to infantry attacks and javelin shower, so don't do that. Charging heavy infantry yields different results. Roman legionaries more often than not are very resilient to elephant attacks for some reason, so don't expect they will fall in heaps (like they did according to Polybius). Heavies are best dealt with by proper flanking anyway, so use your elephants to hit them from the flank.

Heavy units with >480 men will eventually win a duel with elephants due to huge difference in numbers, unless you manage to disrupt them. Keep in mind that there are only 20 elephants in a unit. So when you only lose initial 2 you get negative modifier for suffering significant casualties (>5%). And they are down to 18, so from now on losing 1 elephant is -1 modifier to cohesion test.

Now - this is important - routed elephant unit will cause cohesion test in friendly units in range of 2 squares. So if there is a fragmented unit in range - it will most likely break causing additional cohesion tests in friendly units. With a bit of luck this in turn may cause multiple morale drops in enemy units. Cool. Or not cool if those are your elephants that are about to break and you have some disrupted or fragmented units nearby.

Gajas have also ability to disrupt nearby cavalry units, so you can use that to your advantage if you can’t engage such cav unit directly (because, say, your elephants guard your flank at the moment).

Use your elephants in close formation with your other troops, preferably in flanking maneuvers, and attempt to set up conditions for a devastating “chained charge”. Don’t use them against pikes or superior heavy infantry. Use them against enemy cavalry (even superior) and medium foot. At all times screen them from enemy ranged units and guard the flanks of your gajas, because they are extremely vulnerable to morale drops and when routing they can send multiple of your units to the hills as well.
Thanks, Swuul and kraff! Wish I had followed your advice the other day... ;) But now I have a new shot at it. :)
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

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