Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

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Retributarr
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Retributarr » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:56 pm

Kanthe wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 pm
Hi there. New units, I like!
But one thing: In spanish civil war, the Panzer II was not used!
Only Panzer I A and B where used in Spain.
"Hoo-ray!!!" "Kanthe!"... 'welcome' to the order of "Stool-Pigeons!"... we need all of you and more of you... to make sure that this Game does'nt go down the 'Rat-Hole'. Thanks for having the candor and determination to set things straight!... in making it known that the PzII was not in the Spanish Civil War!.

I suspected that to be the case myself, but I didn't know for sure... and I wasn't determined enough to make the effort to check it out for verification purposes.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:10 pm

Kanthe wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 pm
Hi there. New units, I like!
But one thing: In spanish civil war, the Panzer II was not used!
Only Panzer I A and B where used in Spain.
Since you mention it, yes we considered that. Which is why Panzer IA and IB are the only tanks available for normal purchase.

So fear not, because just like the Verdeja, and captured equipment, the Panzer IIA is only available by special means, not a regular unit with unlimited availability. :D

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by adiekmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:01 am

JaM2013 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:08 pm
sebb81 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:02 pm
JaM2013 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:01 am
T34 is a mythical tank, but problem is, it was not that great besides the initial shock in 1941 when Germans didnt really have guns that could deal with more than 60mm of armor at medium distances, but that doesnt mean it stayed that way entire war... when PaK40 came, T34 were getting killed at insane rate (20.000 T34 every year) because flaws these tanks had were extremely impacfull
I think your numbers are overestimated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34#Mass_production
my fault, it was supposed to be 20000 tanks, but not all were T34. in 1942 they lost 6600 T34 tanks(15100 total), in 1943 it was 14 700 T34 (23500 total tank lost) and in 1944 they lost 13700 T34 out of 23700 tanks lost. Overall, out of 54550 T34 manufactured during WW2, 44900 were lost ( 83% loss rate) btw in 1941 they lost 2300 T34 and 900 KV tanks, out of 20500 tanks lost by Soviet Red army(it counts tanks with units and delivered to units till end of the year)...

more details here:

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the- ... rformance/

fully agree especially with this quotation:
Of the total of 20 500 Soviet tanks lost in 1941, approximately 2 300 were T-34s and over 900 were mostly KV heavy tanks.(7) Even if the T-34’s loss ratio was better than seven for every German tank, it was still most likely in the region of four or five to one. Frankly, if 2 300 of any new Wehrmacht tank type had been lost within six months of its first deployment, even with a loss ratio of one to one (let alone 0.2-0.3 to one), then most WWII historians would have described the tank’s combat record as an unmitigated diaster.
I read much of the Wikipedia article just now in addition to what I've read in the past. It must be repeated here: A large contribution to heavy Soviet tank loses (including the T-34) was poor training and command by their crews, especially when compared to the Germans. This cannot be overestimated. So, these loss statistics can give the appearance of the T-34's capabilities being over-rated, but that would be misleading in and of itself.

I've seen elsewhere in forums where someone asks, "What would win, an M1 Abrams vs. a Leopard 2 A6?" Replace either of those with any modern battle tank and the answer is, "it depends." They all have the ability to destroy the others, so it comes down to tactics, use of cover, positioning, etc. In short, the skill/training of the crew.

Recent reports of the Turkish army's Leopard 2 tank loses to ISIS fighters on their boarder with Syria have brought some to question how good the Leopard 2 tank really is. But once again, experts have commented that it was their poor use that resulted in their destruction. So, even in modern times we see how much training and skill of the crew plays a hugely important role.

Same can be said about fighter vs. fighter aircraft in aerial combat.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Retributarr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:35 am

It is not the "quality of the weapon" in itself...:

It is not the quality of the weapon in itself that is of the most importance, it is on the other hand, the quality of the operator(s) that can fully maximize the most effective use of the weapon that is of the foremost importance!.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by dalfrede » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:23 am

Kanthe wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 pm
But one thing: In spanish civil war, the Panzer II was not used!
Only Panzer I A and B where used in Spain.
Yes, you use Pz1A and Pz1B, plus 'captured' tanks.
I believe there may be a Pz2 as a bonus near the end.
This is not a Blitz.
As I said on Steam, 20% will love AO:SCW, 20% will hate it.
YMMV.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:31 am

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:01 am

Recent reports of the Turkish army's Leopard 2 tank loses to ISIS fighters on their boarder with Syria have brought some to question how good the Leopard 2 tank really is. But once again, experts have commented that it was their poor use that resulted in their destruction. So, even in modern times we see how much training and skill of the crew plays a hugely important role.
There's video on Youtube of a Syrian tank being destroyed by a grenade thrown down the barrel .. internal explosions causing it to brew up in seconds. Its down to how you disperse and train them but also how you protect them.

P
............................

Pat a Pixel Pusher

............................

JaM2013
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by JaM2013 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:12 am

adiekmann wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:01 am
JaM2013 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:08 pm
sebb81 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:02 pm


I think your numbers are overestimated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34#Mass_production
my fault, it was supposed to be 20000 tanks, but not all were T34. in 1942 they lost 6600 T34 tanks(15100 total), in 1943 it was 14 700 T34 (23500 total tank lost) and in 1944 they lost 13700 T34 out of 23700 tanks lost. Overall, out of 54550 T34 manufactured during WW2, 44900 were lost ( 83% loss rate) btw in 1941 they lost 2300 T34 and 900 KV tanks, out of 20500 tanks lost by Soviet Red army(it counts tanks with units and delivered to units till end of the year)...

more details here:

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the- ... rformance/

fully agree especially with this quotation:
Of the total of 20 500 Soviet tanks lost in 1941, approximately 2 300 were T-34s and over 900 were mostly KV heavy tanks.(7) Even if the T-34’s loss ratio was better than seven for every German tank, it was still most likely in the region of four or five to one. Frankly, if 2 300 of any new Wehrmacht tank type had been lost within six months of its first deployment, even with a loss ratio of one to one (let alone 0.2-0.3 to one), then most WWII historians would have described the tank’s combat record as an unmitigated diaster.
I read much of the Wikipedia article just now in addition to what I've read in the past. It must be repeated here: A large contribution to heavy Soviet tank loses (including the T-34) was poor training and command by their crews, especially when compared to the Germans. This cannot be overestimated. So, these loss statistics can give the appearance of the T-34's capabilities being over-rated, but that would be misleading in and of itself.

I've seen elsewhere in forums where someone asks, "What would win, an M1 Abrams vs. a Leopard 2 A6?" Replace either of those with any modern battle tank and the answer is, "it depends." They all have the ability to destroy the others, so it comes down to tactics, use of cover, positioning, etc. In short, the skill/training of the crew.

Recent reports of the Turkish army's Leopard 2 tank loses to ISIS fighters on their boarder with Syria have brought some to question how good the Leopard 2 tank really is. But once again, experts have commented that it was their poor use that resulted in their destruction. So, even in modern times we see how much training and skill of the crew plays a hugely important role.

Same can be said about fighter vs. fighter aircraft in aerial combat.

Problem of PC2 is it only takes best possible values and ignores everything else... T34 had mediocre visibility. Commander had to load the gun, therefore could not observe the battlefield and find possible targets, instead, it was gunner who was searching for targets through his gunner sight, which had limited field of view, therefore he did not see if somebody was flanking the tank, which is exactly how German tankers managed to get close to them and destroy them by firing into weak sides.. 2man turret also meant internal space was cramped, ammo was hard to manipulate therefore rate of fire suffered, and was usually 3-4x lower than rate of fire of Panzer IV.. (Panzer III had even higher due to lighter 5cm ammo). T34 had terrible hatches, which were practically impossible to open, so if tank got penetrated and ammo started burning, crew was doomed inside, which is main reason why there were 3.1 dead per every destroyed soviet tank during WW2... (US Shermans had 0.5 dead per destroyed tank) Also, these tanks did not even have radios, therefore in combat, unit of T34 tanks fought all on themselves, company commander could not command his unit because he was operating the gun of his own tank and had absolutely no idea whats going on around him... so T34 design was responsible for particularly bad tactics of soviet tank units...

This meant that no matter how experienced crew was, they died with the tank - so T34 was responsible for Soviet tankers not getting more experienced because they just did not usually survived tank destrouction, which happened very often (83% of T34 tanks were destroyed as showed in statistics)

So its beyond me how you wanna have T34 portrayed as a super tank.. when it was never superior to German mediums... and as I said, Hard Attack values given to them are completely ridiculous, F34gun was nowhere near effectivity of KwK40 in Panzer IV, and was even worse than US 75mm M3 inside of Sherman tank.

and regarding your comparations of M1 and Leo2 etc - these tanks are practically identical in their design... they share several technologies and differ in few minor design choices based on country preference... of course combat between these two would depend more on tactics and crew... T34 vs German tanks in WW2 was something completely different... German tanks had superior internal ergonomics... they were first tank designed "modern way" with 3-man turret, so each crew member had strict role and did not had to do other things while in combat... commander was searching for new targets, gunner fired the gun and loader loaded it... that gave German tankers huge advantage against tanks with different designs like French or Soviet (French tanks were even worse than T34, they had 1-man turret and no proper hatch so commander who was also a loader and gunner had to get out of turret through rear door to look for targets..)

German tanks lacked the armor initially against huge 76gun.. thing is, to exploit it, you need to hit them.. and to hit them, you need to see where they are.. if you cant.. it really doesnt matter if they have 30mm or 50mm armor on them... and one thing - Soviet tank ammo was of very bad quality manufacturing wise but also technologically. they used uncapped ammunition, which was a lot less effective against German Face Hardened armor.. which means that 50mm Face Hardened armor on Panzer IIIJ or Panzer IVF was actually capable stopping 76mm AP round at distances greater than 1000m (it increased armor toughness by 15-20% in average). Both PzIIIJ and PzIVF had gun mantlet 55mm thick which was also curved, this means that turret front on these tanks had resistance against soviet AP rounds much higher than usually mentioned (main reason why these turrets were not up-armored later, but front hull was).. at the other side, T34 front turret was 45mm thick welded plate, or 52mm thick when turret was cast.. Cast armor had usually lower resistance.. Soviets rated both welded and cast turret to have approximately same protection... which means that both Panzer IIIJ and Panzer IVF had better protection on the turret front than T34 in 1941...

and it also means that because Germans used Face Hardened armor on their tanks, these tanks armor was weaker when they were hit by capped ammo (APCBC) which western allies used on their tanks.. Sherman initially started with M72 AP (uncapped) round, which had reduced performance against FH armor, but later got new M62 APCBC, which had much higher penetration against such armor (M72 AP penetrates 75mm at 500m vs FH armor, where M62 penetrates 95mm in same conditions)

So again, its beyond me how T34 got its values so high and everybody else is set so low... it has no base in actual history data and i guess whoever is responsible for unit stats, nitpicked certain things without overall picture...
Image

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by sebb81 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:56 am

@JaM2013: Very interesting posts!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Retributarr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:24 am

"JaM2013"... I see that you are continuing on with your 'Stool-Pigeon' analytical-technical-critiques' of the assigned combat values of the 'Russian-Tanks'. So be it!.

I strongly agree with your "informative analysis"... and I hope that someone from 'Slitherine' will take notice of it and then act on such given information that you have just presented!.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by ahtf » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:41 am

Historisk accuracy can also go to far. It’s supposed to be a game so need to be fun.

I’m guessing some of the stat choices are made so they don’t have to fill the map anymore with enemy tanks for the mission to be challanging.

In pz1 the only problem for me was the share number of enemies in the last missions, which made the game abit to sluggish for me. Worsening the stat of the soviet armour would probably lead to the necessity of even more enemy units. Which I think would make the game worse

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by JaM2013 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:38 am

If that was the case, then why Western Allies are so weak??? anyway, its not just historical accuracy at stake.. World War II was practically a technological race, where certain weapons were brought in, to overcome others.. and PzC2 game is using this approach, because you are upgrading your units as war progresses.. but if one side is skewed the way Soviets are, this technological race doesnt work.. Panzer IVG was superior to T34 in 1942.. it had absolutely no problem fighting it with decent advantage.. but if you look at in-game stats T34 is always superior to it... technological advance for German side is lost, because you dont get the amount of advancement as you should... Same thing with Panther vs T34/85... i dont know why is T34/85 made to have same HA as Panther, but in reality Panther was a lot more effective tank which could fight even against soviet heavies.. T34/85 was not in the same ballpark as proven plenty of times during WW2, and later in Korea when it was badly destroyed by US Shermans and Pershings (Pershing was aproximately as effective as Panther)..

It has nothing to do with game balance.. it makes things worse and makes game unbalanced.. to me, it looks like whoever did the unit stats is under Russian propaganda or something... hard to understand it otherwise...

edit:

And T34 is just one of many inconsistencies in the equipment file... it was something that kicked me in eyes when i looked through units.. ill give you another example - Panzer IVH and Panzer IVJ - these tanks were practically identical, where J variant had same gun, same armor, but did not get electrical turret traverse to save some space, and instead, got the larger fuel tanks so it had longer maximum range it could move without refueling.. it was attempt to build more affordable Panzer IV at the end of the war... Guess how these tanks differ stats wise in Panzer Corps 2 -- Panzer IVJ has higher ground defense (23 vs 20 - mind you Panther has 24!!!) higher Hard Attack (22 vs 21) and SAME FUEL... go figure...
Image

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by AlbertoC » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:06 pm

B ythe way... we have a surprise for you.

In two hours (at 3 pm BST) we will be streaming Spanish Civil War on our Twitch channel.

https://www.twitch.tv/slitherinegroup

kondi754
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by kondi754 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:42 pm

AlbertoC wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:06 pm
B ythe way... we have a surprise for you.

In two hours (at 3 pm BST) we will be streaming Spanish Civil War on our Twitch channel.

https://www.twitch.tv/slitherinegroup
Watched :) The film makes a great impression

Retributarr
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Retributarr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:50 pm

Hey!!!... I live in a different 'Time-Zone':

I missed the 'Really-Big-Shew' by a couple of hours!.
https://www.twitch.tv/slitherinegroup

Might it not be posted for viewing when some of us 'Others' can access it at our convenience?.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by adiekmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:46 pm

JaM2013 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:38 am
If that was the case, then why Western Allies are so weak??? anyway, its not just historical accuracy at stake.. World War II was practically a technological race, where certain weapons were brought in, to overcome others.. and PzC2 game is using this approach, because you are upgrading your units as war progresses.. but if one side is skewed the way Soviets are, this technological race doesnt work.. Panzer IVG was superior to T34 in 1942.. it had absolutely no problem fighting it with decent advantage.. but if you look at in-game stats T34 is always superior to it... technological advance for German side is lost, because you dont get the amount of advancement as you should... Same thing with Panther vs T34/85... i dont know why is T34/85 made to have same HA as Panther, but in reality Panther was a lot more effective tank which could fight even against soviet heavies.. T34/85 was not in the same ballpark as proven plenty of times during WW2, and later in Korea when it was badly destroyed by US Shermans and Pershings (Pershing was aproximately as effective as Panther)..

It has nothing to do with game balance.. it makes things worse and makes game unbalanced.. to me, it looks like whoever did the unit stats is under Russian propaganda or something... hard to understand it otherwise...

edit:

And T34 is just one of many inconsistencies in the equipment file... it was something that kicked me in eyes when i looked through units.. ill give you another example - Panzer IVH and Panzer IVJ - these tanks were practically identical, where J variant had same gun, same armor, but did not get electrical turret traverse to save some space, and instead, got the larger fuel tanks so it had longer maximum range it could move without refueling.. it was attempt to build more affordable Panzer IV at the end of the war... Guess how these tanks differ stats wise in Panzer Corps 2 -- Panzer IVJ has higher ground defense (23 vs 20 - mind you Panther has 24!!!) higher Hard Attack (22 vs 21) and SAME FUEL... go figure...
Despite my counterpoint earlier, I DO agree to at least some extent with you. Your example re: IV H and J is spot on. That's ridiculous. Stats for equipment is something that is and has been forever argued about. I just haven't really analyzed them for PC2 that closely yet. I have found many examples of where I felt PC1 was more accurate, but not always. It's a tricky thing, and the more you dive into it the more complicated you can see it become. But some things are plain as the nose on my face. For instance, armor penetration stats from testing was done by all the major combatants, so versions of the tank that used the exact same main gun should not have its HA go up unless some other compelling reason/upgrade can explain it, like tungsten core AP ammo had become commonplace. But having a better turret/visibility or the like, should increase the initiative or whatever instead, not the HA. One just has to be careful because any one aspect can skew the stats.

The one area that I don't like is how all "regular" infantry, regardless of nation, have basically the exact same stats. To an extent, yes, I can accept that because experience makes up for a lot of it which comes with stars. But otherwise, really? A zero star Wehr Infanterie should be identical to Italian reg infantry for instance? I liked how this was done - perhaps overdone - in PC1 better.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by JaM2013 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:53 pm

To me it looks like PC2 stats are done by somebody who did not work on PZ1 at all... multiple tanks have practically identical values which means only difference is their actual look and nothing else - T34/85 - Panther and Sherman Firefly have all practically identical stats (and i would really like to know how did they came with the idea that firefly had armor protection on pair with Panther G..) this means that game throws away any kind of uniqueness of tanks out of the window... i dont know what that is, but its definitely not balance...
Image

Retributarr
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Retributarr » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 pm

JaM2013 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:53 pm
To me it looks like PC2 stats are done by somebody who did not work on PZ1 at all... [Ret: It's beginning to look that way!] multiple tanks have practically identical values which means only difference is their actual look and nothing else [Ret: I Agree!] - T34/85 - Panther and Sherman Firefly have all practically identical stats [Ret: The Sherman wasn't even a close match to the Panther!] (and i would really like to know how did they came with the idea that firefly had armor protection on pair with Panther G [Ret: The "Fire-Fly" had "Tissue-Paper" for armor compared to the Panther G!] ..) this means that game throws away any kind of uniqueness of tanks out of the window... i dont know what that is, but its definitely not balance...[Ret: Yes!... not realistic-balance. However... I personally am willing to sacrifice "Some-'Realism"... to make the Game work out as reasonably-historically that it can!... otherwise the Game would/could swing wildly in the opposite direction!.]

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by BaronVonWalrus » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:50 pm

Some very insightful contributions here, which I've enjoyed reading.

However, as the game is ostensibly a battalion / regimental unit scale affair (I think?), going for full on historical accuracy would see the Germans in increasing logistical difficulties by late '43 / early '44 with replacements especially nerfed to within an inch of their lives. Yes, a company of properly-utilised Panther Gs are going to win a duel against the same number of T34-85s or Fireflies on a level playing field based on technical stats,; however, the game could choose to model the German strategic metals shortages (reduced armour effectiveness), supply problems (fuel and ammo limitations) and place restrictions on your ability to provide elite replacements (or indeed any replacements at all)!

That 5-star Panther unit would be great on paper, but if it could only field about 30 operational tanks it would be in trouble against a full-TOE soviet equivalent regardless of differences between the capabilities of the individual vehicles.

If we were simulating individual vehicles a lá Combat Mission, then by all means I agree that the tech gap between particular vehicles in the same broad category and "moderness" timeframe should be wider. I think though that some abstraction comes with the territory.

Just my 2p worth.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by JaM2013 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:04 am

If thats the case then why even have certain tanks in the game? why not call them tanks like in Hearts of Iron 4? This is not what Panzer General and Panzer Corps games were about...
Image

Retributarr
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Spanish Civil War || Dev Diary #2

Post by Retributarr » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:29 pm

" I'm Not Knowing What To Do!!!":

"BaronVonWalrus" and "JaM2013"... both positions or points of view 'have Merit', I will venture that perhaps some-kind of 'Compromise-Solution' of both positions can be made to mutual satisfaction.

Yes!... we definitely have a problem here, and it needs to be dealt with... So!!!... why-not..."lets get with the task of resolving it"!.

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