[Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
MultiPurposeCanine
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[Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by MultiPurposeCanine » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:58 am

I admire the gameplay but the campaigns feel very generic and dull. Yes I know there is the option to combine it with Empires for this Grand Campaign experience but that is not what I am looking for.

I really like the base idea of FOG2 which is following a certain (historical) path of a Nation/General/War with decisions and force management thrown in to make things more dynamic. Unfortunately the FOG2 campaigns how they are currently might be one of the ugliest and most uninspiring implementations I have ever seen with this campaign system.

Would be great if we could get more sophisticated and fleshed-out campaigns in the future.

Athos1660
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Athos1660 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:05 am

FoG2 is about battles and tactics, not about strategy, logistics and management. Current campaigns reflect that and do the job, allowing to play a series of battles.

I don't know what the devs' plans are but I for one wouldn't mind seeing them keeping on focusing on they are very good at (tactic gameplay on the battlefield) while, if possible, expanding the timeframe.

I must admit I don't often play the campaigns.
Last edited by Athos1660 on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

kronenblatt
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:07 am

MultiPurposeCanine wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:58 am
I admire the gameplay but the campaigns feel very generic and dull. Yes I know there is the option to combine it with Empires for this Grand Campaign experience but that is not what I am looking for.

I really like the base idea of FOG2 which is following a certain (historical) path of a Nation/General/War with decisions and force management thrown in to make things more dynamic. Unfortunately the FOG2 campaigns how they are currently might be one of the ugliest and most uninspiring implementations I have ever seen with this campaign system.

Would be great if we could get more sophisticated and fleshed-out campaigns in the future.
Have you tried the Tides of Conquest tool?
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

SLancaster
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by SLancaster » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:11 am

I agree with Athos, this is mainly a tactical wargame with the focus being on the battlefield itself. The campaigns are a bit of fun for some and then you can use Empires for the full strategic overlay.

In my mind, this game has always been about multiplayer. There are a number of people who do just play single player campaigns but I think the game shines in multiplayer. I have seen this in other tactical wargames like Sanctus Reach and Chaos Reborn. These games were good but the campaigns were average at best.

That is not to say that you shouldn't ask them to do a bit better!

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by pompeytheflatulent » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm

I actually had high hopes that FoG: Empires would fill this need. Unfortunately the portion of the game that translates units from Empires to FoG2 was handled extremely poorly, with generic units in Empires that often translated into something completely different in FoG2. Sometimes 1 unit becomes 3 units, 2 units becomes 1 unit, skirmishers become medium cavalry, etc. The whole mess made me eventually stop using that feature and play Empires as just another AGEOD game.

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:46 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm
I actually had high hopes that FoG: Empires would fill this need. Unfortunately the portion of the game that translates units from Empires to FoG2 was handled extremely poorly, with generic units in Empires that often translated into something completely different in FoG2. Sometimes 1 unit becomes 3 units, 2 units becomes 1 unit, skirmishers become medium cavalry, etc. The whole mess made me eventually stop using that feature and play Empires as just another AGEOD game.
Is this translation moddable?
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by pompeytheflatulent » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:52 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:46 pm
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm
I actually had high hopes that FoG: Empires would fill this need. Unfortunately the portion of the game that translates units from Empires to FoG2 was handled extremely poorly, with generic units in Empires that often translated into something completely different in FoG2. Sometimes 1 unit becomes 3 units, 2 units becomes 1 unit, skirmishers become medium cavalry, etc. The whole mess made me eventually stop using that feature and play Empires as just another AGEOD game.
Is this translation moddable?
I don't know. For some bizarre reason the AGEOD dev team decided to use generic units for all of the factions like generic 'medium infantry' and generic 'heavy infantry' rather than the army lists from FOG2. Then they made their own crappy combat model for auto-resolving battles without porting to FOG2. The whole importing battles to FOG2 thing felt like a tacked on afterthought.

Schweetness101
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Schweetness101 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:45 am

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:52 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:46 pm
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm
I actually had high hopes that FoG: Empires would fill this need. Unfortunately the portion of the game that translates units from Empires to FoG2 was handled extremely poorly, with generic units in Empires that often translated into something completely different in FoG2. Sometimes 1 unit becomes 3 units, 2 units becomes 1 unit, skirmishers become medium cavalry, etc. The whole mess made me eventually stop using that feature and play Empires as just another AGEOD game.
Is this translation moddable?
I don't know. For some bizarre reason the AGEOD dev team decided to use generic units for all of the factions like generic 'medium infantry' and generic 'heavy infantry' rather than the army lists from FOG2. Then they made their own crappy combat model for auto-resolving battles without porting to FOG2. The whole importing battles to FOG2 thing felt like a tacked on afterthought.
I saw two threads in the empires modding forum of someone who tried to mod it:

viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96032
viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96282

dunno if they ever got anywhere. I could try my hand at it if there is any interest. Perhaps I could see if it's possible to make one that adds extra unit conversions for dlc units

kronenblatt
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:12 am

Schweetness101 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:45 am
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:52 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:46 pm


Is this translation moddable?
I don't know. For some bizarre reason the AGEOD dev team decided to use generic units for all of the factions like generic 'medium infantry' and generic 'heavy infantry' rather than the army lists from FOG2. Then they made their own crappy combat model for auto-resolving battles without porting to FOG2. The whole importing battles to FOG2 thing felt like a tacked on afterthought.
I saw two threads in the empires modding forum of someone who tried to mod it:

viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96032
viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96282

dunno if they ever got anywhere. I could try my hand at it if there is any interest. Perhaps I could see if it's possible to make one that adds extra unit conversions for dlc units
Yes, I'd be interested: thanks Schweetness. (I initially bought FoG2 in order to play with FOGE, but then got addicted to FoG2 instead... :) So I assume that it would be a blessing if, once I'm back to FOGE, the battles would be ported less generically so the potential of FoG2 is utilised.)
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Paul59 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:57 am

Schweetness101 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:45 am
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:52 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:46 pm


Is this translation moddable?
I don't know. For some bizarre reason the AGEOD dev team decided to use generic units for all of the factions like generic 'medium infantry' and generic 'heavy infantry' rather than the army lists from FOG2. Then they made their own crappy combat model for auto-resolving battles without porting to FOG2. The whole importing battles to FOG2 thing felt like a tacked on afterthought.
I saw two threads in the empires modding forum of someone who tried to mod it:

viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96032
viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96282

dunno if they ever got anywhere. I could try my hand at it if there is any interest. Perhaps I could see if it's possible to make one that adds extra unit conversions for dlc units
See FrenchDude's post from yesterday in this thread:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 5&start=40

I suspected he was working on something, but other than linking Empires to the TT Mod I don't know what he is trying to achieve.
Field of Glory 2 Scenario Designer - Age of Belisarius, Rise of Persia, and Wolves at the Gate.

TT Mod Creator

kronenblatt
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:50 am

Paul59 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:57 am
Schweetness101 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:45 am
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:52 pm


I don't know. For some bizarre reason the AGEOD dev team decided to use generic units for all of the factions like generic 'medium infantry' and generic 'heavy infantry' rather than the army lists from FOG2. Then they made their own crappy combat model for auto-resolving battles without porting to FOG2. The whole importing battles to FOG2 thing felt like a tacked on afterthought.
I saw two threads in the empires modding forum of someone who tried to mod it:

viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96032
viewtopic.php?f=562&t=96282

dunno if they ever got anywhere. I could try my hand at it if there is any interest. Perhaps I could see if it's possible to make one that adds extra unit conversions for dlc units
See FrenchDude's post from yesterday in this thread:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 5&start=40

I suspected he was working on something, but other than linking Empires to the TT Mod I don't know what he is trying to achieve.
Good idea, thanks Paul! I copy FrenchDude in here to see what he can say about it.
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:52 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:46 pm
pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm
I actually had high hopes that FoG: Empires would fill this need. Unfortunately the portion of the game that translates units from Empires to FoG2 was handled extremely poorly, with generic units in Empires that often translated into something completely different in FoG2. Sometimes 1 unit becomes 3 units, 2 units becomes 1 unit, skirmishers become medium cavalry, etc. The whole mess made me eventually stop using that feature and play Empires as just another AGEOD game.
Is this translation moddable?
I don't know. For some bizarre reason the AGEOD dev team decided to use generic units for all of the factions like generic 'medium infantry' and generic 'heavy infantry' rather than the army lists from FOG2. Then they made their own crappy combat model for auto-resolving battles without porting to FOG2. The whole importing battles to FOG2 thing felt like a tacked on afterthought.
FrenchDude wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:30 am
Paul59 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:03 am
gaius21 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:08 pm
if i use your mod in field of glory 2, will the exported battles from empire use your mods models/names?
No, they would not.

As I said before, you would need an Empires mod that has been set up to use TT Mod units, and a Global version of the TT mod activated in FOG2. As far as I know, no such Empires mod exists.
There might be a mod doing just that being worked on at the moment... and it MIGHT be released during this summer :wink:
Hey FrenchDude: please look in this post and in the posts above regarding porting FoGE battles to FoG2. Is that a problem that you see as well? Will your mod fix it?
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

Schweetness101
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Schweetness101 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:07 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:57 am
See FrenchDude's post from yesterday in this thread:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 5&start=40

I suspected he was working on something, but other than linking Empires to the TT Mod I don't know what he is trying to achieve.
interesting! maybe I'll wait to see what he comes up with or send him a pm to see if he wants to collaborate or something

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by FrenchDude » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 pm

Hi everyone :D !
As Paul59 said, I am working on a mod which aims at making FOGE exported battles in FOG2 usable with the wonderful TableTop mod that Paul59 created.
A few months ago, Paul made a "global" version of the FOG2 TT Mod that enables the player to play exported FOGE battles in FOG2 using the TT Mod's unit rosters. For the mod to be usable, two conditions have to be met :
1. The Global TT Mod must be activated in FOG2
2. The FOGE units in the UNITS.CSV file must match the name of a unit in the FOG2 TT Mod's Squad file.

I really love Field of Glory Empires, and I especially appreciate the FOGE/FOG2 conversion feature. However, I've always found that the way that FOGE units were converted to FOG2 was a bit frustrating at times. FOGE units (Regular Infantry, Heavy Infantry, etc...) are fine for the campaign, but when it comes to tactical FOG2 battles, I feel that they don't really do justice to the variety of troops that Field of Glory 2 offers with its various detailed army lists.

When the Global version of the TT Mod released, I've quicky been able to play it using FOGE with just a few tweaks in the UNITS.CSV file. Once you understand how it works, it's as easy as modifying an Excel file. But I wanted to do a bit more than just modifying existing units, I wanted FOGE's exported battles to have units closer to the FOG2 army lists. So I started creating new units in FOGE, and this takes a bit more time.
For example : Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians all have a similar unit roster with a few exceptions in FOGE. I would like them to be more unique, so I'm creating a few new units for each nation to make their army closer to the FOG2 TT Army list (Ex : Illyrian spearmen, Dacian warbands,...)
Another example : The Etruscans. I modified their unit roster, making it closer to the FOG2 TT Mod, with a class-based army (1st class Etruscan Spearmen, Mixed class Etruscan Spearmen, Pila-armed infantry...).

I've modified a few factions already, but I'd like to do more. Unfortunately, I've been very busy the last couple months because of work and exams I have to pass, but I'll have more free time soon. So I intend to release a first version of the mod on the FOGEmpires forum as soon as possible, probably this summer. I already have a playable version of the mod, but I'd like to make it nicer and to cover more factions before releasing it.

My goal is to make a mod adding diversity to the tactical battles using the FOG2 TT Mod, while still respecting the general balance of Field of Glory Empire's campaign, and historical accuracy as much as possible. So there will still be Heavy Infantry, Regular Infantry, Skirmishers, etc... in FOGE, with all their advantages and inconveniences (Ex : Moutain penalty for Heavy Inf, City Defender/Besieger, etc...). But they will be converted to units much closer to the FOG2 TT Mod and FOG2 army lists when playing tactical battles.

I also want the mod to be as easy to use and modify by the community as possible. So I'll try to explain as best as possible how to modify unit conversions, or create whole new units, so if someone has a different view of how the units should be, it will be easily possible to make personnal modifications

Edit : If I can't make the mod as nice as I would like it to be soon enough, I'll probably release what I have already so people who want to use it can play already, and modify it as they wish. Then I'll release my "personnal" version a bit later. If you have any questions about the mod just ask, I'm a bit short on time right now because of my exams, but I'll be more present soon !

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:46 pm

FrenchDude wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 pm
Hi everyone :D !
As Paul59 said, I am working on a mod which aims at making FOGE exported battles in FOG2 usable with the wonderful TableTop mod that Paul59 created.
A few months ago, Paul made a "global" version of the FOG2 TT Mod that enables the player to play exported FOGE battles in FOG2 using the TT Mod's unit rosters. For the mod to be usable, two conditions have to be met :
1. The Global TT Mod must be activated in FOG2
2. The FOGE units in the UNITS.CSV file must match the name of a unit in the FOG2 TT Mod's Squad file.

I really love Field of Glory Empires, and I especially appreciate the FOGE/FOG2 conversion feature. However, I've always found that the way that FOGE units were converted to FOG2 was a bit frustrating at times. FOGE units (Regular Infantry, Heavy Infantry, etc...) are fine for the campaign, but when it comes to tactical FOG2 battles, I feel that they don't really do justice to the variety of troops that Field of Glory 2 offers with its various detailed army lists.

When the Global version of the TT Mod released, I've quicky been able to play it using FOGE with just a few tweaks in the UNITS.CSV file. Once you understand how it works, it's as easy as modifying an Excel file. But I wanted to do a bit more than just modifying existing units, I wanted FOGE's exported battles to have units closer to the FOG2 army lists. So I started creating new units in FOGE, and this takes a bit more time.
For example : Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians all have a similar unit roster with a few exceptions in FOGE. I would like them to be more unique, so I'm creating a few new units for each nation to make their army closer to the FOG2 TT Army list (Ex : Illyrian spearmen, Dacian warbands,...)
Another example : The Etruscans. I modified their unit roster, making it closer to the FOG2 TT Mod, with a class-based army (1st class Etruscan Spearmen, Mixed class Etruscan Spearmen, Pila-armed infantry...).

I've modified a few factions already, but I'd like to do more. Unfortunately, I've been very busy the last couple months because of work and exams I have to pass, but I'll have more free time soon. So I intend to release a first version of the mod on the FOGEmpires forum as soon as possible, probably this summer. I already have a playable version of the mod, but I'd like to make it nicer and to cover more factions before releasing it.

My goal is to make a mod adding diversity to the tactical battles using the FOG2 TT Mod, while still respecting the general balance of Field of Glory Empire's campaign, and historical accuracy as much as possible. So there will still be Heavy Infantry, Regular Infantry, Skirmishers, etc... in FOGE, with all their advantages and inconveniences (Ex : Moutain penalty for Heavy Inf, City Defender/Besieger, etc...). But they will be converted to units much closer to the FOG2 TT Mod and FOG2 army lists when playing tactical battles.

I also want the mod to be as easy to use and modify by the community as possible. So I'll try to explain as best as possible how to modify unit conversions, or create whole new units, so if someone has a different view of how the units should be, it will be easily possible to make personnal modifications

Edit : If I can't make the mod as nice as I would like it to be soon enough, I'll probably release what I have already so people who want to use it can play already, and modify it as they wish. Then I'll release my "personnal" version a bit later. If you have any questions about the mod just ask, I'm a bit short on time right now because of my exams, but I'll be more present soon !
Thanks a lot for the info and good news, FrenchDude, and good luck with your exams! You're probably right in releasing an early version of the mod, with explanations on how to actually modify the unit conversions when exporting battles from FoGE to FoG2, so that units in the FoG2 battles are more unique for that faction and making use of the FoG2 army lists.

EDIT:
FrenchDude wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 pm
A few months ago, Paul made a "global" version of the FOG2 TT Mod that enables the player to play exported FOGE battles in FOG2 using the TT Mod's unit rosters. For the mod to be usable, two conditions have to be met :
1. The Global TT Mod must be activated in FOG2
2. The FOGE units in the UNITS.CSV file must match the name of a unit in the FOG2 TT Mod's Squad file.
...
When the Global version of the TT Mod released, I've quicky been able to play it using FOGE with just a few tweaks in the UNITS.CSV file.
...
My goal is to make a mod adding diversity to the tactical battles using the FOG2 TT Mod, ... converted to units much closer to the FOG2 TT Mod and FOG2 army lists when playing tactical battles.
This approach of yours: does it require the use of Paul's TT Mod, or could the approach (sorry, Paul! :) ) also be applied upon vanilla FoG2 and its vanilla army lists?

Basically:
1. n.a.
2. The FOGE units in the UNITS.CSV file [of FoGE?] must match the name of a unit in the FOG2 vanilla Squad file.

Right?
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by FrenchDude » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:56 am

Yep you are right kronenblatt ! I made the choice to use the Global TT mod fbecause I really like using it when playing FOG2. But if you want to use vanilla FOG2 units, it’s possible to do it as long as you follow the rule no2. If you want to use my mod AND play with Vanilla FOG2 units, you will have to change the name of a few units in the UNITS.CSV of my mod.
Luckily, most units in the FOG2TTMod have the same name has units in Vanilla FOG2, so you won’t have to change all unit names in the FOGE mod’s UNITS.CSV

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:19 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm
I actually had high hopes that FoG: Empires would fill this need. Unfortunately the portion of the game that translates units from Empires to FoG2 was handled extremely poorly, with generic units in Empires that often translated into something completely different in FoG2. Sometimes 1 unit becomes 3 units, 2 units becomes 1 unit, skirmishers become medium cavalry, etc. The whole mess made me eventually stop using that feature and play Empires as just another AGEOD game.
So generic units I FoGE is not the problem, but how they get translated to generic or illogical units in FoG2?
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

Athos1660
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Athos1660 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:29 pm

Wouldn't it be the easiest and the best, just to find a way to translate the FoGE armies into numbers of force points and let the AI and the player choose their best composition in FoG2, according to these numbers and the FoG2 army lists ? I know it would go against the idea of sandbox in FoGE but the army compositions would be coherent...

SLancaster
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by SLancaster » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:09 pm

Yes, Athos gets another thumbs up from me.

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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by kronenblatt » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:42 am

Athos1660 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:29 pm
Wouldn't it be the easiest and the best, just to find a way to translate the FoGE armies into numbers of force points and let the AI and the player choose their best composition in FoG2, according to these numbers and the FoG2 army lists ? I know it would go against the idea of sandbox in FoGE but the army compositions would be coherent...
Yes, that would be ideal. Will of course require formal game development, and until then I'm looking at modding (in FoGE) the conversion of FoGE's generic units into more faction-specific units based on FoG2 army lists, when exporting battles to FoG2 (no new units in FoGE will be created). It will be an unelegant and brute-force solution but that's my trademark... :)

What I will then need help with input from all of you guys which units to convert to for different factions/ethnic groups/areas of origin, etc.
:!: Happy to finally having discovered Field of Glory II! :!:

Paul59
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Re: [Suggestion] Better Campaigns

Post by Paul59 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:00 am

Athos1660 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:29 pm
Wouldn't it be the easiest and the best, just to find a way to translate the FoGE armies into numbers of force points and let the AI and the player choose their best composition in FoG2, according to these numbers and the FoG2 army lists ? I know it would go against the idea of sandbox in FoGE but the army compositions would be coherent...
I can't understand the enthusiasm for this suggestion, surely it would result in FOG2 armies that are even less similar to the original FOGE armies than the present system? And how would the battle casualties then be exported back into the FOGE units?

I don't know if any one has read RBS's description of the current conversion system;

https://steamcommunity.com/games/101139 ... 2631378916

Hopefully that link works, it does on my phone, but not my PC! It seems a pretty sensible solution to me given the problems involved. Although it could possibly do with updating, as several faction specific units have been added to FOG2 since the conversion system was made.

However, it seems to me that the problem here is caused by FOGE using different units to FOG2, so the obvious solution is not to mod the conversion process but to mod FOGE to use FOG2 units in the first place.
Field of Glory 2 Scenario Designer - Age of Belisarius, Rise of Persia, and Wolves at the Gate.

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