Scotland referendum

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vexillia

Re: Scotland referendum

Post by vexillia » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:51 pm

hazelbark wrote:
vexillia wrote:You should always vote for what you want and be prepared to live with the consequences whatever they maybe.
Interesting notion. Quite novel. It never works that way. Most will complain that some nefarious entity tricked them.
Oh so cynical! :-( In that case I maybe should have said:
You should always vote for what you want and whine like a spoilt child if you don't get exactly what you wanted.
Last edited by vexillia on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:13 pm

nigelemsen wrote:One thing I never understood... My aren't scots south of the border allowed a vote? Especially the enorminaty of the vote....
Because then it would never pass in a million years. It's as clear as day that if a Yes vote does happen, there will immediately be a legal challenge based on (a) the prevention of Scots who happen to be living abroad from voting and (b) allowing minors to vote on this huge issue.

@spotteddog: the issues of poverty and illness that you mention are not caused by the rest of the UK, they are partly a function of the remoteness of much of the country. The very things which being a part of a larger community helps to alleviate. It also ignores the reasonably long time that Scotland has already been in command of the NHS and more already, and the increased powers now on offer. The current offer literally seems to let you have your cake and eat it, risk free.

A world broken into tiny fiefdoms is a far worse world indeed.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Vespasian28 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:22 pm

I'm English so have no say in the matter. However, as JD has pointed out, there are going to be huge changes in the way the UK is currently linked to Scotland across a whole swathe of issues.
To unravel that is going to cost a lot of money that neither country has to spare and the rest of the UK taxpayers will foot the bill for something they had no say in.
It is ironic that the destruction of the Union could be decided by a very small minority of (current) UK citizens.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by ravenflight » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:30 pm

I am Scottish by heritage, but have never been there. I still have approximately 30% of my family in Scotland.

I know it's a big issue, but my view is that I hope Scotland vote 'No', but I hope the rest of the UK (meaning England really) realise how close they came and how pissed off some (many?) Scots are.

Even just little things, like referring to the United Kingdom or Britain as England, or not correcting people who do so pisses off a great many Scots.

Bigger issues of things like economics I'm in no position to argue, and are less black and white.

I'm reminded of two movies "Geordie" and "the Man Who Never Was", both of which make deliberate comments about Scotland being BRITISH not ENGLISH.

Is it enough to push a 'Yes' vote? Definitely not. But if I had family who fought and died for 'England', I'd be considering my options. In essence, if the rest of the UK had been seen (in deed as well as in fact) as more than a part of greater England, perhaps this would never have come as close as it has come.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Vespasian28 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:37 pm

It's as clear as day that if a Yes vote does happen, there will immediately be a legal challenge
I don't think so. Minors voting and limiting the vote to residents of Scotland was part of the legal deal agreed setting out the terms of the referendum between Holyrood and Westminster.
Some commentators are now saying that the Westminster Government was so confident of winning that letting minors vote( with their hearts not their heads), denying the vote to non resident Scots( perceived to be more pro Union), allowing "Yes" to be the answer to Scotland becoming independent rather than staying in the Union and allowing a simple majority verdict are now seen as huge blunders.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Vespasian28 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:49 pm

Even just little things, like referring to the United Kingdom or Britain as England
Isn't this something more likely to happen abroad where people generally get confused by the whole United Kingdom/ Great Britain/ individual countries as well thing? We then field "national" sports teams under different names depending on the competition to further confuse the unwary.

I would hope the residents of these islands would be less likely to do the same.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by ravenflight » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:57 pm

Vespasian28 wrote:I would hope the residents of these islands would be less likely to do the same.
They are probably less likely, yes, but I think "England" gets erroneously used for "United Kingdom" and "Great Brtain" a great deal of the time by English people.

Given this is a wargaming site, take a look at my search of the term "English" in the FoG:N site. The vast majority of the use of the term 'English' is actually meant to be 'British'

search.php?keywords=English&terms=all&a ... mit=Search

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Athelas2211 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:56 am

Hi, I am Croatian, and I have no interest in this, but I have to say,
it is extremely expensive to "feed" a new political caste, which wants to prove themselves as being godgiven to the people.

Transformation of former Yugoslavia into swiss-like confederation would have economicaly been much better solution (someone said, economy of scales) but serbian war propaganda, military and nationalists wouldn't have it, and croat nationalists didnt help either.

Anyway, I agree to the most OP facts, as well as the few that strike me as odd.
1. why aren't all the details ironed out BEFORE the referendum in terms of knowing how much will what cost, so that people can know what are they choosing?
2. Croatian citizens all over world have the right to vote, it strkes me as profoundly unconstitutional not to allow people whose motherland is Scotland to vote for it's future?
3. oil around Scotland's coast. Although it's there, the possible income based on it's exploatation is hardly so great. Prices for barrel must go a lot higher for it to be extremly enrichening. Same goes for international fishing...as I heard, Iceland has precendence to a lot of water territory and can exclude foreign fishermen out of the wide area of the surrounding sea.

just my 5 cents, I hope I didn't provoke too much. I see Scotland and Scotts as international identity nation with a long time tradition, that should get a chance to have more influence within the UK, but independencence, like in Croatia, although yearned for emotionaly, will not feed the people, will not provide for EXTREME and growing costs in state health insurance (I'm a health worker, helping in national health system organization) and will not get you many friends in EU (which is shaking occasionaly).

Whatever you choose, good luck.
Out of land Scotts should go and visit their motherland occasionaly and see and feel how do people live at home and bring their experiences and expertise to help out too.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by KyleS » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:22 am

I am interested to hear on what they plan to base the qualifications for Scottish citizenship.

Residence? In which case, a Pakistani who migrated to the UK in 2009 and lives in Glasgow will become a Scottish citizen, but someone born in Glasgow in 1990 who moved to London for work in 2013 will not be eligible. Which seems strange.

Ethnic background? Basing citizenship on ethnic background has been tried many times, and can get nasty. Would those of non-Scottish descent residing in Scotland have less rights than those of Scottish descent? Will they put up with this? How will their fellows of English, Welsh, Pakistani or whatever heritage living across the border feel about this, and will their responses all be peaceful?

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by avisnigra67 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:34 am

nikivdd wrote:The Scottish people have the right to decide their own destiny in Europe and the whole world. If they vote yes, there will be consequences, good and bad but look at so many other nations that were dissolved during the last 25 years. Are things so bad now in Czech Republic, Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia,...? Look at the fine examples of small thriving economies like Finland, Norway and Switzerland. Scotland as an independent nation has a future whether they like it in Westminster or not.
That,s exactly the point I subscribe. From my point of view, all the other considerations are subsidiaries of the most important one: the right of a recognized community of people to decide their own destiny.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by MDH » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:09 am

“Quelle braves gens” JD , to stick your head above the parapet this way. And very well put .

Luckily as the posts, so far ,show, wargamers are rather more courteous of speech than some of those who stalk other online fora eg the Guardian cif where I found my head bitten off far too many times last year for expressing scepticism so withdrew from an unequal fight. :oops:

Like someone said of Kathrine Hepburn one’s emotions have run the full gamut from A to B . But then I have no Scottish connections whatsoever - Irish/Cornish/Sussex. (My partner ,who has lived up there and liked the place a lot , is incandescent with rage whenever “wee Eck” or his sidekick come on the telly ). After two years I have got very tired of it all. Let it be over.

That said Lincoln’s remarks before the Civil War have come to mind many times of late.

“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”

The English language might have been forged specially for that man at that time. Sadly we have no Lincoln of our own - we used ours up in WW2.

Post yes the negotiations will be dire for all of us on this island – and for that reason alone I am a virtual “ No”. So for me it is not so much their being independent as the severe disruption the journey to get there will create and for no benefit to the rest of us in these islands .There are rather more critical issues just now – Ukraine, Syria/Iraq /Ebola – to which our government should be devoting the full measure of their attention with our friends and allies.

But then…. having given this matter considerable thought last night( about 2.47 of our earth seconds :lol: ) after a long email exchange with a New York buddy (who has been a journalist in London and Rome) the only sane way to think about this issue may be to see the whole thing as a minor cosmic joke - a very British thing to do of course.

Of the population of the planet that even knows this is going on ( 5/10% at most?) most even of those view it as just the latest media (including social media) sensation - over by Friday - next story please? For those that are still interested they will see the outcome as a matter of profound insignificance for them. Small bit of slightly larger bit says we don’t want to be part of the slightly larger bit - or almost does. Move on please nothing to see here.

They will still be able to fly to Heathrow shop at Harrods, buy whiskey, watch the golf, buy funny tartan hats, get on a red bus , speculate about Nessie. Giggle at the funny men in kilts….

Maybe we need to be more French - shrug “ merde alors” - then go to off the boulangerie and patisserie - for us English read “Oh pooh- rather they hadn't done that ” then go to the pub and curry house as usual and talk about football (or in our case wargaming .)

We should get used to it and laugh at the insignificant absurdity of it all . How else to get through the next few years post "Yes"?

As to tomorrow's vote - let the dice fly. The gods will be laughing at us either way.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by maximvs » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:43 am

There is one good thing about it. In previous ages this sort of thing would be settled by going to war - in modern society we just go to vote!

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:53 am

avisnigra67 wrote:
nikivdd wrote:The Scottish people have the right to decide their own destiny in Europe and the whole world. If they vote yes, there will be consequences, good and bad but look at so many other nations that were dissolved during the last 25 years. Are things so bad now in Czech Republic, Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia,...? Look at the fine examples of small thriving economies like Finland, Norway and Switzerland. Scotland as an independent nation has a future whether they like it in Westminster or not.
That,s exactly the point I subscribe. From my point of view, all the other considerations are subsidiaries of the most important one: the right of a recognized community of people to decide their own destiny.
Yes, I agree with you both very much. Vote "yes" to give the political establishment (with their neo-liberal politics and austerity measures) a kick in the teeth tomorrow - and then, in the months and years to come, mobilise working class people across Scotland to defeat the "Tartan Tory" wing of the SNP. Scotland now has a great chance to rebuild its social democracy, which was the basis for the post-war settlement across the UK after 1945. This would not by any means be socialism, but it would produce a much fairer society than exists now and it would set a marvellous example for working class people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to emulate.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Sethor » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:03 am

Please, please vote to preserve the Union!

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:29 am

spotteddog wrote:I am a Scot and want to thank all my wargaming buddies for their help in setting out the issues I need to consider before going to the polling station on Thursday :D

It seems to me that there is a potentially a lot to lose and a lot to gain. JD has pointed out the risks as he sees them and that's a fair shout. BUT throughout the recent good times Scotland has endured unacceptable poverty, ill heath, worklessness and hopelessness (the rest of the UK too). I don't think that will ever change as long as we are part of UK plc. A nation of 5m does have at least the chance to tackle these longstanding, intractible, resistant issues in the words of the Chief Medical Officer for Scotland. So that's what I will weigh up in my mind before I put pen to paper on Thursday.

Would I be prepared to be a good bit poorer myself if I honestly believed we could have a good go at this - I probably would. Am I scared by this - too right I am. I hope this is the mental process my fellow Scots go through on Thursday rather than all that stuff about the pound, the army etc.

Finally regardless of how the vote goes some of my besties are English and I expect it to remain that way.

Hunter
Hope you're well Hunter and that the vote gives you what you want. I suspect if it goes the way of the pro-independence campaign the reality will be somewhere roughly in the middle of the sunlit uplands that the "Yes" camp suggests and the chaos and disaster of the "No" camp. There'll be an awful lot of "cost of partition" pain no doubt - few divorces leave both parties richer.

The "No" campaign seem to have made an error in trying to make it a debate about economics. Whereas I suspect in the minds of most voters it's more about being able to control your own destiny, even if the chances are the destiny might not be as good.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the Kingdom of the Isles Independence Party (KIIP) railing against the injustices of Holyrood :D

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by MDH » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 am

maximvs wrote:There is one good thing about it. In previous ages this sort of thing would be settled by going to war - in modern society we just go to vote!
Indeed - what will be needed regardless of the result is cool calm heads and perhaps a period of silence and reflection from all those concerned thus far rather than knee jerk reactions with ill- as well as un- intended consequences.

But I fear the UK media will not allow us that being only too delighted to stir up an " us and them" scenario . They don't like shades of grey ( fifty or otherwise) as it takes far too much air time to explain to us poor numpties and doesn't sell newspapers. And they feed on conflict. So expect a few broken heads by headbangers on both sides real or metaphorical.

As to the rest of the UK I suspect our own version of debrouillage will apply comme d'hapitude. :roll:

So come on rUK folks maybe we should re-think Churchill's idea of union with France .

Or even better maybe become the 51st state- that will solve the sterling currency union issue, the EU membership issue, the monarchy issue and the Faslane Trident issue at a stroke- we won't need any of them ! Oh and if you want stricter border controls theirs are world class.......but then we'd get Piers Morgan back... oh wait... :cry:

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Jekky » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:02 am

The single biggest issue that I have with this vote is that a simple majority will be what decides it.

No matter which way the vote actually goes, it's going to be close, which means almost half of the people don't get what they want - hardly the "will of the people" is it? An issue this big should require at least a 2/3 or maybe even 3/4 majority (maybe still not entirely fair, but a step in the right direction).

The second biggest issue is the amount of uncertainty - both because of the vagueness of the Scottish government's plans, and because of Westminster's refusal to make -any- plans for how to handle a Yes vote. I live in Scotland (and was born here), but at the moment I am in a business partnership registered in England and Wales - I have no idea at all how a Yes vote would impact on my situation, other than to be sure that it would mean extra paperwork :P

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by nigelemsen » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:31 am

On a wargamers slant.... this must have seem much simpler in 1745.... And the aftermath not the best entry in the history of the british army...

oh.. money to be made... who has got the contract to remake all those Union Jacks?
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by marshalney2000 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:16 pm

I await with interest the result and the aftermath. Even if a no vote then those of us who live here in Scotland know that the world has changed and will never be quite the same North of the border. The demon is well and truly out of the bag.
Again if it is a no, I will be interested to see if the Three Amigos can deliver on the promised but not defined pledges to the Scottish electorate. They have promised everything short of moving the UK parliament to Edinburgh and making Westminster the devolved body. I believe their own parties will be afraid of the backlash from the English, Welsh and Irish electorate and will backslide on the promises made. In this case the Scottish electorate will feel betrayed and will react at the next general election further strengthening the SNP and probably creating the climate for a further referendum. This will increase if certain Tories get their way and take the UK out of Europe. This latter scenario would be a clear cause for a second referendum due to the very pro European stand by Scots.
On the latter point how can the No campaign argue that we are better united and not support a United States of Europe with a Federal capital and one currency. Maybe the English do not want that type of better together
Whatever the result of the vote, this is not the end of this story but the beginning of a long series of divisions between UK electorates fighting for their own rights, parties fighting between themselves and party leaders being ousted. What odds would you get on Cameron, Clegg, Milliband and Salmon all being gone in the next year. If promises are not kept then it would also be interesting to see how Gordon Brown will react as to me he seems to have been set up as a fall guy by the No campaign. If he feels he has been betrayed then a possible defection could be on the cards.
Well regardless of the result, buckle your selfs in we are in for a rough ride.
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by MrsWargamer » Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:48 pm

I come from a unique perspective.

I'm Gunn clan, only a couple of generations out of Scotland, I was born In Quebec.

Somehow Scotland separating likely has about as much value as Quebec separating. No one wins, everyone loses something and the pretend gains are likely imaginary.

But that's democracy for ya, everyone has a vote, and when you vote and it bites you in the butt you will only have yourself to blame.

Look at all the countries that have gained their independence since 1900. Oh what a wonderful experience it has always been eh.
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