Russian revolutions, making them right.

PC/MAC : Commander the Great War is the latest release in the popular Commander series to bring the thrill, excitement and mind-breaking decision making of these difficult times to life.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by operating » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:06 pm

For all you players out there; When Russia surrenders, all the cities she has captured go back to the original owners. All captured land hexes do the same. English units on Russian owed Turkey hexes all returned to the production panel.

I'm in the final throughs of an MP match, much to my chagrin the above happened. During the match CP did not attack my Russian Eastern Front (part of his strategy), lined it with units to prevent a Russian push West.. Because CP knew the game rule penalty on Russia, which meant that he really did not have to attack the Russians, just wait them out, while having a strong offense elsewhere. Russia was decimating Turkey, even taking Bagdad, but it did not seem that Russia was gaining NM % from these victories (capturing cities) in MP. In the AI setting those Vic built NM %s.

Russia surrendered with a huge well conditioned army, with a good reseach.

I propose that the Russian penalty of Jan 1916 be either random to a later date or less NM% penalty. Or meet other conditions, to force CP to attack the Russians to acheive the Russian NM penalty. For an educated/experienced player in this game has a decisive advantage.

In another match CP did a strong offense and took several Russian cities. Then in the months before Jan 1916, waited for the clock to run out till Jan 1916, sending units west in the meantime, again because CP knew the game rules.

Was CP doing this in real time in 1915-6?

When Russia did surrender real time, CP units were froze there till they were absolutely sure of the Russian surrender. The same should be true in this game up to 2 hexes back of the Russian border.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by kirk23 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:37 pm

I have sent altered game scripts to the game designers, with amended Russian revolution start date Feb 1917 plus reduced negative national morale penalty's for game testing. In other words Russia should not surrender before late 1917, unless she is being hammered by the Central Powers.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by operating » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:54 pm

kirk23 wrote:I have sent altered game scripts to the game designers, with amended Russian revolution start date Feb 1917 plus reduced negative national morale penalty's for game testing. In other words Russia should not surrender before late 1917, unless she is being hammered by the Central Powers.
Sounds logical to me, and yes some players Hammer my Russians, right Suprass....

Kirk, are they responding to your ideas? For the designers do not respond to the forum members' about these things, but more so to connectivity kind of stuff. I might be wrong, but there does not appear to be a discussion with "The Powers that be" and the forum members.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by kirk23 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:07 pm

The short answer is yes the designers are responding to my ideas, I can't go into details, but we are communicating with the aim of making the game better in every way, please be patient a little longer a patch is in the pipeline!

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by operating » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:09 pm

To be honest; I thoroughly enjoy the game, even more so in MP. If it were not for some in game hic-upps, it would be relatively smooth. Thanks for listening, and pray that your efforts result in a more refined game.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by operating » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:16 pm

Kirk

Maybe you should have a thread where everybody can see what you have to say....

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:29 pm

kirk23 wrote:The short answer is yes the designers are responding to my ideas, I can't go into details, but we are communicating with the aim of making the game better in every way, please be patient a little longer a patch is in the pipeline!
Thank you very much for your efforts, Kirk. I would love to be able to start playing this again. :D

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by kirk23 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:43 pm

The aim is to make the game more enjoyable for all, so with that in mind, if I can help the game, then it goes without saying I will do!

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by LandMarine47 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:56 pm

I'm really excited to play this game soon, but these early revolutions kill the game for me. The way it should work is, the more territory you have, the less of a chance of the revolution! Like mentioned above, it should only happen in 1917. No expect ions. Now in 1916 if the war is not going good, you can suffer combat penalties due to low morale and mutinies.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:53 am

The other thing that used to bug me was when a nation surrendered. Their territory was often a very odd shape - for example Russian territory had great long "wormholes" in it where lone enemy units had travelled to attack isolated settlements. There needs to be some way after a nation surrenders to give them a smaller compact territory, a capital and some of these new Home Guard units. Also, the current army "garrison" units need to be called something else - garrison is not the right word at all.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by BattlevonWar » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:37 pm

Finding that perfect level of balance is essential. The way the NM% is calculated is a little bit tough to incorporate correctly in the game even if you alter the scripts. For game play and for some realism I think a perfect balance must be struck here. Russia must be a potent force and also not be overpowered.. KEY is also the fact Russia would have given the dire home situation eventually gone into Revolution at some point due to War Weariness not due to loss of cities/men/or battles... As Germany was when she surrendered, as most Nations were in WW1...Then the USA comes in to fit the key factor of giving the Western Allies a extra punch but this counterweight has never been properly beta tested by the designers so mostly we leave the USA out and the War is won after the East KO and then West KO...for the CP anyway

If anyone ever played Guns of August they did a good job, you could go east first or west first. Which has some historical feel! Seems West first is particularly tough in this game and allows the Russians to be the easier target! Altering her morale is a fix but it has to be perfect...and then we need to a reason to bring the USA an incentive for both sides I say...

Possible Fixes:

1. Alter Russian Surrender
2. Give the West Entente More Fire Power early to pursue an offensive if East First Strategy is Chosen(that would have to be a scenario setup)
3. See about eventually including the USA to moot the whole point?

4. Anything else?

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by Suprass » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:35 am

BattlevonWar wrote:Finding that perfect level of balance is essential. The way the NM% is calculated is a little bit tough to incorporate correctly in the game even if you alter the scripts. For game play and for some realism I think a perfect balance must be struck here. Russia must be a potent force and also not be overpowered.. KEY is also the fact Russia would have given the dire home situation eventually gone into Revolution at some point due to War Weariness not due to loss of cities/men/or battles... As Germany was when she surrendered, as most Nations were in WW1...Then the USA comes in to fit the key factor of giving the Western Allies a extra punch but this counterweight has never been properly beta tested by the designers so mostly we leave the USA out and the War is won after the East KO and then West KO...for the CP anyway

If anyone ever played Guns of August they did a good job, you could go east first or west first. Which has some historical feel! Seems West first is particularly tough in this game and allows the Russians to be the easier target! Altering her morale is a fix but it has to be perfect...and then we need to a reason to bring the USA an incentive for both sides I say...

Possible Fixes:

1. Alter Russian Surrender
2. Give the West Entente More Fire Power early to pursue an offensive if East First Strategy is Chosen(that would have to be a scenario setup)
3. See about eventually including the USA to moot the whole point?

4. Anything else?

Adding some airpower to Entente at early stage of war will be very unhistorical. This kind of warfare was developed during war (at last fighting nations turn thair attention to this kind of weapon after infantry stucked in trenches. From the begining some countries used aircraft to scout on enemy moves but it was still a por designed machines and tactics. From what I know at the begining of war only Russia (and maybe Italy in 1914- before they entered war) had bombers.

About Russia morale I agree with you. Fixing only NM lost from Russian Revolutions isn't enough for keeping game ballence. It is easy to create situation in which Russia crate a "shield" to force CP keeping lot of units on that front and western Aliance will do the rest in 1916/1917. So there should be an option for CP to win a game after Russia will be alive in late years of war- events that bring Russians NM allmoust to 0 and then CP could make a push to finish them.

For now I can't see any other option to win as CP different from destroying Russia first (ok- you can say that I'm a poor CP player because I can't defeat France first). Game should give a choice- do I destroy first France or Russia. But there should be a chance to defend Russia if CP focus on them. Game also should give a chance to use different strategies for Entente- do I attack Ottomans, or I will focus to counterattack in France. For now I can't se a chance to conquer Ottomans eaven If British/ Russia will focus on them (but still those are my personal feelings- maybe I'm too poor or my opponents are to powerfull for me).

Battlevonwar I've got a question for you- in our game with mod- do you focus on destroying Russia first or your intention was different.- If so I think this mod is very near to eliminate Russian problem. You were 9 NM from forcing first Russia Revolution event and from there you should be only one step from defeating them. Only one thing saved me in our game- Serbia which is still alive and making some great work at your back. Other way Russia should be out of war at this stage.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:01 pm

With the Russians, I think the "trick" will be to keep them reasonably strong after the February Revolution event provided they are operating within Russian territorial borders of August 1914 i.e. they are not following Tsarist expansionist war aims even though Tsar is a prisoner and Kerensky is heading the government. The Russian capacity to "defend the motherland" was still a force to be reckoned with after February 1917 until the July offensive collapsed in disaster. Also, Russia should be able to defend Poland more effectively at the start of the game so that it has not lost it by Xmas 1914 as quite often happens now.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by Suprass » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:59 pm

stockwellpete wrote:With the Russians, I think the "trick" will be to keep them reasonably strong after the February Revolution event provided they are operating within Russian territorial borders of August 1914 i.e. they are not following Tsarist expansionist war aims even though Tsar is a prisoner and Kerensky is heading the government. The Russian capacity to "defend the motherland" was still a force to be reckoned with after February 1917 until the July offensive collapsed in disaster. Also, Russia should be able to defend Poland more effectively at the start of the game so that it has not lost it by Xmas 1914 as quite often happens now.
Maybe allowing Entente player to moving units, setting research ect. in Russia from the first turn will resolve problem with the first stage of war. Entente player could decide to defend Motherland or to be offensive. It will enable Russians to save their fleet from sinking...

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by Suprass » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:34 pm

Suprass wrote:
BattlevonWar wrote:Finding that perfect level of balance is essential. The way the NM% is calculated is a little bit tough to incorporate correctly in the game even if you alter the scripts. For game play and for some realism I think a perfect balance must be struck here. Russia must be a potent force and also not be overpowered.. KEY is also the fact Russia would have given the dire home situation eventually gone into Revolution at some point due to War Weariness not due to loss of cities/men/or battles... As Germany was when she surrendered, as most Nations were in WW1...Then the USA comes in to fit the key factor of giving the Western Allies a extra punch but this counterweight has never been properly beta tested by the designers so mostly we leave the USA out and the War is won after the East KO and then West KO...for the CP anyway

If anyone ever played Guns of August they did a good job, you could go east first or west first. Which has some historical feel! Seems West first is particularly tough in this game and allows the Russians to be the easier target! Altering her morale is a fix but it has to be perfect...and then we need to a reason to bring the USA an incentive for both sides I say...

Possible Fixes:

1. Alter Russian Surrender
2. Give the West Entente More Fire Power early to pursue an offensive if East First Strategy is Chosen(that would have to be a scenario setup)
3. See about eventually including the USA to moot the whole point?

4. Anything else?

Adding some airpower to Entente at early stage of war will be very unhistorical. This kind of warfare was developed during war (at last fighting nations turn thair attention to this kind of weapon after infantry stucked in trenches. From the begining some countries used aircraft to scout on enemy moves but it was still a por designed machines and tactics. From what I know at the begining of war only Russia (and maybe Italy in 1914- before they entered war) had bombers.

About Russia morale I agree with you. Fixing only NM lost from Russian Revolutions isn't enough for keeping game ballence. It is easy to create situation in which Russia crate a "shield" to force CP keeping lot of units on that front and western Aliance will do the rest in 1916/1917. So there should be an option for CP to win a game after Russia will be alive in late years of war- events that bring Russians NM allmoust to 0 and then CP could make a push to finish them.

For now I can't see any other option to win as CP different from destroying Russia first (ok- you can say that I'm a poor CP player because I can't defeat France first). Game should give a choice- do I destroy first France or Russia. But there should be a chance to defend Russia if CP focus on them. Game also should give a chance to use different strategies for Entente- do I attack Ottomans, or I will focus to counterattack in France. For now I can't se a chance to conquer Ottomans eaven If British/ Russia will focus on them (but still those are my personal feelings- maybe I'm too poor or my opponents are to powerfull for me).

Battlevonwar I've got a question for you- in our game with mod- do you focus on destroying Russia first or your intention was different.- If so I think this mod is very near to eliminate Russian problem. You were 9 NM from forcing first Russia Revolution event and from there you should be only one step from defeating them. Only one thing saved me in our game- Serbia which is still alive and making some great work at your back. Other way Russia should be out of war at this stage.

I readed Airpower not Fire Power i BVW post... :oops:

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:58 pm

Suprass wrote:Maybe allowing Entente player to moving units, setting research ect. in Russia from the first turn will resolve problem with the first stage of war. Entente player could decide to defend Motherland or to be offensive. It will enable Russians to save their fleet from sinking...
I think they need more army units than garrison units in Poland and the terrain/winter effects need to be more severe in that part of the world (same with the Alps too). Mountains should be impassable to artillery except by rail.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by operating » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:48 pm

Suprass wrote:
stockwellpete wrote:With the Russians, I think the "trick" will be to keep them reasonably strong after the February Revolution event provided they are operating within Russian territorial borders of August 1914 i.e. they are not following Tsarist expansionist war aims even though Tsar is a prisoner and Kerensky is heading the government. The Russian capacity to "defend the motherland" was still a force to be reckoned with after February 1917 until the July offensive collapsed in disaster. Also, Russia should be able to defend Poland more effectively at the start of the game so that it has not lost it by Xmas 1914 as quite often happens now.
Maybe allowing Entente player to moving units, setting research ect. in Russia from the first turn will resolve problem with the first stage of war. Entente player could decide to defend Motherland or to be offensive. It will enable Russians to save their fleet from sinking...
Suprass

Actually the Russians (in this game) are supposed to enter the war in 4 turns, but the way it goes is; Turn 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, which to me is 5 turns. That's a 3 turn advantage to CP...

Kirk made a good arguement (historical view), that the very least the Russians should be able to Research, maneuver, or possibly accumulate PP from the start, which I agree with.

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Re: Russian revolutions, making them right.

Post by BattlevonWar » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:41 pm

Suprass makes a great point, we have a mode where the 80% NM surrender is altered to 60%. I focused on France and Russia BOTH and right now it's nearly 1917 and I'm losing the game. Technically there is a gap for the Entente and maybe Russia doesn't have to be where that gap is filled. The point being is if the CP point every last man into an offensive there, they should have won pretty easily...then it would be up to France and Great Britain to drive into CP territory, perhaps altering when Italy/USA join the War. Likewise if the CP go all out in the West, Romania might join more quickly and Russia might benefit from being able to launch her own offensives. What does Russia lack to do this? What does France/Great Britain lack early on? There is a lot of dynamic to go over here... But Suprass found the simple answer, alter Russian surrender.

I could still defeat Russia in my mind if it's only 9% more NM to kill the Bear, but the point is I will have to surrender some real estate somewhere else and that will give the West an advantage, and that is balance and that is what we're all looking for here. Just Historical accuracy which well, would be nice but game balance. For no Russia can survive 1916 with a real CP Player!

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