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Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:53 am
by Historion
Eastern Front = Western Front = stalemate

Starting a campaign as Central Powers usually quickly leads to an identical stalemate at the western and eastern front due to high entrenchment values for units of all factions.

Since all major factions in CtGW basically have the same technologies available for research and research speed (except for +20% Focus) is more or less equal for all factions (only neglectably depending on additional # of labs), the units of all major factions usually have the same stats, e.g. German units equal Russian units equal bulgarian units.

In the historical Great War, the Eastern Front was a much more dynamic front and entrenchment was not such a problem as on the western front. It is said that Russian troops were numerous but poorely equipped. Therefore I wonder if the game would evolve in a more historical way if Russia and other factions were excluded from Research and instead would get a Bonus for Unit Production, e.g. higher PP Income. Germany, France, Britain would be the only factions to do Research inspired by their shared experience of industrialization and the trench warfare at the western front and therefore would be the only factions with high level units.

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:55 am
by Parkingtigers
I actually lean the other way, I feel there should be more options for research and production for some factions. I kept Belgium in the war, and have mobilised nearly all their manpower. But there's nothing else for them to do aside from recruiting troops for the front lines. Now historically they were taken out of the war right at the start, but if a player changes history then clearly it's fair to give them other options as to how to support the war effort. Why not make artillery and munitions factories to help out? Why not focus on making an elite air force? In a small country with limited numbers of soldier-age men, finding other ways to assist would make more sense.

Likewise with Turkey. They seem to have painfully few options. They did historically have an air force, albeit with European aircraft.

I just feel it could be very interesting to put more options in the hands of the players. If we choose to spend our PP on labs, and researching and producing units that don't 100% follow the historical order of battle, then how could that be a bad thing? Do we want every war to exactly model the real one? Already it seems Central Powers have a disadvantage. It just seems odd that we can contradict the events of WWI by launching a naval invasion of England or the US, but we can't have Turkey decide to open their own shipyards and start making submarines.

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:21 am
by BattlevonWar
Fair points brought up. Technically, The Eastern Nations do not have the technology that the Western Nations have in WW1. Turkey, Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania and Russia. In fact I am guessing that probably Russia would be the most advanced of all those nations and despite shortages of whatever would have had the capability to make any and all units in the game. Most likely, artillery/ships/subs/aircraft/balloons/tanks(seen pictures of their famous super sized tractor Tanks?)etc... but all other countries would have to be bought, traded or hand me downs from a Major Power. The only serious Naval vessels I know about that the Turks possessed were made in Germany or Britain. I remember reading that during one of the Balkan Wars the Turks had their butts handed to them by German Artillery used by other Balkan Nations... how about gifting some amount of units? : )

Now as far as Military Doctrine is concerned, Germany would have the highest powered units followed by the British and French. They drilled the most. The Russians would have the numbers. As for the Turks, a lot of them didn't have boots. Belgium I am guessing would have made a fair opponent for any nation aside the full might of Germany.

Now despite supply, guns and butter. Things change on your own territory and that might be important to note like in Serbia where they refused to surrender and ended up marching in some pretty harsh conditions over to Albania. So there are a vast many factors to consider here. I would like a slight adjustment in things but I think the balance is tricky and you have to be careful. The game is already quite fractured by whats been done so far as I can see. I am testing out The Entente right now. Seems "WAY TOO MUCH" power. I will see if the CP can last 1 year, realistically as a competitor...Doubtful to me!

BTW: My Austria Hungary oftens ends up as tough as Germany by mid war, she gets all the Balkan and Russian Booty..and perhaps Romania and Italy if the war goes well... really not believable

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:15 am
by Historion
Austria-Hungary, Italy, Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. would all be limited to Level I or II units ...

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:51 pm
by carlisimo
I think the current setup is justifiable. They didn’t end up making big strides in infantry or artillery, but in theory they could have. Anyone can make grenades, helmets, and pillboxes, or can develop new tactics. Developing the industrial capacity to build ships or tanks (or engines) could take more years than the duration of the game.

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:45 am
by BattlevonWar
Saying that the Russians, Austrian-Hungarians should be limited type level 1 or 2 INF is likely right. Also did they or could they make Grenades, barbed wire, and or Artillery, Machine Guns. Look at Gallipoli ... it did seem as though the Turks had mines, barbed wire, machine guns, etc... SO perhaps they should have a limit on their technologies but fighting on the right soil they should have bonuses and that can really only be done in game terms by giving them tech.

It's hard to historically scale that without throwing balance into a nightmare

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:12 pm
by carlisimo
I don’t see the need for a limit; none of the infantry tech developments are industrially intensive.

All I’d like to see is a greater disparity between infantry starting tech levels. At the beginning of the war, German units should be quite a bit better than Russian units, and (arguably) just a notch better than French units. Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman infantry should start out pretty behind too. You could even have some of the less developed countries start without a lab. But that’s as far as I would go. They should definitely be able to invest in it.

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:48 pm
by Historion
The starting techs are set in the scenario file by using the functions UnlockTechnology and ProgressTechnology, e.g. in scenario file 1914.lua :

Code: Select all

 -- France
  ProgressTechnology(0, "industrial_warfare", 5)
  UnlockTechnology(0, "all_centerline_armament")
  ProgressTechnology(0, "torpedo_bulge", 4)
  ProgressTechnology(0, "caterpillar_combat_vehicle", 5)
  UnlockTechnology(0, "bomb_rack")

  -- Britain
  ProgressTechnology(1, "industrial_warfare", 10)
  UnlockTechnology(1, "all_centerline_armament")
  ProgressTechnology(1, "torpedo_bulge", 20)
  UnlockTechnology(1, "diesel_electric_propulsion")
  ProgressTechnology(1, "caterpillar_combat_vehicle", 10)
  UnlockTechnology(1, "armoured_car_chassis")

  -- Germany
  UnlockTechnology(2, "industrial_warfare")
  ProgressTechnology(2, "grenade", 15)
  UnlockTechnology(2, "hydro_pneumatic_howitzer")
  ProgressTechnology(2, "chlorine_gas", 10)
  UnlockTechnology(2, "all_centerline_armament")
  ProgressTechnology(2, "torpedo_bulge", 20)
  UnlockTechnology(2, "diesel_electric_propulsion")
  UnlockTechnology(2, "rigid_airship")
  ProgressTechnology(2, "armed_fighter", 30)

  -- Austria
  ProgressTechnology(3, "industrial_warfare", 5)
  UnlockTechnology(3, "all_centerline_armament")
  ProgressTechnology(3, "torpedo_bulge", 4)
  UnlockTechnology(3, "industrial_train_design")

  -- Russia
  ProgressTechnology(4, "industrial_warfare", 4)
  UnlockTechnology(4, "all_centerline_armament")
  ProgressTechnology(4, "torpedo_bulge", 5)
  UnlockTechnology(4, "bomb_rack")
  UnlockTechnology(4, "heavy_bomber")
  UnlockTechnology(4, "bomb_sight")
  UnlockTechnology(4, "industrial_train_design")

  -- Turkey
  ProgressTechnology(5, "industrial_warfare", 1)

  -- Belgium
  ProgressTechnology(6, "industrial_warfare", 5)
  UnlockTechnology(6, "armoured_car_chassis")

  -- Serbia
  ProgressTechnology(7, "industrial_warfare", 5)

  -- Italy
  UnlockTechnology(8, "industrial_warfare", 1)
  UnlockTechnology(8, "all_centerline_armament")
  ProgressTechnology(8, "torpedo_bulge", 10)
  ProgressTechnology(8, "caterpillar_combat_vehicle", 5)
  UnlockTechnology(8, "bomb_rack")
  UnlockTechnology(8, "heavy_bomber")

  -- USA
  UnlockTechnology(10, "industrial_warfare")
  UnlockTechnology(10, "all_centerline_armament")

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:52 am
by kirk23
For the next game play patch I'm busy with Patch 1.6.0 ? The tech tree has been altered for each Countries starting research level.Meaning that each and every Country,will have a much more varied % research progression,in relation to one another,they don't all start at the same % level. :wink:

Re: Less Tech for some factions?

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:04 pm
by carlisimo
Kirk, wasn't that already the case? They didn't seem to start at the same level… though the differences weren't that great. I assume you're increasing them? Sounds good to me!