When will France surrender

PC/MAC : Commander the Great War is the latest release in the popular Commander series to bring the thrill, excitement and mind-breaking decision making of these difficult times to life.

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Lindorf
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When will France surrender

Post by Lindorf » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:47 pm

This is a really good game, but I'm a bit disappointed about how surrendering is handling: even being completely conquered, France still doesn't surrender!

Here is my situation:
I'm playing Central Powers in balanced mode.
I managed to conquer Paris (after Calais and Rouen), but France didn't surrender despite an information saying that their morale was going down. Well still that seemed quite logical that they didn't surrender at once.
I conquered Verdun, French army was clearly in bad position, but still they didn't surrender. In a similar situation, we could say that they should have try to negotiate an armistice, but, well, they still had Bordeaux as a capital.
I conquered Orléans, Brest, Nantes, and Bordeaux, their army was almost completely destroyed, and they still didn't surrender. Then that seemed totally unrealistic!

Now I'm in April 1916, I conquered the whole French continental territory (every single hex). So basically their army is completely destroyed (they may just have left a few garrisons left in North Africa), they only have Corsica and North Africa, and they still don't surrender. Now that looks like really a big bug in the game!!!

Actually the same happened for Serbia: after being surrounded by Austria and Bulgaria, after taking their both capitals Belgrade and Skopje, I had to destroy any single unit they had (the last one being in Cetinje) to get Serbia to surrender: that doesn't make sense.

Could anyone please tell me what you think about this?

carlisimo
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by carlisimo » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:27 am

I experienced the same thing. With Serbia I thought it was understandable: small territory, lots of partisan activity, and their last city was a capital (starred) city. With France it was a little strange. I could understanding needing to conquer Bordeaux, but when they still kept fighting it didn't feel right. After a few turns they did surrender. I hadn't conquered one of their Mediterranean cities nor their African territories.

Russia didn't surrender as easily as in real life. I had to take Moscow and all their southern cities.

Then I landed one unit in London and the UK surrendered. Portugal took a little more effort; I had to take half the country. The US took two or three cities, including Washington DC.

Lindorf
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by Lindorf » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:12 am

France finally surrendered in August 1916, one turn after Italy surrendered (and after I just started bombed a small garrison in Corsica).
I still think they should have surrendered at least six months before, after I conquered Bordeaux and half of their continental territory.

Egge
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by Egge » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:08 am

The French will not surrender easily. that's true. IMHO that's okay, though. After all, they didn't surrender easily in 1871 either and back then they fought against Germany single-handedly. Why would they surrender faster if they still have allies to rely on?


Generally, the first opponent is always hardest to defeat. Once any one has surrendered the other countries' moral will take a hit and consequently will surrender faster.

Lindorf
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by Lindorf » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:48 am

Indeed France can continue fighting with the help of Italy and England but:
- As long as the two "capitals" (Paris and Bordeaux) are lost and their army very low (as far as I can remember, they had no more than three infantry corps and a few garrisons), they should not continue fighting very long, maybe two or three turns max.
- It seems completely unrealistic that they don't surrender at once when all cities on their continental territory (up to Nice) are lost.
- Just considering France geography and the relative importance of the different cities (the real one, not how it is reflected in the game: Lyon is five times more important than Bordeaux!), I would say that there is no way France can continue fighting as long as Paris, Lyon, Marseille and Bordeaux are lost (plus of course the North of France), unless they have extremely strong Italian on their back.

operating
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by operating » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:09 am

NM (National Morale) has to go to 0 % in able to cause a surrender. If you have not sunk the entire French BB fleet (worth 30 NM), it is harder to achieve surrender, also sinking French convoys contributes to NM loss.

Lindorf
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by Lindorf » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:08 am

@operating: Thanks for this explanation. In my game I deliberately neglect war on seas because I though I had no chance to compete with UK (but then at the end I will have a problem to invade them: their fleet is at least 5 times stronger than mine!). So maybe the problem I raised is just about adjusting how the NM is affected by city losses.

Hence here is a suggestion:
  • - The NM should fall faster when cities from home territory are lost.
    - If this is not already the case, the NM should also fall faster when a fortress is lost than for a regular city (I mean, for France losing Verdun should even trigger a specific event).
    - This NM fall when losing a city / fortress could be inversely relative to the total number of cities / fortress from home territory. I mean that losing a single city is much less painful for Russia than for France.
Also it would be great to see the NM of all countries, so that to help understanding the mechanics, and to forecast and plan what to do: in my case I had the feeling that France would never surrender! And this doesn't seem unrealistic to get information about opponents' NM. Maybe not a precise value, but at least a range (we already have information about when a country will enter war, and actually I think that this information is a bit too much accurate: for example, it is very easy to get well prepared and declare war on Romania just one turn before they would enter war on their own, and then taking them "by surprise").

Currently, in my game, I am now in December 1916, and I'm progressing fast in invading Russia. Their army is now very weak (AI stupidly invaded Turkey via Caucasus with 2 corps and 5 garrisons: but so, after great success in Suez, Ottaman Empire is in bad position, also because English are destroying their artillery thanks to 5 bombers located in Egypt!), and so I will be able to take easily many Russian cities, but I am wondering about what I have to do to get Russia to surrender as fast as possible. They have many "capitals", so if I have to conquer their whole territory as I did for Italy and France, that will last forever!...

operating
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by operating » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:41 pm

- The NM should fall faster when cities from home territory are lost.
- If this is not already the case, the NM should also fall faster when a fortress is lost than for a regular city (I mean, for France losing Verdun should even trigger a specific event).
- This NM fall when losing a city / fortress could be inversely relative to the total number of cities / fortress from home territory. I mean that losing a single city is much less painful for Russia than for France.
Capturing opponents city is +5 NM for you, -10 NM for your opponent.

Capturing opponents fortress is +5 NM for you (I think), -5 NM for your opponent.

Capturing opponents Capital City is 10 NM for you, -20 NM for your opponent.

Unfortunately your stats may not reflect all your NM gains from conquering cities (chart tops out at 120% NM or so, last time I checked).

Lindorf
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by Lindorf » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:59 am

@operating: Thanks a lot for these detailed explanations.
Indeed, maximum NM seems to be 124%.
By the way, that would be good to have an extended manual giving these informations.

As I already said, I do think that, as we have indications about when countries would enter war, we should also have indications about the range of national moral for opponent countries.
Also, I find it a bit odd that capturing a fortress is only -5 NM comparing to -10 NM for capturing a city, since a fortress is much more difficult to capture.

With the numbers you gave, it is even much more surprising that in my game France didn't surrender earlier.
Indeed, I captured all cities in European continental French territory (so Calais, Rouen, Orléans, Nantes, Brest, Dijon, Toulouse, Lyon, Marseille, Toulon and Nice) plus the two capitals (Paris and Bordeaux) plus the Verdun fortress.
So that would be 11 x 10 + 2 x 20 + 5 = 155 to be deducted from French NM. Given that they conquered no city at all on their side (neither sank any fleet), how can they still be fighting?!

One side question: is NM also affected when losing battles (I mean when a unit is retreating or is destroyed)?

Note on my current game:
  • - Russia surrendered very quickly after I started progressing very fast in their territory: they surrendered in January 1917 after I captured Bryansk and Dnepropetrovsk (I even got a little event bug: the turn after they surrendered, I had been notified about the revolution in Saint-Petersbourg, stating that it should lead Russia to surrender!).
    - I now have to defeat UK. That won't be easy because their navy is very strong (and I intentionally neglect research in navy from the start). I will try to compensate this by massive usage of Zeppelins and rail canons, plus counting on AI mistakes: I have just discovered that AI has 12 infantry corps and three bombers in Egypt, but apparently very few in Great Britain!)
    - It seems that Portugal will never enter into war (they are blocked on 5-7 tours indication).

operating
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Re: When will France surrender

Post by operating » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:56 am

One side question: is NM also affected when losing battles (I mean when a unit is retreating or is destroyed)?
Yes, the loss of MP as a result of combat effects both sides (for the countries of unit's origin), which brings down their NM.

Both French and English convoys increase their MP by 1 (one) or more upon reaching respective ports, which would attribute to their holding out longer from surrender, I don't believe that holds true for the Germans though.

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