A little bit of reality please.

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guardsman
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A little bit of reality please.

Post by guardsman » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Hi guys.

I do not know if this is the correct place to register this topic but here goes...

I am just playing GJS Sword beach scenario, and I do appreciate that this is a game and to be enjoyed as such. But the ability of a Sherman DD tank, whilst at sea with I surmise it's canvas screen deployed,to fire it's main gun and to take out two surface units!! I appreciate all the work that has been put in to develop this game but perhaps if this issue could be amended.

However if anyone can show me that this was possible I will duly shut up a be quiet. But all I have read about DD tanks shows it was a miracle that they and their brave crews made landfall.

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by Ranger » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:35 pm

guardsman wrote:Hi guys.

I do not know if this is the correct place to register this topic but here goes...

I am just playing GJS Sword beach scenario, and I do appreciate that this is a game and to be enjoyed as such. But the ability of a Sherman DD tank, whilst at sea with I surmise it's canvas screen deployed,to fire it's main gun and to take out two surface units!! I appreciate all the work that has been put in to develop this game but perhaps if this issue could be amended.

However if anyone can show me that this was possible I will duly shut up a be quiet. But all I have read about DD tanks shows it was a miracle that they and their brave crews made landfall.
These swimming Shermans were incredibly unstable and unseaworthy. As a matter of fact, most of the ones that tried to land at Utah Beach became swamped and sank because of the slight differences in surface/sea conditions that were less favorable than at the other beaches.

Gaurdsman, You're right, it wasn't possible. This should be corrected.

For the benefit of those who may not know this and/or those who may dispute this:

The turret and gun were below the water line of the canvas screen/skirt. Two or three things would have simultaneously happened had the main gun been fired while under way at sea:

1) The shell would have shot through the side of the canvas screen/skirt and punched a large hole that would have breached the canvas, caused the screen/skirt to fail, and caused rapid flooding.....

2) Had the round fired been a high explosive round (which it most certainly would have been for an amphibious assault), and not had a "minimum rotational safety"/"rotational arming", to prevent the HE round from arming itself, and detonating, while still in the barrel or too close, and/or had enough space, between the barrel's muzzle and the canvas screen/skirt, to arm, it would have exploded instantly or centimeters after punching through the canvas screen/skirt... The explosion, and the extreme high water pressure/concussion it created,would have desintegrated the canvas screen/skirt.

3) The shock of recoil of firing the main gun almost certainly would have immediately collapsed the canvas screen/skirt...

Any one or all of the above would have happened had the main gun been fired while still at sea. Any of the three would have sent the Sherman to the bottom faster than rock or stone. The only differences, between the outcomes of any combination of the above happening, would have been measured in milliseconds.

With such an immediate catastrophic failure of the canvass screen/skirt, the crew would have had no chance of escaping before their tank sank. Their only hope would have been that such a failure occurred in shallow enough water that the Sherman came to rest on the bottom before it could roll over onto its side or top (this would have had to be very shallow water indeed), and that the water pressure, at a shallow enough depth, equalized rapidly and enough, before the crew drowned, to allow them to open their heavy hatches and to possibly escape.

As it is, the spring assisted tank hatches on most WW2 tanks were designed to be opened under air pressure and to stop the crewman from accidentally closing or dropping the heavy hatch on his own head or pinching his fingers off. The spring assisted hatches were not intended to, nor strong enough, to overcome the downward force and water pressure of the English Channel.
If it wasn't impossible (water pressure/depth, lung capacity/drowning avoidance, and crew upper body strength would have been the main contributing factors here), it would have been extrememly difficult for a crewman seated in a cramped position, to leverage the force and strength necessary to open his hatch while submerged and under water. It's almost impossible to "put your back into it" from a seating position or anywhere else where you don't have enough room to "get your legs under you" and and can't get "good footing for your feet". Oh yeah, the pitch black dark lightless interior of a sunken, flooded, Sherman tank.......

Incidentally, The modern day U.S. Marines have amphibious armoured vehicles (Amtraks etc) that have top sided, spring loaded, escape hatches that have huge springs to overcome the tremendious downward water pressure that would otherwise make opening them underwater impossible.

Cheers,

Thomas

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DD Shermans... Separating Myth from Truth

Post by GottaLove88s » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:01 pm

Thanks guys, Cor! A guardsman and a ranger fighting in unison?! What chance has a poor Donald Duck got??!! lol

Gents, For some reason folks only remember Omaha when they think of DD's and forget that they were remarkably successful on the other 4 out of 5 D-Day beaches... despite the unfortunate challenge that the sea conditions were about 2x to 6x their expected operating wave height...

But, yes, good catch, darn it!!... There is no way that any DD Sherman should be able to open fire while it's still at sea... Please could you work up a couple of lines of code for our AP and HE.BSFs... essentially you just need to add a check (i) whether the firing unit is a DD_tank, and (ii) if it's driving over water, to then trigger a nullification of any attempts to fire, either voluntarily or in reaction... I'm on shift for the next week/weekends, and the coding is a bit beyond my 'L' plates... But I promise to add it if you forward it... Thanks for the spot!!

But... another thought... you said a DD tank had 'taken out' two units with one shot each?... That doesn't sound like the relatively weak firepower of a DD tank to me?... Are you 100% sure that you weren't attacked by a broadside from a Royal Navy S-class fleet destroyer...??? If that hit you, you'd know about it... Ask any of the guys playing the Ouistreham Tourney... :D

A Little Bit of History...

The DD Sherman was used to equip eight tank battalions of American, British, and Canadian forces for the D-Day landings. They were carried in Tank landing craft (LCT)s. These could normally carry nine Shermans, but could fit fewer of the bulkier DDs.[3] British and Canadian LCTs carried five tanks, the Americans carried four as their LCTs were shorter at about 120 feet (37 m). The DDs would typically be launched around two miles from the shore, swim to the beaches and overpower the German defences. The tank's record was a mixture of success and failure, although they are mainly remembered for their disastrous performance on Omaha Beach.

Sword Beach

On the British Sword Beach, at the eastern end of the invasion area, the DD tanks worked well, as the sea was reasonably calm. The DD tanks from 'A' and 'B' Squadrons of 13th/18th Royal Hussars were launched 2.5 miles (4 km) from shore. Five could not be launched as an LCT's leading tank tore its screen – they were later landed directly on shore – one tank sank after being struck by an LCT.

Gold Beach

On Gold Beach, the sea was rougher. The tanks of the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry were launched late, about 700 yd (640 m) from the shore. Eight tanks were lost on the way in and by the time the remainder landed, Sherman Crab (mine flail) tanks had already destroyed the German artillery and machine-gun positions that would have been their objective. Sea conditions meant the tanks of ‘B’ and ‘C’ Squadrons, from the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards were landed in the shallows. They then drove onto the beach with their screens up so they would not get swamped in the breakers. German anti-tank guns caused heavy losses in some sectors of the beach but the assault was successful.[3]

Juno Beach

On the Canadian Juno Beach, The Fort Garry Horse and the 1st Hussars were equipped with DDs, but only those of the 1st Hussars could be launched. They were assigned to the 7th Canadian Brigade, at the western end of the beach. Some of the tanks were launched at 4,000 yd (3,658 m) and some at 800 yards (700 m); twenty-one out of twenty-nine tanks reached the beach. The 8th Canadian Brigade, at the eastern end of the beach, was forced to land without DD tanks because of rougher seas. They suffered heavy initial casualties, but were still able to make good progress.

Utah Beach

On Utah Beach, the DDs were operated by the 70th Tank Battalion. Armoured support was reduced by four DDs when their LCT was lost to German artillery fire.[3] The remaining tanks were launched 15 minutes late 1,000 yards (914 m) from the beach. Twenty-seven out of twenty eight reached the beach but confusion caused by the massive smoke screen meant they landed around 2,000 yards (1,829 m) from their aiming point and saw little German opposition.

Omaha Beach

At Omaha Beach almost all of the tanks launched offshore were lost, contributing to the high casualty rate and sluggish advance from that beach. One hundred and twelve tanks were assigned to the first wave at Omaha Beach, with 56 tanks in each of the 741st and 743rd Tank Battalions. Each of these battalions had 32 DD and 24 other Shermans (including many Sherman bulldozers for clearing obstacles). Starting at about 0540, the 741st Tank Battalion put 29 DDs into the sea, but 27 of these sank, the remaining two made the long swim to the beach. Some of the crews of the sinking tanks managed to radio back and warn following units not to launch as far out. The remaining vehicles of the 741st Tank Battalion and all tanks of the 743rd Tank Battalion, (except for the four aboard one LCT that was hit by artillery fire just off the beach), were landed directly on the beach, starting at about 0640.

DD Tanks were designed to operate in waves up to 1 foot (0.3 m) high; however, on D-Day the waves were up to 6 ft (1.8 m) high. These were much worse conditions than the tanks had been tested in and hence they were swamped. Also, the tanks of 741st Tank Battalion were launched too far out,[14] about 3 mi (4.8 km) offshore. Considering the inherent difficulty in steering a 35 ton modified tank, it is a tribute to the crews that they got as far as they did. The crews were equipped with DSEA emergency breathing apparatus capable of lasting 5 minutes, the tanks were also equipped with inflatable rafts.[15] Some sources claim that these life-saving measures were ineffective;[16] this was contradicted by the testimony of survivors.[15] Most of the crews were rescued, mainly by the landing craft carrying the 16th Regimental Combat Team),[17] although five crewmen are known to have died during the sinkings.[15]

Until very recently it was believed that most of the DD Shermans of the 741st Tank Battalion were sunk almost immediately. Some stayed afloat for a matter of minutes; according to the crews one tank swam for 15 minutes, another: "We weren’t in the ocean 10 minutes when we had a problem".[15] Tanks at the other four beaches suffered no such problems. New research[by whom?] suggests that the Omaha tanks were aiming for a church steeple on the visible horizon behind the cliffs.[citation needed] In order to maintain their line of sight it is believed that the tanks had to turn progressively away from the shore to combat the waves pushing them down the beach, putting their sides virtually parallel with the shoreline. This meant that the canvas flotation devices were easily swamped. If they had kept going directly forward with the front of the tank headed straight for the beach, they may have reached it.[citation needed]

Others believe that the error was due to the commanders aboard the ships from which the tanks were launched.[who?] They simply gave the order to launch too early, possibly to avoid getting too close to the battle themselves.[citation needed] The possibility of disembarking the tanks directly onto the beach if the sea was too rough had been discussed and agreed upon by Colonel Skaggs and Colonel Upham, (commanding officers of the 741st and 743rd battalions), before the tanks left Portland, England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_tank
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:24 pm

Actually, if there are any clever coders out there willing to help us to improve DD Shermans... we need help to...

1. Add the fire conditions above (wisely observed by Ranger & Guardsman)
2. Animate the 3d icons so that they sit lower in the water, and bounce in the water, the same way that Royal Navy destroyers do
3. Add a random penalty so that maybe 10% will drown every turn that they are at sea... To make all DD's suffer the Omaha conditions where most will drown if they don't reach a beach within <5 turns...

All help gratefully received! :D
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

GottaLove88s
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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:31 pm

Hey Guardsman...

Just thinking more about your DD Sherman 'took out' two units in one turn scenario...

Shouldn't you have German coastal guns in the Ouistreham and Sword scenarios? If a DD Sherman was foolish enough to reveal itself by opening fire while at sea, your coastal guns should have instantly toasted it in reaction fire... Am curious to figure out why this didn't happen...?

(Sounding more and more like a RN destroyer bombarding from out of sight, while some DD Shermans may also have been approaching the beach)

Please would you reproduce the event and post a screenshot... Would help me heaps to understand what happened, so I can fix...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

guardsman
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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by guardsman » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:30 am

Guys,

Thank you for your input on this. I cannot recreate the screenshot as requested, my dog has more computer skills than I, however take my word for it that in this particular scenario it was the tank. It was the period immediately following initial deployment. My surface units were on the extreme right of the screen. A DD tank materialised span 180 degrees fired two separate shots and hit and sank both units. I could probably send you a shot of me with my mouth open. I will ask my opponent " protective daddy " to confirm his dastardly deed. He might even fess up how he found out.

What rubbed it in then was his entire fleet floated past the wreckage.


Look forward to hearing the response, if I did post it in the wrong place could somebody advise where I should have posted this.


Now where did I put my navy.......

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:43 pm

Thanks for the clarification Guardsman, That begins to make more sense...

You mean the DD Sherman fired on two Vorpostenboot?... Yeah, the German armed trawlers are pretty weak hulled and can be holed by a tank (heck, even by a PIAT, if you can sneak one close enough)... Under no circumstances should you put a Vorpostenboot in the way of a Royal Navy destroyer... That's only going to result in one outcome...

However, your first point is well made... DD Shermans should not be able to fire when they're on water... I've added it to my mental list of things to find out a way to fix... Sadly, as Pip will no doubt exasperatedly confirm (sorry Pip! :oops: ) my own coding skills lie somewhere between you and your (rather smart!) dog... Probably, lol...

On another point... Did you see line of sight (LOS) of his whole fleet from your dead Vorpostenboot? Or from another unit that was still alive?... There's a new mod, just added to the latest update to Dieppe (v1.1), that will remove LOS from dead units... so, next time, if he kills one of your units, you're not going to see what happens next... If folks say they like it, I'll try to roll out across the GJS'44 scenarios...

Thanks again... I'll try to figure out a fix... :D
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

guardsman
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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by guardsman » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:02 pm

No my friend I did not wish to confuse, I did not see anything else from that aspect of the scenario. It became obvious in later turns that portions of his force must have passed the location of my sunken ships.


Did not mean to confuse.

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:31 pm

Ah! Ok, thanks Guardsman... Forgive me teaching a professional how to suck eggs, but tip for next time: Put your 152mm coastal guns in bunkers with line of sight over the ocean. Then sneak some infantry up the beach to spot for your 152mm's... Any DD Sherman daft enough to open fire is going to be toasted by your response fire... And sitting safely in a bunker, you're pretty immune to most things...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

Ranger
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Re: DD Shermans... Separating Myth from Truth

Post by Ranger » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:05 pm

GottaLove88s wrote:Thanks guys, Cor! A guardsman and a ranger fighting in unison?! What chance has a poor Donald Duck got??!!

The tank's record was a mixture of success and failure, although they are mainly remembered for their disastrous performance on Omaha Beach.

Utah Beach

On Utah Beach, Twenty-seven out of twenty eight reached the beach

Omaha Beach

At Omaha Beach almost all of the tanks launched offshore were lost, 29 DDs into the sea, but 27 of these sank, the remaining two made the long swim to the beach.
Thanks for catching my mix beach mix-up...

GottaLove88s wrote: 15] The crews were equipped with DSEA emergency breathing apparatus capable of lasting 5 minutes, the tanks were also equipped with inflatable rafts. Some sources claim that these life-saving measures were ineffective;[16] this was contradicted by the testimony of survivors.
I hazzard a guess that the tankers who died in their DDs would strongly disagree with and resent the contradictory testimony of the survivors. :wink:

Cheers,

Thomas

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:22 pm

There are some fascinating documentaries on what happened to the DDs at Omaha... A desperately unlucky and ultimately lethal combination of much rougher ocean than expected, launched too far out, cross current, and targeting a church steeple in that cross current that gradually put Omaha's tankers side on into dangerous waves... Which is why DDs spectacularly failed on Omaha and astonishingly succeeded everywhere else... Not bad for their first action in anger... But, you're right. We shouldn't sully the memory of any brave men or women who died in the Normandy campaign through ridiculous orders, unhelpful colleagues, experimental equipment or tactics, ferocious enemies, bad luck, or any combination of the above...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

guardsman
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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by guardsman » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:42 am

He tried it again against an emplaced 88 he he he!

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:47 am

guardsman wrote:He tried it again against an emplaced 88 he he he!
Haha! Coastal guns or 88s in bunkers just can't get enough tasty DD's... Gotta love 88s...right?! ;-)
Nicely gone, G... He sure won't try it on a third time, lol...
:mrgreen:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by protectivedaddy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:02 pm

Thought I'd add to this, I position most of my armour units along the southern beach where the 2 nazis boards are placed, with the intention that if one get hit by coastal guns I have several others to remove his boats with, and has guardsman stated it was wonderful to watch as he had positioned his coastal guns further north as in our previous encounters in generalised my forces to invade along the northern beach.

A master stroke but I agree with guardsman although it proved to be a perfect beginning - the first move of our campaign it was a tad unrealistic, but having said that it didn't help much with the remainder of my campaign as the southern beach is all but impenetratable if defences are positioned correctly.

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by guardsman » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:19 pm

Hi guys,


Me again still having a bit of a tussle on sword beach, remember the DD battleships, well I have noticed something else a little strange.
I assume each tile is ment to represent about 50yards down each side.
That the British and Canadian Mortar squads are using 3" mortars.
Now I may well be corrected here about the depth of water off Sword Beach, however I have visited the location twice. But about 200 metres off the surf line would be pretty deep.
Having served her majesty and handled some pretty Gucci stuff I never saw mortars with that capability.
You have Sussed it. That's where at least one mortar is placed. I had a sergeant once who would go berserk about moisture down a tube. He would have a fit if they were about 30' down.

I do hope you don't think I am being picky....

Any tips to get past that Coastal Artillery I know what to do in reality......but HELP!

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by GottaLove88s » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:37 pm

Hey Guardsman,

No worries. I like Picky! It helps to improve scenarios... Thanks for the feedback...

Here's how to deal with water vs no water... When you run your cursor over a square, it should tell you what type of square it is and its cover rating, eg. water 0%, open ground 30%, building 63%, etc... If BA thinks it's water, then you can't put land units there, but if BA does think it's open ground, you can... If you can attach a screenshot, I'll try to improve what 'land' looks like, so your mortars don't look like they're swimming... but this could be a BA issue...

Dealing with coastal guns is easy when you know how... You have 3 destroyers. Use 'em... Deploy them slightly further back, somewhere safe. Then fire smokey mortar fire from the 1st destroyer. Then do the same with the 2nd and 3rd, to create a single solid line of smoke... Coastal guns cannot fire through that, even in reaction during your turn... Then, remember that coastal guns can only target you if they can see you. Find out where the enemy has spotters, either up on the cliffs or on the beach somewhere... Once you've got your smoke wall up, blitz him!!... You have numerical advantage, and on Sword, the German defenders are stretched pretty thin...

Good luck! ;-)

PS. If others would like me to remove this post, please tell me and I will (it might be a spoiler for some :oops: )
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

Ranger
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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by Ranger » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:38 pm

GottaLove88s wrote:Hey Guardsman,

No worries. I like Picky! It helps to improve scenarios... Thanks for the feedback...

Here's how to deal with water vs no water... When you run your cursor over a square, it should tell you what type of square it is and its cover rating, eg. water 0%, open ground 30%, building 63%, etc... If BA thinks it's water, then you can't put land units there, but if BA does think it's open ground, you can... If you can attach a screenshot, I'll try to improve what 'land' looks like, so your mortars don't look like they're swimming... but this could be a BA issue...

Dealing with coastal guns is easy when you know how... You have 3 destroyers. Use 'em... Deploy them slightly further back, somewhere safe. Then fire smokey mortar fire from the 1st destroyer. Then do the same with the 2nd and 3rd, to create a single solid line of smoke... Coastal guns cannot fire through that, even in reaction during your turn... Then, remember that coastal guns can only target you if they can see you. Find out where the enemy has spotters, either up on the cliffs or on the beach somewhere... Once you've got your smoke wall up, blitz him!!... You have numerical advantage, and on Sword, the German defenders are stretched pretty thin...

Good luck! ;-)

PS. If others would like me to remove this post, please tell me and I will (it might be a spoiler for some :oops: )
Don't remove it. Just redact the potentially spoiler bits with "XXXXXXX" al'a "Spy Catcher".

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Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by Ranger » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:49 pm

guardsman wrote: ....
I assume each tile is ment to represent about 50yards down each side.
....
The scales, distances, and ranges in BA were something I struggled to get my head wrapped around with when I first started playing BA. According to the BA/Slitherine developers, all scales/distances/ranges in the game are abstract and do not consistently represent the same measurements etc. So depending on the unit type, physical feature, or structure, a tile could represent anywhere between 50 and 200 yards (or something) down each side. There's a couple of threads on the forum where the Slitherine/BA developers hash this out and explain the rationale etc. I think I recall reading something about reconciling long and short range weapons on maps of limited size or something.
guardsman wrote:
I had a sergeant once who would go berserk about moisture down a tube.....
And for good reason...

For the benefit of those who don't know: moisture in the mortar tube is bad news for a number of different reasons but the primary concerns would be the impact the moisture, or water, would have on the mortar's propellent charges.

Damp, moist, or wet propellent charges burn inefficiently, incompletely, or not at all. Propellent charges that burn inefficiently, incompletely, or not all, negatively impact accuracy, and/or cause the mortar round to fall short of the target (sometimes on friendlies or dangerously close to the mortar itself), and/or cause a misfired mortar round, that's armed and live, to remain stuck in the mortar tube.
WW2 era mortar propellents were much more susceptible to moisture than they are today. Also, clearing a mortar tube misfire in WW2 was very hazardous for the mortar crew (it's not much of a walk in the park today either). Also in WW2, if the crew didn't notice that the mortar round, they just dropped down the tube, had misfired and hadn't left the tube, (possible with the right combination of chaos and/or inexperience) and they dropped another round down the tube, they would have blown themselves up.

I've read WW2 historical accounts of mortar rounds being used as hand grenades (in really desperate situations). To do this, the mortar round propellent charges would be removed (not sure if the were attached to the fins like they are today), then primed (pulling "the pin"), then armed (hitting the priming cap of the mortar round that would normally be set off by striking the bottom of the mortar tube), and then thrown. Anyone using a larger than 60mm mortar round as a hand grenade was probably pretty lucky if they got to do it a second time.

And Guardsman, I wouldn't worry about being "too picky" etc. The BA developers and modders can choose to do, or not do, what they want with yours and others insight and experience. Regardless, I think it's always a good thing to help set things straight about the actual technology, tactics, and history depicted in BA. I think most of the BA developers and modders appreciate guys like you and I sharing our experience and insight to help them balance "reality" with gameplay.

Cheers,

Thomas

Ranger
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:24 am

Re: A little bit of reality please.

Post by Ranger » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:50 pm

guardsman wrote: ....
I assume each tile is ment to represent about 50yards down each side.
....
The scales, distances, and ranges in BA were something I struggled to get my head wrapped around with when I first started playing BA. According to the BA/Slitherine developers, all scales/distances/ranges in the game are abstract and do not consistently represent the same measurements etc. So depending on the unit type, physical feature, or structure, a tile could represent anywhere between 50 and 200 yards (or something) down each side. There's a couple of threads on the forum where the Slitherine/BA developers hash this out and explain the rationale etc. I think I recall reading something about reconciling long and short range weapons on maps of limited size or something.
guardsman wrote:
I had a sergeant once who would go berserk about moisture down a tube.....
And for good reason...

For the benefit of those who don't know: moisture in the mortar tube is bad news for a number of different reasons but the primary concerns would be the impact the moisture, or water, would have on the mortar's propellent charges.

Damp, moist, or wet propellent charges burn inefficiently, incompletely, or not at all. Propellent charges that burn inefficiently, incompletely, or not all, negatively impact accuracy, and/or cause the mortar round to fall short of the target (sometimes on friendlies or dangerously close to the mortar itself), and/or cause a misfired mortar round, that's armed and live, to remain stuck in the mortar tube.
WW2 era mortar propellents were much more susceptible to moisture than they are today. Also, clearing a mortar tube misfire in WW2 was very hazardous for the mortar crew (it's not much of a walk in the park today either). Also in WW2, if the crew didn't notice that the mortar round, they just dropped down the tube, had misfired and hadn't left the tube, (possible with the right combination of chaos and/or inexperience) and they dropped another round down the tube, they would have blown themselves up.

I've read WW2 historical accounts of mortar rounds being used as hand grenades (in really desperate situations). To do this, the mortar round propellent charges would be removed (not sure if the were attached to the fins like they are today), then primed (pulling "the pin"), then armed (hitting the priming cap of the mortar round that would normally be set off by striking the bottom of the mortar tube), and then thrown. Anyone using a larger than 60mm mortar round as a hand grenade was probably pretty lucky if they got to do it a second time.

And Guardsman, I wouldn't worry about being "too picky" etc. The BA developers and modders can choose to do, or not do, what they want with yours and others insight and experience. Regardless, I think it's always a good thing to help set things straight about the actual technology, tactics, and history depicted in BA. I think most of the BA developers and modders appreciate guys like you and I sharing our experience and insight to help them balance "reality" with gameplay.

Cheers,

Thomas

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