Will FoG-R Open Tournaments be possible?

Moderators: Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

Post Reply
pcelella
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:56 pm
Location: West Hartford, CT USA

Will FoG-R Open Tournaments be possible?

Post by pcelella » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:43 am

I was wondering if folks think that open tournaments for FoG-R will be competitive, or really even possible? It seems to me that even more so than Ancients, FoG-R armies in different supplements will have a difficult time having a competitive match against each other. Won't Swiss pike blocks, or 15th Century armies get annihilated by 17th Century pike and shot units? Can a Meso-American unit really fight a GNW Swedish one? Samurai against New Model Army? Etc. Not necessarily a problem as far as I'm concerned if FoG-R tournaments need to be exclusive to each book, but that would of course limit the number of people who can show up at a tournament depending on what armies they have available to them. Just wondering what thoughts people might have on this issue.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:22 pm

Have look at the reports on the Madaxeman site - it includes some out of period matchups.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

david53
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2859
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:01 pm
Location: Manchester

Post by david53 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:03 pm

This is just my impression with only eight games of FOG R played so take that on board.

Would I just like to see my 30 years army face another 30 years army of course, the game at Britcon with the German Catholic against my protestant German with only two years difference was great. Loved the feel of the game with it being historical that was another plus.

Would the same if it was out of period for me no it would'nt be as good you can of corse play because of the points makes it a level playing field.

I have played many FOG AM events with armies that never met could'nt due to age or location of course for me FOG R is better kept to one book per event, I understand also this would or could stop people only with one army such as myself from only playing the 1st book. But due to this and down to numbers I feel it might have to be open. So for me keep it in book would i play it out of book of course because i like FOG R and any chance to play is welcome.

The above is only after playing limited games out of period 2 out of 8 games and just my impression.

:)

GHGAustin
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: Austin, Texas USA
Contact:

Post by GHGAustin » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:25 pm

During play testing we only played, I think, two out of period games. In both the earlier army lost... badly.

However, two data points are hardly enough from which to make a judgment. The main problem for earlier armies is the range of arquebus versus shot.

I think our tournaments will usually be bounded by a date range, more so than a particular book. For example, we probably have tournaments for 1600 to 1650, or something like that. We'll have to give it some thought.
Rob Smith
Great Hall Games
Austin, TX
www.greathallminis.com

phlewis
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by phlewis » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:34 am

I suspect that period themed tournaments will cross books to some extent just as the FOG AM ones do. For example the Ottomans and the Polish are not in the first list book but they are both contemporaries of the armies of the Thirty Years War and fought against the participants. Gustavus Adolphus had to patch up a treaty with the Poles so he could interfere in the Thirty Years War. The Ottomans fought the Poles and supported the Hungarians in their revolt and could certainly have fought the Protestants or the Catholics in Germany. Russia fought both Poland and Sweden as I remember. I am sure there are plenty of other crossovers between books.

Pat Lewis

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Post by timmy1 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:34 am

I would think that if you are going to split by date, much as 1041AD (a certain type of Knight) in FoG:AM seems to be the date, I would expect that the cut off point for FoG:R would be when Musket armed MF start to be introduced, as I suspect that armies with just Arquebus might struggle, though I don't have hard evidence. I will look at Wars of Religion and see what the date split would be there and repost.

GHGAustin
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: Austin, Texas USA
Contact:

Post by GHGAustin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:13 pm

timmy1 wrote:...I suspect that armies with just Arquebus might struggle, though I don't have hard evidence.
That was our experience. Plus the earlier armies just lacked the quantity of shot to meet the pike and shot BGs of the later European armies.
Rob Smith
Great Hall Games
Austin, TX
www.greathallminis.com

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Post by timmy1 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:34 pm

From the published lists to date, I believe that competitions based upon time would have to be split 1494-1589 and 1590-1697/8. Obviously this may change when we see companion 2.

Scrumpy
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:27 pm
Location: NoVa

Post by Scrumpy » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:44 pm

Presumably the +2 to death rolls hampered the earlier armies just armed with non-gunpowder weapons.

GHGAustin
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: Austin, Texas USA
Contact:

Post by GHGAustin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:21 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Presumably the +2 to death rolls hampered the earlier armies just armed with non-gunpowder weapons.
Actually, when we played the Turks, the mounted Bow did quite well. The LH are trickier to use than in FOGA, with only the 6 mu move, but still effective. The cavalry in a single line was out-shooting the Imperialist horse. It was a good fight.
Rob Smith
Great Hall Games
Austin, TX
www.greathallminis.com

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Post by timmy1 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:43 am

I'd agree with Rob. The issue I believe is more trying to fight against Musket if you have Arquebus.

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Post by SirGarnet » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:50 pm

timmy1 wrote:I'd agree with Rob. The issue I believe is more trying to fight against Musket if you have Arquebus.
As it should be, particularly when there is a great disparity in numbers of shot.

However, with standard pike and shot BGs they equalize at short range (or gain an edge over Musket* or Salvo foot) in a firefight. This allows the musketeers to force the arquebusiers to advance or sustain losses, and means attacking arquebusiers can take 2 rounds of long range shooting before they can get themselves in range. The nice trick, of course, is getting opposing arquebusiers in a fix where they can't advance and must endure attrition.

bertalucci
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:43 am

Post by bertalucci » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:09 am

From limited experience but across a fair range of armies (some invented whilst awaiting lists)
LoA v LoA, Cossck v Hungarians, ECW Covananter v Caroline
I have found that historical match ups result in close battles.
Outside of this you can put up a fight but early armies with limited/no shot foot do get blown away and unless lucky in combats elsewhere will eventually collapse - and it does not take long to get there.

Musket (any) vs Arquebus it's a timing thing - when you get an advantage take it.

Trying out exotics next week

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Post by SirGarnet » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:39 am

I think in FOGR bad is relatively not as bad as it has been under some other rules, or in FOGAM. There are more base losses from shooting, and this means both sides more easily get beaten up. This means the weaker army or weaker player will likely break some of the winner's BGs.

You'll see a tight fight between early 16th C Swiss and 17th C pike and musket in one of Madaxeman's battle reports. With the keil rules the Swiss work nicely.

Even average Impact foot warriors, with or without missile foot aid, can beat pike and shot straight up at least part of the time. Screen them coming in, use width for overlaps. some 3rd rank for losses, and rear support - all important.

Trying my improvised lists, Elephants are unsurprisingly nasty against Western Horse, and a huge help to archers, shot, and friendly cavalry against them. Swarming horse archers are vulnerable to gunfire, but standard pike and shot formations are not very nimble.

There are easier armies, and easier sides to matchups, but with good players on each side it will be a good game unless fortune greatly favors one side and I wouldn't worry too much about that - particularly if at least the first round matchups are appropriate.

Post Reply

Return to “Tournaments ”