Poles what's the point?

Moderators: Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

Post Reply
nickdives
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am

Poles what's the point?

Post by nickdives » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:06 pm

Just had a bit of a fight, 800 points of Poles vs 800 points of 1628 Swedes. Poles got thrashed, bad die and and actually the good old Hussars are no better than any of the Swedish Cavalry in Impact and worse in melee, Polish Infantry no match for the Swedes , perhaps the best solution is to use maximum amounts of German Inf and leave the Hussars at home! I suppose the Swedes are based on the later period after GA had learned his lessons.

Better luck against the Muscovites!

marty
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Location: Sydney

Post by marty » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:27 am

Arent the Hussars Impact horse and as a result up at impact against most of the Swedish cav (who are impact pistol)?

Martin

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Post by SirGarnet » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:32 am

Did you use the tail-end of the earlier Vasa the list, Swedish TYW list that starts a couple of years later?

My impression is that by 1628 the Swedish brigade and salvo were part of the mix, making the Swedish foot more fearsome to opposing infantry. Hussar Impact Mounted has the POA advantage in Impact over Impact Pistol Horse, and Swordsmen works out well IF the enemy is disrupted by Impact or shooting.

In 2 FOGR Swedes vs. Poles battles (vs. mostly non-Salvo Swedes in a hypothetical transitional army) my experience is that this is a good match so long as the Poles don't play to Swedish strengths.

I regret taking the Finns as Unarmoured - the Armoured POA In Melee would have made a great difference in terms of winning rather than hanging on before losing.

BlackPrince
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:34 pm

Post by BlackPrince » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:36 am

Swedish foot being superior with salvo should beat the Polish German Mercenary foot. I have played a couple scratch matches with my Imperial Spanish against the Poles. I think the Poles should take LH with carbine and operate them in pairs of four to shoot up the Swedish horse then charge with the Hussars once the Swedes have lost some bases.
Keith

It was better to leave disputing about the faith to the theologians and just run argumentative non-believers through with the sword (Louis IX).

nickdives
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am

Post by nickdives » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:45 am

We appear to have missed the impact Horse vs Impact Pistol bit, how mad! However it is still a very difficult match with a mainly horse army vs later Swedes, with the cost of the hussars we managed to field 3 units of hussars (+1 fake), 3 of pancerni, one of Tartars, 2 lt guns and one of Haiduks. They faced about 9 Swedish Bdes and 6 Cavalry units + guns and Dragoons! One of the Hussars units can be cancelled out as they will probably face the hackapals, so effectively the Poles have a very small mounted force and will generally be up against protected foot and cavalry.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:18 am

marty wrote:Arent the Hussars Impact horse and as a result up at impact against most of the Swedish cav (who are impact pistol)?

Martin

Yes, up at Impact and if the Swedes fail to remain steady the hussars will also be up in melee. Commanded shot can help the Swedes though.
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Post by SirGarnet » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:47 am

nickdives wrote:We appear to have missed the impact Horse vs Impact Pistol bit, how mad! However it is still a very difficult match with a mainly horse army vs later Swedes, with the cost of the hussars we managed to field 3 units of hussars (+1 fake), 3 of pancerni, one of Tartars, 2 lt guns and one of Haiduks. They faced about 9 Swedish Bdes and 6 Cavalry units + guns and Dragoons! One of the Hussars units can be cancelled out as they will probably face the hackapals, so effectively the Poles have a very small mounted force and will generally be up against protected foot and cavalry.
That's not even points. That sounds like about 600 points of Poles before commanders vs (counting all but the minimum one Swedish Brigades the stripped down 54 point version, minimum commanded shot, and minimum Reg Guns) about 600 points of Swedes and before commanders and not counting any points for those mounted BGs.

At 800 points with good leadership there should be about a dozen Swedish BGs. Given their Salvo ++ on contact, Swedes are scarier for enemy foot when Superior since shooting is much less likely to disrupt or stop their advance before contact.

Spreading out to counter your mounted with pike and shot is a viable strategy, the problem being gaps between BGs and your opportunity to use more mobile mounted firepower to concentrate shooting. Poles should have more Haiduks for firepower, terrain, and possibly bait. The Lancer charges need to be prepared.

The Poles are a much harder army to handle deftly. The Swedish infantry is almost fire and forget against opponents with infantry battle lines, though Support and flanks need to be managed.

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:54 pm

They faced about 9 Swedish Bdes and 6 Cavalry units + guns and Dragoons
How many points did you play ?

nickdives
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am

Post by nickdives » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:44 pm

800, the Swedes had 19 units vs the Poles 9

bahdahbum
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:40 pm

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:09 pm

Unless you used the Vasa swedish , I really wonder how you got so many units

SirGarnet
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:13 am

Post by SirGarnet » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:14 pm

9 Swedish brigades with minimum RGuns are a minimum of 552 points, leaving an unrealistic 248 points for cavalry, guns, and commanders, though if they had only 5 Swedish brigades meeting minima and the other 4 foot were Avg commanded shot it would only be only 382, which would allow 800 with a mix of good and cheap horse if they had decent commanders.

nickdives
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am

Post by nickdives » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:16 pm

Yes, I think that I may have to sneak a look at his army list!

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Post by timmy1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:25 pm

At Britcon the 1632 Swedes got ripped apart by the Hussars most of the time. You can get rolled over by his foot but you use the Pancerni to shoot the the flanks of the Swedish foot and charge them flank on - even the threat can stop him moving the salvo too far forwards. Use the LH to delay the foot advance.

nickdives
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:56 am

Post by nickdives » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:30 pm

Timmy, that would work problem being it was pretty well a big long lineof Swedes with no flanks!

david53
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2859
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:01 pm
Location: Manchester

Post by david53 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:45 pm

timmy1 wrote:At Britcon the 1632 Swedes got ripped apart by the Hussars most of the time. You can get rolled over by his foot but you use the Pancerni to shoot the the flanks of the Swedish foot and charge them flank on - even the threat can stop him moving the salvo too far forwards. Use the LH to delay the foot advance.
I would try using heavy artillery to force the enemy on to your Swedish foot, cover your flanks with walled fields or anything to mess up enemy foot and use your commanded shot to help your Cavalry face enemy shot.

timmy1
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Lieutenant-General - Nashorn
Posts: 3436
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, England

Post by timmy1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:06 pm

Difficult on Steppe!

david53
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2859
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:01 pm
Location: Manchester

Post by david53 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:17 pm

timmy1 wrote:Difficult on Steppe!
It certainly is those dammed LH joking aside I think that could be an issue what with lots of Pike and shot around. It might make events based on an east west split more apealing just a thought.

Post Reply

Return to “Army Design”