Early Imperial Spanish in Open Tourney?

[NickW]

Having not played a lot of FOG-R I'm just wondering how these 16thC types go in open tourneys (hopeless in DBR is my starting reference)? I'd like to play Early Imperial Spanish because to me early tercios define this period and seem like a lot of fun. I've played arquebus types against muskets before and they didn't do as badly as I expected, and up close I suspect the superior ETs will do quite well, but I don't really know how the whole thing would fit together against a range of opponents, particularly those of the 17thC. I don't mind if they're not really good, just if they will be hopelessly outmatched.

[kevinj]

Armies based around Early Tercios are fine in an appropriate themed tournament but are likely to be outclassed by more advanced Western Armies in Open. Even if you start with enough Pike to be 4 deep, the chances are that you will have lost enough by the time you make contact (ETs are great artillery targets) to lose any combat advantage there. You are likely to be overlapped and outshot by musket armed troops and you're only likely to get one shot off at French or Swede Impact/Salvo foot before they charge you.

[ravenflight]

I can't really comment too much because I don't really know your army, but I think it would be a reasonably interesting fight against MY army. I'd have the 'ooh, juicy infantry target' option or the 'I've got to soften up his mounted' option for my artillery. I'd be worried about your mounted 'doing me in' but I'd be fairly confident that my foot would hold their own or win. So, it would be a race to see who wins .

I know you're at CanCon - I'll be running Louis XIV - no point in hiding it - I've been discussing the army ad nauseum on the forum

[moncholee]

ET armies can work if the army is tailored to fight against the expected high number of 17th century armies of an open tourney.

If you want to use a Spanish army with ETs I would recommend Caroline Imperialist, because you don´t have to field men at arms, saving points otherwise used in an expensive and outclassed troop type. Anyway, either if you use Caroline or Early Imperial here are some suggestions:

1- Have a Great Commander. You will have to endure heavy enemy fire and your troops must reach arquebus and charge range as steady as possible.
2- Use two BGs of eight stands of superior arquebusiers. These are your game winners IMHO. Artillery hits them on 5´s and check morale when receiving three hits, not two. Once they are in range their fire is devastating and can fight in melee as good as a LT or P&S unit. Try to have them together to maximize their fire. And they can go into rough or difficult going. They have to be protected from enemy mounted, so have your own mounted, a keil or a ET near or between them (altough ETs work better on the flanks of the rest of the infantry).
3- ETs should deploy on the flanks of the infantry to give protection against enemy mounted. Make them 8 pike and 6 shoot if you emphasize charge or 6 pike and 8 shoot if you prefer fire. 8 and 8 is better but expensive.
4- Deploy your heavy mounted (men at arms, celadas, reiters) among the infantry or very close to the ETs if deployed on the wings. ETs proximity is their haven. If deployed among infantry wait until the enemy is disrupted to charge, and intercept salvo or impact foot charges (so negating their impact POAS). Use to pursue and get deep between enemy lines. They can also be used to give rear support to your arquebusiers. Try not to fight enemy mounted with yours if possible. Have them heavily armoured to have a melee POA if they have to fight enemy mounted, as the enemy will usually just be armoured.
5- Deploy light horse on the wings to slow enemy mounted. Preferably in BGs of 6 stands so they can last much longer.
6- Have at least one BG of light infantry and try to block or even charge enemy artillery. Enemy will have to react to the threat and, with luck, they won´t fire as often against your ETs.

It is not easy but it can be done!

[david53]

Armies based around Early Tercios are fine in an appropriate themed tournament

I agree with Kevin FOG R IMO works much better if its played in theme

It will work in open events but it gives a better game if date based.

regards

[NickW]

ET armies can work if the army is tailored to fight against the expected high number of 17th century armies of an open tourney.

If you want to use a Spanish army with ETs I would recommend Caroline Imperialist, because you don´t have to field men at arms, saving points otherwise used in an expensive and outclassed troop type. Anyway, either if you use Caroline or Early Imperial here are some suggestions:

1- Have a Great Commander. You will have to endure heavy enemy fire and your troops must reach arquebus and charge range as steady as possible.
2- Use two BGs of eight stands of superior arquebusiers. These are your game winners IMHO. Artillery hits them on 5´s and check morale when receiving three hits, not two. Once they are in range their fire is devastating and can fight in melee as good as a LT or P&S unit. Try to have them together to maximize their fire. And they can go into rough or difficult going. They have to be protected from enemy mounted, so have your own mounted, a keil or a ET near or between them (altough ETs work better on the flanks of the rest of the infantry).
3- ETs should deploy on the flanks of the infantry to give protection against enemy mounted. Make them 8 pike and 6 shoot if you emphasize charge or 6 pike and 8 shoot if you prefer fire. 8 and 8 is better but expensive.
4- Deploy your heavy mounted (men at arms, celadas, reiters) among the infantry or very close to the ETs if deployed on the wings. ETs proximity is their haven. If deployed among infantry wait until the enemy is disrupted to charge, and intercept salvo or impact foot charges (so negating their impact POAS). Use to pursue and get deep between enemy lines. They can also be used to give rear support to your arquebusiers. Try not to fight enemy mounted with yours if possible. Have them heavily armoured to have a melee POA if they have to fight enemy mounted, as the enemy will usually just be armoured.
5- Deploy light horse on the wings to slow enemy mounted. Preferably in BGs of 6 stands so they can last much longer.
6- Have at least one BG of light infantry and try to block or even charge enemy artillery. Enemy will have to react to the threat and, with luck, they won´t fire as often against your ETs.

It is not easy but it can be done!

Awesome, thanks for the comments - I'll have a look at these ideas.

[moncholee]

Don´t forget to tell us how the army fared

[NickW]

So in an 11 army field, where 10 armies were in the period 1630-1700 and located in Western Europe/Britain, the Early Imperial Spanish of 1559 managed third!

It was actually surprisingly competitive, with the two groups of superior arquebusiers the key. They were flanked by an early tercio and a landsknechts keil, with mounted in reserve.

Early on I struggled to use the ET well, and it was shot to pieces, but eventually I managed to get the hang of it, and it was pretty serviceable in the end. The keil did surprisingly well. The firepower of the arquebusiers was awesome and they fought pretty well too. The whole army surprised a lot of people with its firepower.

In future I wouldn't run the Great Commander. The foot battle groups are so large they rarely took tests and the occasional one for the arquebusiers should be passed given they are superior, supported and with a troop commander. So instead I would take 4 TCs as you need to put the generals in combat to give you an edge, especially against the various impact troops.

Because it looked cool I took mercenary reiters and it was fun shooting 4 dice on a 2-base frontage. They blew away a Pk/Sh BG in one game and gave decent support to the arquebusiers. But they're pretty expensive and probably not effective enough. So instead I would not take them next time, replacing them with more superior musket skirmishers and possibly a BG of 6 average arquebusier skirmishers (or bulk LH BGs up to 6). I found the skirmishers, assisted by LH, were quite good at dealing with the ubiquitous dragoons.

The other thing I would try to find points for is to take 8 pike in the ET - I only took 6, but the extra +1 for 4 ranks of pike (which the keil had because of the hvy wpns guys) was very handy. Another option could be to change from 1 ET into 2 LT (possibly superior and elite).

Thanks again for the advice on the structure/doctrine - it made all the difference.

[moncholee]

Congratulations for your success! I am glad that my advice helped you do so well.

You may be right about not using a Great Commander, it certainly seems less necessary with such big battle groups around.

Regards.