Making Poles work.

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madlemmey
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Making Poles work.

Post by madlemmey » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:27 pm

Okay, know Winged Hussars have issues, but, I am determined to make Polish and Lituanian Commonwealth work. (Either list)...
Options:
A) Solid infantry core with nice hard hitting cavalry support.
3) cavalry heavy LH/cavalry/det horse mix.
ii) All arms extravaganza
My dream list rocks in at 1200+ points! :shock:
My main issue is in unlikely to face 'historical/in theatre' opponents, how do I take on pike a and shot foot/superior pistol pistol horse?

timmy1
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by timmy1 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:14 pm

Get the authors to fix Impact Mounted DH... (e.g. second rank contribute 1 dice per base in impact) so they can fight with a chance of winning the Impact and be in a deeper formation. Limit that to Poles and you give them a chance.

ravenflight
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by ravenflight » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:06 am

timmy1 wrote:Get the authors to fix Impact Mounted DH... (e.g. second rank contribute 1 dice per base in impact) so they can fight with a chance of winning the Impact and be in a deeper formation. Limit that to Poles and you give them a chance.
The authors aren't willing to make changes to the capture/uncontrolled artillery rules (which the current rules are almost without a defender), so I don't think they are going to make any changes to the DH rules.

We're stuck with them as they are - or you do house rules I guess.

madlemmey
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by madlemmey » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:36 am

Thanks chaps.
Should have mentioned that I'm not looking for rules rewrites, I just want this army to work (and, yes, I specialise in writing Dog lists)! ;)

quackstheking
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by quackstheking » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:09 pm

You'll just have to live with it as a "Dog with Wings"! (used to be called Linda M<cCartney - sick old joke!). :oops:

Don

madlemmey
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by madlemmey » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:44 pm

Oh well, guess it will be my usual war'band on the run'!

*dives into Wings back catalogue for other puns*

timmy1
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by timmy1 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:34 pm

I think we will have to Mull of Kintyre that over..

madlemmey
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by madlemmey » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:28 pm

Might have to re-Jet that idea!

nigelemsen
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by nigelemsen » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:40 pm

Excuse me..... Writing and playing Dog Lists is my mantel.... Get your Own niche.... Like winning with dog lists... :)
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timmy1
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by timmy1 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:58 am

Nifel

With your record I think that the other players do not feel that you need be restricted to playing Dog Lists...

nigelemsen
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by nigelemsen » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:04 am

timmy1 wrote:Nifel

With your record I think that the other players do not feel that you need be restricted to playing Dog Lists...
Do you mind I resemble that remark :)
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RonanTheLibrarian
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by RonanTheLibrarian » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:50 am

Isn't the secret to making Poles work getting them a visa and a job in construction?
"No plan survives the first contact with the dice."

"There is something wrong with our bloody dice today!"

Schnockel
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by Schnockel » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:43 am

Why do you think Polish Hussars are so terrible? They get an advantage in the impact, and an advantage in causing a, perhaps, bigger cohesion loss? Basically, they should win the impact and, if they don't, the guys tough (or lucky) enough to stop them deserve a victory.

If you gave the Hussars the advantage you want the authors to change, would ANYBODY be able to defeat them? What fun would that be?

I guess I don't understand the problem. :?:

Jhykronos
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by Jhykronos » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:15 am

Schnockel wrote:Why do you think Polish Hussars are so terrible? They get an advantage in the impact, and an advantage in causing a, perhaps, bigger cohesion loss? Basically, they should win the impact and, if they don't, the guys tough (or lucky) enough to stop them deserve a victory.
The aren't terrible, just terribly overpriced for two reasons:

1. They're determined horse. In an attritional game like FOG-R, if you are going to be paying 75% over your cost for a troop classification, you had better get something amazing for it. Instead they get something situationally useful.
2. They are paying 2 points more than impact pistol for the impact mounted capability and are saddled with the barely useful swordsman capability. Certainly they win at impact more often, but the other guy still has to fail the cohesion test, and he's almost certainly going to be facing them with superior horse of his own, including generals and rear support, so the chances of failing the cohesion test are often less than 50%. So for argument's sake, let's say they win impact 2/3 of the time, and the other guy fails cohesion 1/2 the time (and this is a very generous overstatement for both scenarios). That leaves the hussars in a good spot 1/3 of the time. 2/3 of the time, all the following melee phases are going to have the odds working in exactly the opposite direction. That's one impact phase where they MUST break the other player's cohesion, verses an unlimited number of melee phases where the Hussars keep taking punches, depending on if they can break off. And it's worse against heavily armored cuirass, who cut through them like tissue in melee.

And that's not even taking into account what the other guy gets to do with the points he saved buying cheaper, more generally useful cavalry.
If you gave the Hussars the advantage you want the authors to change, would ANYBODY be able to defeat them? What fun would that be?
I guess I don't understand the problem. :?:
No, most people aren't asking for a rule change* in terms of interactions on the table, they are asking for troops to be priced according to their actual utility. This makes more armies competitively feasible and makes for a more interesting game. Or maybe it lets the Polish players sneak in another unit of Hussars to look pretty and perform underwhelmingly.

* Well, the 2 POA thing is annoying and a bit tough to justify, but I'm not asking for it to be changed.
Hussars

nigelemsen
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by nigelemsen » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:17 am

In normal comp play I think hussars are going to unlikely to have an effect at impact because usually they are fighting superiors plus general. So unless they through around 4-5 it is unlikely to get a drop. Which means in melee they are going to be down.... My Cossack cav plus general (superior, armoured, carbine/-/pistol) managed to hold/survived the impact and then ground down the hussars on 4s vs 5s...

My suggestion fix would be. Keep the pts the same, but change the sword to pistol for melee. Then it's not a single roll lottery where the opponents have to drop or "I'm" likely to be broken in the end.
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Schnockel
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by Schnockel » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:58 am

I still don't see the problem. One thing you forget is that the Poles will almost certainly cause a casualty in the impact. The opponent will get maybe a 50-50 chance at it. The Poles will almost certainly win the impact causing, usually, a severe and difficult cohesion test. That's a lot of advantage. And the cuirassier? If they survive they'll be a problem, but there aren't any determined cuirassier that I have seen...so you'll need twice as many cuirassier to hit the Poles...which costs lots more than the Polish Hussars.

Yes, with bad rolls it's tough on the Poles...but that is true of any army or game.

nigelemsen
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by nigelemsen » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:35 am

Schnockel wrote:I still don't see the problem. One thing you forget is that the Poles will almost certainly cause a casualty in the impact. The opponent will get maybe a 50-50 chance at it. The Poles will almost certainly win the impact causing, usually, a severe and difficult cohesion test. That's a lot of advantage. And the cuirassier? If they survive they'll be a problem, but there aren't any determined cuirassier that I have seen...so you'll need twice as many cuirassier to hit the Poles...which costs lots more than the Polish Hussars.

Yes, with bad rolls it's tough on the Poles...but that is true of any army or game.
I'm not sure the chance of causing an effective cohesion test is as likely as you suggest. In my experience, the opponents mounted are usually superior with a general, often fighting in the front rank and some times with rear support. Factor in te superior reroll , I have found both when playing against and wth hussars, they don't get the critical disruption marker going down at impact. The next round usually becomes ,superior, armoured, pistol, general front rank (so 4s needed rerolling 1s and 2s) vs superior, armoured. (5s needing 5s rerolling 1s, unless your brave and throw in a general).

So the expensive points are for a single throw at impact, that you must win to survive long term.....
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ravenflight
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:29 am

Schnockel wrote:I still don't see the problem.
Well, the 'problem' is that probably the single most popular army in historical wargaming doesn't get much light of day because the rules make them not cost-effective.

Yeah, there are a few Polish armies out there, but they are hardly a dominant.

If they were anywhere near reasonable, the sheer popularity of the winged hussars would give them a lot more air time. As it is, the only people who play with them are people who like the army more than winning.

Schnockel
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by Schnockel » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:47 am

There are very few armies that could field forces that could easily stand against the Polish Hussars, but they do exist. And their opponents can cost somewhat less. The more I look at this, the more I think the angst against the cost is appropriate. They should probably be costed to no more than 21 points, and maybe as low as 19, instead of 23.

Take the Early Transylvanian Boyars, for instance. 21 points, Heavy Lancers so they get a + against the Poles in Impact, then Heavily Armoured so they get a plus in the melee. The later Hungarian/Transylvanians are almost as good with Armoured superior light lancers with pistols. They tie the Poles in the Impact and get + advantage in the melee...for only 19 pts.

I've been rolling the Poles vs several kinds of opponents, and it changed my mind as to the Polish Hussars cost.

abivor
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Re: Making Poles work.

Post by abivor » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:13 pm

I am painting the Poles now and I'm looking forward to using them.
Sadly I don't expect to meet most of their historical opponents in their greatest victories - Early Russian, Early Vasa Swedish and so on - except possibly various Ottoman armies. I have tried against an Early Ottoman and won a famous and hard fought victory.
Reading about the Poles historical tactics suggests that despite popular belief in the power of the hussar charge it was best to soften up the target first. Support from shooting Cossacks for example.
As for those famous victories - well Early Russian Boyars do look a tad tempting to a fiery Hussar, as does Early Vasa Swedish cavalry. By time you get to Gustavus Adolphus the Swedes are harder work - as they are in FoG. Ottomans remain vulnerable. West European armies pose more of a problem, so the Polish Sjem was very wise to keep out of the 30 Years War!

As for changes....well pistol rather than sword would be more reasonable, at least for the later list. Again reading about the army shows that popular belief emphasises the two swords, especially the long one. However it seems to be intended for what we would know as the impact phase as a substitute for a broken lance rather than the melee.

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