Scenario critique

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design, Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

MickMannock
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:09 am

Scenario critique

Post by MickMannock » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:21 pm

I've played PC a lot the past weeks since it was released. I haven't played through all maps yet, but most of them. I like the game and the maps, almost all of them are very well done.

One map stands out in a negative way though and that is the Normandy map. It is severely unbalanced and also very ahistorical.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say everything has to play out exactly like history (that would be boring) but the British taking Caen on turn 1 and the Americans doing a break out on turn 2 (basically unhindered) just blows my mind. There has to be more German aux ground units close to the coast.

Though better yet would be to do it like they did in PG, having one map for the invasion and another map for the break out (Operation Cobra). I think that would make the playing of Operation Overlord and Cobra much more interesting.

I understand the defensive maps weren't prioritized but the Normandy map needs a serious overhaul in my opinion.

Vaughn
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:29 pm

Post by Vaughn » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:48 pm

I have not played Normandy yet, but according to PC there is nothing but plains and clear ground in between the US East Coast and The Rockies. I really don't like the US maps.

Thank goodness this game is very easily tweakable and it is not too hard to create my own. I wil have a lot of fun doing that.

HBalck
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:28 pm
Location: Augsburg / Bavaria / Germany...but I am from Eastern Germany !

Post by HBalck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:51 pm

Wait for my Big map Normandy - than you can play with hunderts of correct historical units - and beliebe me , you can not take Caen in the first 20 rounds !

H.Balck

bobk
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:26 pm

Post by bobk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:12 pm

Mick,

What level are you playing at? I haven`t tried that map, but anything lower than the third level, and the maps seem very sparse...The AI is still being tweeked also.

HBalck, after looking at some of your other offerings from the Cold War mod thread, I am really excited that your are working on this game!

HBalck
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:28 pm
Location: Augsburg / Bavaria / Germany...but I am from Eastern Germany !

Post by HBalck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:20 pm

HBalck, after looking at some of your other offerings from the Cold War mod thread, I am really excited that your are working on this game!
Why ??

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7251
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:32 pm

Vaughn wrote:I have not played Normandy yet, but according to PC there is nothing but plains and clear ground in between the US East Coast and The Rockies. I really don't like the US maps.
You do know they are called 'The Great Plains' right? :)
I've driven across the Continental United States. Flat plains as far as the eye can see for hours on end. ;)
Not to mention it's meant to be a large scale armored battle. Rough terrain would be detrimental to the intent of the scenario.

Although out of curiosity, what alternative would you recommend for USA Mid West?


As for Normandy though, I do agree with the critiques.

Xerkis
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Northeast, USA

Post by Xerkis » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:45 pm

Kerensky wrote:
Vaughn wrote:I have not played Normandy yet, but according to PC there is nothing but plains and clear ground in between the US East Coast and The Rockies. I really don't like the US maps.
You do know they are called 'The Great Plains' right? :)
I've driven across the Continental United States. Flat plains as far as the eye can see for hours on end. ;)
Not to mention it's meant to be a large scale armored battle. Rough terrain would be detrimental to the intent of the scenario.

Although out of curiosity, what alternative would you recommend for USA Mid West?
Yep, basically all flat and then the Rockies. Easy to see why Denver is where it is… settlers with their wagons pulled up to those mountains – took one look and said “unhitch the horses, this is as far as we go.”
:lol:

East coast could use a bit more trees and mountains / hills. You don’t need to go too far from the big cities and that’s all you have in places.

West coast looks about right. I try not to go there too much. Been to California twice and both time I was in the middle of an earthquake.
:o

AgentX
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Post by AgentX » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:08 am

Xerkis wrote:West coast looks about right. I try not to go there too much. Been to California twice and both time I was in the middle of an earthquake.
:o
Well, being a native Californian, I'll have to disagree with you about the map. The San Francisco Bay Area looks nothing like the real thing. Here are two pictures to show you. First from the game and one an actual photo. The Southern part of the Bay looks OK, but the North and the Eastern portions look really off. The Golden Gate Bridge also looks like it ends on the wrong hex; it's supposed to go from peninsula to peninsula. Speaking of which, some of the maps have icons (like the Eiffel Tower in France). Would be cool if you could make a real nice bridge hex to simulate the GG Bridge. In addition, San Diego is curiously missing from the map. Especially weird since San Diego is far more a military town than Los Angeles. The US Navy has a huge presence and the Camp Pendleton Marine Base is massive.

Image

Image
Last edited by AgentX on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Panzer Corps Beta Tester

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7251
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:22 am

As detailed as that map is, you would do better to consider this map. This is the one the scenario is based on.
Image

For a map that covers an area from Denver to the Pacific, details such as a proper Bay Area simply won't fit.

As for San Diego, adding that city and the surrounding area would require stretching the map Southwards more, it actually doesn't fit geographically in the current map.

AgentX
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Post by AgentX » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:32 am

This is true Kerensky, but it still looks funky to me being that I grew up and still live in the area. No biggie, I know creative license was taken and it concentrates more on the larger picture. I was just pointing out to Xerkis that I didn't think the Bay Area was accurate. I'm not going to mark the game down for it. :lol: Still would like to see a proper Golden Gate Bridge, though. There are other icons on other maps and it would be a cool one to have for the West Coast map.
Panzer Corps Beta Tester

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7251
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:54 am

I can look at my window and see the Golden Gate Bridge. The decision to make the map as you see are based on geography, but strongly influence by game play mechanics. The entire Los Angeles area is a fortress, and the San Francisco Bay creates some nice choke points, starting East of San Jose and going up the Peninsula from there.

USA aside, I would like to hear some more comments about Normandy, as the OP started the topic with that. :)

Wings
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:18 am

Post by Wings » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:37 am

AgentX wrote:
Xerkis wrote:West coast looks about right. I try not to go there too much. Been to California twice and both time I was in the middle of an earthquake.
:o
Well, being a native Californian, I'll have to disagree with you about the map. The San Francisco Bay Area looks nothing like the real thing.
First of all. people who have never been to California, let alone the USA, have a better understanding of the area by just looking at Google maps than a Californian who doesn't have a map. :P

Secondly, this is pretty accurate considering the current tile set, game mechanics and the limited amount of tiles, unless you can create a better 10x10 map with the current tile set....which you can't.

So Xerkis is totally right when you consider the limitations and that's the point he was trying to make.

AgentX
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Post by AgentX » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:49 am

Wings wrote: Secondly, this is pretty accurate considering the current tile set, game mechanics and the limited amount of tiles, unless you can create a better 10x10 map with the current tile set....which you can't.
Not to belabor the point, but I do believe it could be better. I really don't know how to use the editor well, but I was able to whip this up with the available tile set. You have to admit that it looks much more like the Bay Area than the what the current West Coast map has. Sorry, Kerensky, about hijacking the thread, but I had to show that a better representation was possible.

Image

Image
Panzer Corps Beta Tester

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7251
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:39 am

While I appreciate the effort, your map and example are, once again, on the wrong scale.

Pad image in the editor. The 'Bay Area' is not that large.
By that image, San Francisco and San Jose should be adjacent to one another, but you can already see I've 'stretched' them apart.
Image
The surrounding area is now also being affected.
That Northern Victory Hex you see there is Sacramento. Sacramento is 1 hex away from The Bay Area? No. I've already pushed Sacramento north a considerable distance already. Your increased sized Bay will require pushing Sacramento even further away, further disrupting an already very stretched interpretation of geography.
Your larger 'bay area' is actually starting to reach Chico and is a mere 2 hexes away from Redding!!!
Image
How the entire map, not just your zoomed in crop, will now appear. Is that the Bay Area, or the crater of the meteor that killed all the Dinosaurs? ;)
Image

Vaughn
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:29 pm

Post by Vaughn » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:58 am

You nailed everything from Kansas City to Denver perfect.

But if I were designing the map, I would have had a little more variety of terrain elsewhere. More hills and trees in the East. More swamps/marshes in the South. The current maps are pretty much missing the Adirondacks, the Appellations and the Ozarks (big hills). I have not played with the editor yet, so I'm not sure if rough or desert tiles are available or active yet, but if they are, I would use more of that in the West.

I really enjoy most of the maps. It is just the 3 US ones that I would tweak when the time presents itself. Just a little something to break the geography up and encourage more of a combined arms approach.

On the other hand, those three maps are a wonderful Panzer playground.

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7251
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:01 am

To help you further understand scale:

The Great Salt Lake covers an area roughly 1,700 square miles in size.
In game, it is represented by four hexes.

San Francisco Bay, at absolute maximum inclusion of surrounding water ways (San Pablo Bay, Suisun Bay) covers 1,600 square miles.
In game, by your example, San Francisco Bay is nine hexes.

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7251
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:09 am

Vaughn wrote:You nailed everything from Kansas City to Denver perfect.

But if I were designing the map, I would have had a little more variety of terrain elsewhere. More hills and trees in the East. More swamps/marshes in the South. The current maps are pretty much missing the Adirondacks, the Appellations and the Ozarks (big hills). I have not played with the editor yet, so I'm not sure if rough or desert tiles are available or active yet, but if they are, I would use more of that in the West.

I really enjoy most of the maps. It is just the 3 US ones that I would tweak when the time presents itself. Just a little something to break the geography up and encourage more of a combined arms approach.

On the other hand, those three maps are a wonderful Panzer playground.
Nevada and Arizona, to my knowledge, contain lots of deserts. We don't have desert tiles yet (Can't have Afrika without desert tiles you know ;))
So are there tweaks that need to be applied to perfect these maps? Absolutely. That what user feedback and patches are for. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The release of Panzer Corps isn't the end of development, it is only the beginning! :D

Xerkis
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Northeast, USA

Post by Xerkis » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:07 am

Wings wrote:
AgentX wrote:
Xerkis wrote:West coast looks about right. I try not to go there too much. Been to California twice and both time I was in the middle of an earthquake.
:o
Well, being a native Californian, I'll have to disagree with you about the map. The San Francisco Bay Area looks nothing like the real thing.
First of all. people who have never been to California, let alone the USA, have a better understanding of the area by just looking at Google maps than a Californian who doesn't have a map. :P

Secondly, this is pretty accurate considering the current tile set, game mechanics and the limited amount of tiles, unless you can create a better 10x10 map with the current tile set....which you can't.

So Xerkis is totally right when you consider the limitations and that's the point he was trying to make.
Thanks for your vote of confidence.
I thought that me saying I have only been there twice and the term “about right” would have been enough to basically decline my opinion on that side of the country

....... Plus honestly, I just used that line as a way to interject my unbelievable odds on being in earthquakes.
:lol:

Fritz
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:53 am

Re: Scenario critique

Post by Fritz » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:45 pm

MickMannock wrote: Don't get me wrong, I don't say everything has to play out exactly like history (that would be boring) but the British taking Caen on turn 1 and the Americans doing a break out on turn 2 (basically unhindered) just blows my mind. There has to be more German aux ground units close to the coast.
Thats true.
Watch the Band of Brothers Series to see what hard fighting has been there.

I guess the few units are a programming trick. If the core units would start all at or near the beach, the invasion would fail in a few rounds. Since you could block the exit points and finish off the units before they can attack. :D

MickMannock
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:09 am

Re: Scenario critique

Post by MickMannock » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:18 pm

Fritz wrote:
MickMannock wrote: Don't get me wrong, I don't say everything has to play out exactly like history (that would be boring) but the British taking Caen on turn 1 and the Americans doing a break out on turn 2 (basically unhindered) just blows my mind. There has to be more German aux ground units close to the coast.
Thats true.
Watch the Band of Brothers Series to see what hard fighting has been there.

I guess the few units are a programming trick. If the core units would start all at or near the beach, the invasion would fail in a few rounds. Since you could block the exit points and finish off the units before they can attack. :D
Uhm...and that is why I wrote there needs to be more German aux units close to the beaches. It's in the part you quoted.

The core units are fine where they are.

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”