Proposal: Make AA, AT, and recon units count as 1/2 a unit

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monkspider
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Proposal: Make AA, AT, and recon units count as 1/2 a unit

Post by monkspider » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:05 pm

Currently, I find it difficult to justify using one of the core unit slots on units in the anti-air, anti-tank, and recon classes. It is unfortunate, because these units typically provide a lot of punch for the price, but I usually have more prestige than I do unit slots. If these units only counted as 1/2 a unit, it would make for some more interesting decisions: do I take two anti-tank guns or one panzer iv? Two anti-airs or one fighter? Perhaps some of the more powerful units like jagdpanthers and the like could still count as a full unit. I am playing on the medium difficulty, so on higher difficulties where prestige is more scarce, they might be more valuable. But at least on the default setting, I find little reason to use them.

Many thanks to Slitherine for making such an outstanding game! This is perhaps the most addictive game I have played in years. :)

bobk
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Post by bobk » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:07 pm

At levels below the third one I had tons of prestige, at higher levels you will be spending more on replacements. As you progress in the campaign you can add more core units, then decide which ones to use at the beginning of your battle. If you are just playing single player, I guess you could go into the editor and make the changes yourself, enjoy!

Fritz
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Post by Fritz » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:09 pm

I guess this would imbalance the game. Since on the last scenarios you can deploy 40+ units.

Razz1
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AT and AA patch

Post by Razz1 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:14 pm

Just go hear and load the AT and AA patch

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884644

Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:31 pm

I think you have little need for these classes of units because the campaign structure generally does not promote their use.
How can you be expected to use a poorly mobile anti-tank gun when you're primarily on the offensive, racing across entire countries while fighting a clock?
Same goes for a air defense gun?

We're working on solutions that should give these units more prominence, but I do agree that in the late scenarios where you have 30 or even 40 core slots, any unit using 1/2 a slot can be problematic. Especially recon cars, who are notably very cheap.

AgentX
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Post by AgentX » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:13 pm

Kerensky wrote:I think you have little need for these classes of units because the campaign structure generally does not promote their use.
How can you be expected to use a poorly mobile anti-tank gun when you're primarily on the offensive, racing across entire countries while fighting a clock?
Same goes for a air defense gun?

We're working on solutions that should give these units more prominence, but I do agree that in the late scenarios where you have 30 or even 40 core slots, any unit using 1/2 a slot can be problematic. Especially recon cars, who are notably very cheap.
I thought a good solution would be to let towed AT and AA deploy after moving in their transports, if they haven't used their fire action (substituting firing with a deploy after movement option). So, that way those type units would be more valuable and useful on an offensive blitzkrieg giving defensive support instead of being stuck in transports during the AI's counter attacks. If it causes balancing problems for MP, it could be used only in SP campaigns and scenarios.

About recons, wasn't their a discussion about having 2 classes of them? One that would focus on recon with a 4 spotting range and another class that would have better attacking values, but have a 3 spotting range. That would make the recon units more valuable.
Panzer Corps Beta Tester

Razz1
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Post by Razz1 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:02 pm

Well... good players use recon units, but they can be improved. I was the one who recommended having some lower echelon units have 4 range.

It's a matter of coding in old software to fix the AT's as you want. And who know's if they can do it...?

soldier
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Post by soldier » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:37 pm

I had one SPAT and one SP flak unit, along with 2 recon cars in my core force and found them quite useful. Also had an 88 for while as well till it got destroyed in the states. I found the AT useful as i could upgrade it to a jagdtiger or some other heavy blocking unit and the AA is essential for guarding vunerable transports or arty in risky sectors so i could free up my fighters. Personally i think a balanced force is a better force but i may have been just as successful buying all tanks.
I do think towed AT and AA needs a fair drop in price to be a more attractive option in MP games. AT was dirt cheap in PG and i saw a lot of it being bought to try to block or slow down armor offensives. Panzer Corps is at the other extreme where almost no one buys it.

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Post by Fimconte » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:46 am

soldier wrote:I had one SPAT and one SP flak unit, along with 2 recon cars in my core force and found them quite useful. Also had an 88 for while as well till it got destroyed in the states. I found the AT useful as i could upgrade it to a jagdtiger or some other heavy blocking unit and the AA is essential for guarding vunerable transports or arty in risky sectors so i could free up my fighters. Personally i think a balanced force is a better force but i may have been just as successful buying all tanks.
In the campaign, especially at higher difficulty I think you're better off ignoring AT/AA, while Jagdtiger is excellent, Tiger II is more versatile thanks to a higher (9 vs 7 on Jagd) Soft Damage and double (8 vs 4) the ammunition capacity, and 18 (43 vs 25) more fuel.
Tiger II also comes with a higher Close Defense (6 vs 2).

The main issue is that by the early self-propelled AT units are in my opinion inferior to tanks because they are almost useless vs Infantry.
Also there's no upgrade path to keep the costs down.
Consider that you get access to Panzer IVD in Low Countries. They will last you until Stalingrad with minimal upgrade investment.
Panzerjäger IB upgrades to nothing and Marder IIB doesn't become available until Sealion 42' or Stalingrad, later to Marder III or JagdTiger/Panther.

As for Recon, I find 1-2 units indispensable depending on the map. Unless you're willing to "cheat" by reloading if you run into a ambush obviously.
Intelligence is vital for a successful campaign.
soldier wrote: I do think towed AT and AA needs a fair drop in price to be a more attractive option in MP games. AT was dirt cheap in PG and i saw a lot of it being bought to try to block or slow down armor offensives. Panzer Corps is at the other extreme where almost no one buys it.
I agree, in multiplayer AT would be more useful in defensive positions, if it were cheaper. Or perhaps towed AT should be cheaper and self-propelled left at it's current price.

MartyWard
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Post by MartyWard » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:49 pm

I like Recon units but in the late game they just die to fast.
Perhaps some of the later models can be given a much higher armour defense to simulate their small size and maneuverability not necessarily their armour. At least they could survive a chance encounter or two.

monkspider
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Post by monkspider » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:41 pm

AgentX wrote:
Kerensky wrote:
I thought a good solution would be to let towed AT and AA deploy after moving in their transports, if they haven't used their fire action (substituting firing with a deploy after movement option). So, that way those type units would be more valuable and useful on an offensive blitzkrieg giving defensive support instead of being stuck in transports during the AI's counter attacks. If it causes balancing problems for MP, it could be used only in SP campaigns and scenarios.

That is a REALLY good suggestion. Another good one I saw in certain Panzer General 2 mods is to give towed anti-tank guns a range of 2 on firing. AA could maybe have wider range too, or maybe be able to fire twice in a turn or something?

impar
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Post by impar » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:49 pm

MartyWard wrote:Perhaps some of the later models can be given a much higher armour defense to simulate their small size and maneuverability not necessarily their armour. At least they could survive a chance encounter or two.
Or add a recon ability that allows for less damage taken at the expense of a retreat.
Say now a 10-strength recon unit would be atacked and would lose 6-strength and stay in the same hex. With the abilty it would take 3-strengh casualty but would retreat to another hex. If surrounded it would surrender.

bobk
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Post by bobk » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:50 pm

What if the recon unit had the evade trait like a sub?
I would like to see that in the modern mod also, for a unit like Speznatz.

Fritz
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Post by Fritz » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:15 pm

bobk wrote:What if the recon unit had the evade trait like a sub? ...
Good idea. I second it.

TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:34 pm

Fritz wrote:
bobk wrote:What if the recon unit had the evade trait like a sub? ...
Good idea. I second it.
Then everyone would buy them to defend objective hexes instead of going out to find the enemy :wink:

How about something to do with FOW? For example, they can only be spotted at one hex by "normal units", two hexes by other recon?

shinyhalo
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Re: Proposal: Make AA, AT, and recon units count as 1/2 a u

Post by shinyhalo » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:32 pm

monkspider wrote:Currently, I find it difficult to justify using one of the core unit slots on units in the anti-air, anti-tank, and recon classes. It is unfortunate, because these units typically provide a lot of punch for the price, but I usually have more prestige than I do unit slots. If these units only counted as 1/2 a unit, it would make for some more interesting decisions: do I take two anti-tank guns or one panzer iv? Two anti-airs or one fighter? Perhaps some of the more powerful units like jagdpanthers and the like could still count as a full unit. I am playing on the medium difficulty, so on higher difficulties where prestige is more scarce, they might be more valuable. But at least on the default setting, I find little reason to use them.

Many thanks to Slitherine for making such an outstanding game! This is perhaps the most addictive game I have played in years. :)
Ya, I don't have any AA or AT in my force either.
I'd like it if AA had an infinite number of "counter attacks against attacking aircraft" per round. Is this possible with an editor or something?

jaldaen
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Post by jaldaen » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:19 pm

Thinking about this a bit more... one possible way to encourage the use of AA, AT, and Recon might be to grant bonuses to adjacent units.

For example, an infantry unit next to a deployed AA would receive a bonus to their Air Defense. An infantry unit next to an AT unit would receive a bonus to Ground and/or Close Defense when attacked by hard targets. An infantry unit next to a Recon unit would gain a bonus to Initiative.

In this way these "support" units would actually play a unique role in the game by actually providing support to adjacent units.

Best Wishes,
Joseph

TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:01 pm

jaldaen wrote:Thinking about this a bit more... one possible way to encourage the use of AA, AT, and Recon might be to grant bonuses to adjacent units.

For example, an infantry unit next to a deployed AA would receive a bonus to their Air Defense. An infantry unit next to an AT unit would receive a bonus to Ground and/or Close Defense when attacked by hard targets. An infantry unit next to a Recon unit would gain a bonus to Initiative.

In this way these "support" units would actually play a unique role in the game by actually providing support to adjacent units.

Best Wishes,
Joseph
That is an interestting idea, but likly would require a complete retool of the game, all units stats would have to be adjusted etc... Hmm, would be cool to tinker with though if additional unit classes could be opened up in the editable data files for providing support fire...hhmmm

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