Getting rid of the undo function

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ruskicanuk
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Getting rid of the undo function

Post by ruskicanuk » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:54 am

Can I propose something for the 1st patch?

Especially for multi-player, please add the ability to turn off the "undo" command. Maybe it can stay if no FOG is revealed by the move. This would prevent cheat scouting and generally improve the quality of an incredibly amazing game.

Thanks!

TheGrayMouser
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Re: Getting rid of the undo function

Post by TheGrayMouser » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:05 am

ruskicanuk wrote:Can I propose something for the 1st patch?

Especially for multi-player, please add the ability to turn off the "undo" command. Maybe it can stay if no FOG is revealed by the move. This would prevent cheat scouting and generally improve the quality of an incredibly amazing game.

Thanks!
Thats not the problem as undo is disabled if you reveal something, the problem is move undo move undo etc when you reveal nothing, thus the "discovery" of where there is nothing which is as least as valuable, and IMHO is basically cheating. Yeah they should just prevent undo completely in MP.

El_Condoro
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Post by El_Condoro » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:18 am

+1. This was raised in the beta, too.

asrn
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Post by asrn » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:37 am

I have an alternate suggestion.

Allow nothing (even other units) to be discovered until the user 'commits' to the move. (I.e. The user learns 'where' he would be able to move IF there were no units - and as soon as he commits, he learns he can't go all that way because he 'would' have encountered the unit(s) in his way.)
ASRN

Razz1
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Post by Razz1 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:12 am

That's an extra click for every move.

Way too cumbersome.

asrn
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Post by asrn » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:19 am

Razz1 wrote:That's an extra click for every move.
Way too cumbersome.
Razz1, "Do the math."
1. Player are already doing multiple clicks to 'scout' out areas that are empty, so there are already 'multiple' clicks.
2. Players are doing extra clicks to 'undo' those extra moves they are already doing.

Net result, either:
1. No change, same number of clicks to play the game.
2. Fewer clicks since there is no reason to 'scout' since you will learn 'nothing.'
ASRN

rezaf
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Post by rezaf » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:39 am

The most favorable option would be the ability to simply turn this off in game options.
If somebody decides to make heavy use of this in single player - why stop him?
In multiplayer, I have to agree it's a different matter, because now you're essentially handicapping yourself if you don't use this semi-cheat.

Btw., I admit I have used this a couple of times in single player, albeit only very rarely.
_____
rezaf

ruskicanuk
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Post by ruskicanuk » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:44 am

I like this suggestion. I'd be fine with either that or an option to remove undo - whatever the designers prefer.
asrn wrote:
Razz1 wrote:That's an extra click for every move.
Way too cumbersome.
Razz1, "Do the math."
1. Player are already doing multiple clicks to 'scout' out areas that are empty, so there are already 'multiple' clicks.
2. Players are doing extra clicks to 'undo' those extra moves they are already doing.

Net result, either:
1. No change, same number of clicks to play the game.
2. Fewer clicks since there is no reason to 'scout' since you will learn 'nothing.'

Fimconte
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Post by Fimconte » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:08 am

Razz1 wrote:That's an extra click for every move.

Way too cumbersome.
That's how Air-Units work already though?
Image
Image


Edit: Or well I guess that's a different functionality.
Still can't be too hard to simply stop units from revealing other units unless you a) commit the turn or b) run into someone (ie. a Ambush occurs).

El_Condoro
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Post by El_Condoro » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:15 am

There are other ways but I think a simple click option at the start of an MP game, along with the difficulty level, FoW etc, would be the easiest. That way guys who would like to use undo can and others can choose to not use it.

AgentX
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Post by AgentX » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:24 am

Fimconte wrote:That's how Air-Units work already though?

Still can't be too hard to simply stop units from revealing other units unless you a) commit the turn or b) run into someone (ie. a Ambush occurs).
I thought much the same thing. Ground units have much less of a chance of an ambush than air units since they stop when moving next to enemy units (especially when using the "move/undo scouting" method). Air units either run into something, causing an "unexpected encounter" or have to stop to reveal everything within their spotting range (even if they come up next enemy air unit).
Last edited by AgentX on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:30 am

The reason air units behave this way is because they have no zone of control. ZOC is what causes a unit moving next to a previously unseen unit to be forced to stop.

AgentX
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Post by AgentX » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:38 am

Kerensky wrote:The reason air units behave this way is because they have no zone of control. ZOC is what causes a unit moving next to a previously unseen unit to be forced to stop.
Ah, that makes sense. That's why hidden naval units can also have that same effect: zone of control.
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rezaf
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Post by rezaf » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:35 am

Kerensky wrote:The reason air units behave this way is because they have no zone of control. ZOC is what causes a unit moving next to a previously unseen unit to be forced to stop.
But that's not the entire truth - air units only discover what's on ground under their destination when they end their move.
Compared with their laughtable spotting range, this makes them ironically worse spotters than a ground unit using the "undo-dancing" pattern described above.

I maintain that air units should again behave like they did in PG (or was it PG2?) in that they reveal everything underneath their flight path.

There's now too many situations in which airplanes are useless, and spotting is only one of them.
In the average scenario, it's often best to hold back the planes for a turn or two at first until the enemy planes have been spotted, because otherwise you'd run the risk of being ganged upon by the often siginificant amounts of enemy fighters.
Then your fighters get a few turns of glory while they deal with the enemy aircraft.
Once that's done, your fighters can basically head to the next airfield and take a nap - unlike allied fighters, which for some reason often inflict considerable losses even on german tanks, german fighters are useless against ground targets most of the time.
Since there's now almost always flak in important cities, your tacbombers are also damned to sit tight most of the time, unless you find the odd isolated target or are willing to constantly waste prestige reinforcing them for one-shot attacks that are seldom worth it, given their nerfed state in the first place.
I've seen other people use StratBombers to successfully reduce enemy supplies to a level where this becomes useful, but personally, I still consider them pretty much a waste unless there are naval units around.

To sum up, giving aircraft proper scouting abilities would at least give them stuff to do while they'd otherwise be parked on the runway.
_____
rezaf

Horseman
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Post by Horseman » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:42 am

I dunno Rezaf

I find fighters useful even once enemy air is gone...they can finish off units that have retreated to where you cant get at them with ground troops or they can reduce entrenchemnt on attack and do regualrily take a step or two off of the enemy at the same time

Tac bombers have their place...and thats not attacking well defended (by flak) targets..many a soviet armoured attack has been broken up by mine

Strat bombers I find invaluable and in the scenarios I've left them in reserve I do really miss them.....air artillery!

Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:42 am

I'm all for not allowing undo in MP games, but just wanted to bring up an idea someone brought up in a different thread.
In MP games limit the number of undo allowed in a game. No idea what that number might be 10, 50, 100? This way if you truly made a mistake, you can still undo.

But if not a limit on it, then no undo in MP would be most acceptable. I have quite games (no matter if I was winning or losing) if I find the undo scouting practice being used.

Also (since spotting of planes has been thrown in here) I too think they should spot on their flight path as well. Don’t see much of a reason why their shouldn’t be able too.

Molve
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Post by Molve » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:40 am

Kerensky wrote:The reason air units behave this way is because they have no zone of control. ZOC is what causes a unit moving next to a previously unseen unit to be forced to stop.
But this isn't true, is it?

You can still surround an enemy plane to prevent its escape.

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Post by Molve » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:41 am

Razz1 wrote:That's an extra click for every move.

Way too cumbersome.
Hi Razz!

What is your reply to the main question asked?

Xerkis
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Post by Xerkis » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:44 am

Molve wrote:
Kerensky wrote:The reason air units behave this way is because they have no zone of control. ZOC is what causes a unit moving next to a previously unseen unit to be forced to stop.
But this isn't true, is it?

You can still surround an enemy plane to prevent its escape.
I don’t think so.
I thought that you could and then it flew right through my planes. I was a bit surprised by that, but thought that well maybe he did some maneuver that you only see at air shows and evaded my squadrons.
:lol:

Longasc
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Post by Longasc » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:03 am

Slightly off topic:

I wonder how Panzer Corps would handle Panzer General style ZoC for planes.

YOUR UNITS

-A--A--A--A--A-

Enemy Airforce

(A=your airforce)

Doesn't necessarily have to be a fighter doing the blocking. ZoC works like a shield. The perfect fighter cover.
You would have to kill one of the "P" planes to pass through to the ground targets.

I managed to make enemy planes run out of fuel this way in Panzer General, cutting off their way back to the airfield. :)
I am not sure which implementation I like more. The problem is that air ZoC also showed the flaws of the Panzer General AI.
Smart use of it could make the AI attack your fighters as intended or it would often just get caught in the ZoC web and do nothing.


Back on topic:

"leap-frogging" was the term used for one by one advancement of ground units, basically eliminating the enemy chance for an ambush.
I would suggest to let the host decide if UNDO is possible and disable it by default.

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