why are half-track upgrades so expensive?

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Mercutio
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why are half-track upgrades so expensive?

Post by Mercutio » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:50 pm

Trucks are 50, halftrack 100, but a slightly better halftrack is 200??? Seems pretty steep.
I can understand paying full price to go from a truck to a halftrack, but why does a slightly better halftrack cost the full 200 as well?

Thanks

AgentX
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Re: why are half-track upgrades so expensive?

Post by AgentX » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:02 pm

Mercutio wrote:Trucks are 50, halftrack 100, but a slightly better halftrack is 200??? Seems pretty steep.
I can understand paying full price to go from a truck to a halftrack, but why does a slightly better halftrack cost the full 200 as well?

Thanks
Ya, I think you should get 100P credit for trading your old halftrack when upgrading to the better model, so the net cost is 100P. Other units, like tanks, let you upgrade within the same class for the difference in cost. I think the halftracks should be in the same class, so you don't have to pay full price when upgrading. Another thing I'd like to see is credit when disbanding your transport during the Deploy phase. If you disband any other unit, you get the Prestige back: except the transports. Sometimes, I like taking my fallschirmjagers out of their transports on certain scenarios (gebirgsjagers are another one that I sometimes like out of their transports). Both of those units have special properties when not in their transports. Problem is that it can get very expensive when you get no credit for disbanding them and, then, have to buy them back at full price for the next scenario.
Last edited by AgentX on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ruskicanuk
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Re: why are half-track upgrades so expensive?

Post by ruskicanuk » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:07 pm

I disagree - high cost half track is quite important to make the trucks a competitive option (though in campaign still getting the 8 move half track is best). Gotta keep it tough!

I love how in multiplayer trucks become the most common transport rather than a bunch of light tanks (which is what the half tracks act like)
AgentX wrote:
Mercutio wrote:Trucks are 50, halftrack 100, but a slightly better halftrack is 200??? Seems pretty steep.
I can understand paying full price to go from a truck to a halftrack, but why does a slightly better halftrack cost the full 200 as well?

Thanks
Ya, I think you should get 100P credit for trading your old halftrack when upgrading to the better model, so the net cost is 100P. Other units, like tanks, let you upgrade within the same class for the difference in cost. I think the halftracks should be in the same class, so you don't have to pay full price when upgrading. Another thing I'd like to see is credit when disbanding your transport during the Deploy phase. If you disband any other unit, you get the Prestige back: except the transports. Sometimes, I like taking my fallschirmjagers out of their transports on certain scenarios (gebirgsjagers are another one that I sometimes like out of their transports). Problem is that it can get very expensive when you get no credit for disbanding and have to buy them back at full price for the next scenario.

AgentX
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Re: why are half-track upgrades so expensive?

Post by AgentX » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:13 pm

ruskicanuk wrote:I disagree - high cost half track is quite important to make the trucks a competitive option (though in campaign still getting the 8 move half track is best). Gotta keep it tough!

I love how in multiplayer trucks become the most common transport rather than a bunch of light tanks (which is what the half tracks act like)
I didn't say anything about making the 8 movement halftrack cheaper; only that you should be able to upgrade to the better one for the difference in price. You still end up paying 200P for the better halftrack; just that you did it in two increments 100P for the 6 movement, then another 100P to get the better one. If not, the total cost to get to the best halftrack ends up being 350P (50P for the truck, then 100P to upgrade to the 6 move halftrack, and another 200P for the final one). Since you have to pay full price for the upgrades between halftracks, it ends up costing 200P more than the 6 movement halftrack for only 2 more movement. Seems too high to me.
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Mercutio
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Re: why are half-track upgrades so expensive?

Post by Mercutio » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:20 am

AgentX wrote:
ruskicanuk wrote:I disagree - high cost half track is quite important to make the trucks a competitive option (though in campaign still getting the 8 move half track is best). Gotta keep it tough!

I love how in multiplayer trucks become the most common transport rather than a bunch of light tanks (which is what the half tracks act like)
I didn't say anything about making the 8 movement halftrack cheaper; only that you should be able to upgrade to the better one for the difference in price. You still end up paying 200P for the better halftrack; just that you did it in two increments 100P for the 6 movement, then another 100P to get the better one. If not, the total cost to get to the best halftrack ends up being 350P (50P for the truck, then 100P to upgrade to the 6 move halftrack, and another 200P for the final one). Since you have to pay full price for the upgrades between halftracks, it ends up costing 200P more than the 6 movement halftrack for only 2 more movement. Seems too high to me.
Personally, I think it ought to be 150 new. If you upgrade from a truck, you pay the 150, if you upgrade from the 1st halftrack you pay 50.
At least being able to make the incremental upgrade from 100 to 200 would be an improvement though. I can't see any justification for paying the 200 as it is now.

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Post by Fimconte » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:37 am

Easily fixable in the Equipment.pzdat file.
Just find the entry for the SdKfz 251 and SdKfz 250. Then add the corresponding entry to the unit 'family' boxes (sdkfztransport for example).

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Post by Razz1 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:56 am

Half tracks are expensive because they move far, cover rough terrain better, cover bad weather better, Shoots back at AA and is not that bad in attack if your experience is high.

Perhaps there should be an upgrade path between the two Axis half tracks.

Mercutio
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Post by Mercutio » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:57 am

Razz1 wrote:Half tracks are expensive because they move far, cover rough terrain better, cover bad weather better, Shoots back at AA and is not that bad in attack if your experience is high.

Perhaps there should be an upgrade path between the two Axis half tracks.
What the heck have I been saying [facepalm]

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Post by evan748 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:13 am

Keep in mind if you give your inf the good half tracks your making a 180-220pt unit a 380-420pt unit... You will have to pay for those halftracks everytime your Inf takes damage. Early game this cost can be higher then your tanks.

I usually go with at most the 100pt halftracks for there off road ability. (and to hedge against my urge to send trucks as far as they can drive past my tanks... "nothing can see my unit there right?")

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Post by soldier » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:58 am

I think Panzer corp got it right by making halftracks more expensive but the doubling in price for last model probably outweighs its speed benefit slightly. I'd probably price it at around 175 mark

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Post by impar » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:21 pm

evan748 wrote:Keep in mind if you give your inf the good half tracks your making a 180-220pt unit a 380-420pt unit... You will have to pay for those halftracks everytime your Inf takes damage. Early game this cost can be higher then your tanks.
Yep.
In Rommel am planning on staying with the 100PP halftrack.

Longasc
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Post by Longasc » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:02 pm

Yes, the 100 Prestige Halftrack is way to go.
I often go with Trucks because 100-200 extra are not only expensive to buy BUT also make the reinforcements and especially elite reinforcements cost more.


Also, please note:

British/American/French/Soviet:
Truck: 50
Halftrack: 100

German:
Truck: 50
Halftrack: 100
Halftrack 8 movement: 200


Now one can argue: is +2 extra movement is worth the price. Also note that the SdKfz 251 ("the Hanomag"), our 100 Prestige halftrack, was way more common and produced throughout the war. The 200 Prestige SdKfz 250 funnily appears in both Panzer General and Panzer Corps when production of it began to be stopped in favor of focusing on the 251. The 250 was also not available in large numbers before 1941 due to some issues.

Maybe the high prestige cost is meant to reflect that. If you really want to have the ultra halftrack, the end all of halftrack design, you will have to pay for it.


So what, are we haggling about the price? -> 150 instead of 200 maybe?

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Post by Razz1 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:02 pm

Don'y forget the 251 has more fuel.

impar
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Post by impar » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Razz1 wrote:Don'y forget the 251 has more fuel.
Reinforcing infantry or artillery, gives fuels.
Replenishing ammo, gives fuel.

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Post by AgentX » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:20 pm

Longasc wrote:So what, are we haggling about the price? -> 150 instead of 200 maybe?
I've been saying all along that I don't think the price should go down; just that halftracks should be considered in the same family and you should be to upgrade for the difference in price. I think paying the 200P full price is a steep upgrade and actually makes the 250 halftrack cost 300P after upgrading vs only 100P for the 251. Hardly worth it and I can see why most people stay with the 251.
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Post by Molve » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:51 pm

If you do make a "halftrack family" pleas consider upping the "entrance fee".

Currently the cheap halftracks cost 100 prestige. But there's a hidden cost in that you lose all the money if/when you later upgrade. If you remove (part of) that hidden cost by making upgrades cheaper, then you should make players pay more upfront. Otherwise the halftracks (as a family) becomes too attractive compared to the truck. Perhaps:

Truck: 50
SdKfz 251/1: 140
SdKfz 250/1: 200

Essentially, you make sure the "entrance fee" to the halftrack family isn't too low. Paying 100 (just 50 more than for a truck) would be too low, if upgrades later don't mean paying full price.

That said, not using families (as in the current game) is a fine solution too. It really makes you think hard about giving all your units halftracks (instead of trucks or nothing at all), as well as whether you can afford the luxury of upgrading to better halftrack models. It might not make the most sense (given that PzIVs are one big family) but it works from a game balance perspective.

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Post by El_Condoro » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:56 pm

Another option is to remove the 250 as a transport option and put it in the recon group, which is where I think it suits more historically.
From the font of all knowledge, Wikipedia wrote: The basic troop carrier version was used as an armored personnel carrier for reconnaissance units, carrying scout sections.
Several special-purpose variants were seen early in the war. The 250/3 and 250/5 were command variants, equipped with fewer seats but with long-range radio equipment.
That would leave the player with none, Opel or 251 half-track as land transport option and another recon option.

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Post by ffl310 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:39 am

El Condoro is right. 250 should be on recon.
251 for troops and a new class for artillery with sdkfz 7.
The last one could be expensive.

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Post by El_Condoro » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:50 am

A new Sdkfz 7 HT would go hand-in-hand with the other needed transport type - horse. That would give players towing options of none (not very realistic but possible given the way PzC handles towed AT/AA/ART), horse (cheapest and most numerous as per history), Opel, Sdkfz 7.

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Post by ffl310 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:00 am

Most numerous for sure. How many hexes for horses ?
:-)

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