Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

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Chris10
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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by Chris10 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:09 pm

VPaulus wrote:Chris and everyone else, let's take politics away from this thread. I know it's impossible sometimes to avoid it, because we're all "political animals" and some subjects only make sense under its light.
But we're here in a forum, in a section about Panzer Corps... this is really a hot topic and I can see where this can lead into.
So no more political statements please. I mean it.
errr..yeah...true...edited out :D

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by MrsWargamer » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:13 pm

Actually Chris mentioned books and it has actually been the case that libraries have long been the embarassing hole in the argument of alot of copy write arguments for a long time.

Right now I can go to the local library and 'borrow' without a cost to myself a video or a song as well as just ordinary printed media. I know the library likely has a variety of obligations it has to meet in order to exist at all and function as it does. But how is a library different in the legal sense of the word from a torrent site?

I have never paid anything to Pirate Bay, and I suppose Pirate Bay COULD be made to operate in a fashion similar to other portions of the tech world. In Canada, blank media is taxed in a fashion to offset the 'losses' from piracy. As a result, in some cases, anti piracy measures in Canada would be regarded similar to what Chris was referring to in Spain where the country has elected to take their own direction in response to a need.

I personally for instance, find the message always seen at the opening of most films, from the FBI, to be utterly meaningless, as the FBI has virtually no authority outside of the sovereign territory of the USA. Granted, some nations tend to either sell out their own legals rights from strong arm tactics of other nations willingly, or they seem to act in a fashion that might indicate they couldn't care less about their own laws when it comes to threats and bullying from another nation perceived as being stronger.

I have for instance been watching the patent argument ongoing between Apple and Samsumg, which it appears was NOT a victory inside of Japan where they see the argument differently.

Sometimes law is only for the side with the muscle. I am still willing to crap on EA's name for their actions in connection to making Slitherine chance Battlefield Academy to Battle Academy. All on the basis that EA thinks gamers are retards unable to distinguish the difference in two games.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by IainMcNeil » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:44 am

There is no problem with passing a book/physical copy of something on once you are done with it. However you can't expect tech support on a handed on game as you wouldn't try to take a 2nd hand book back to the shop and return it or complain about some other aspect of it.

This is all completely different to passing on a digital copy of something which never expires, wears out and can be in multiple places at one time. People need to get their head around the differences between physical and digital items before the discussion can really get anywhere.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by impar » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:36 am

IainMcNeil wrote:People need to get their head around the differences between physical and digital items before the discussion can really get anywhere.
You saw hte Bruce Willis - iTunes news?
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/09/02/ ... gs-rights/

Correction:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=27576
Last edited by impar on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by Mark50 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:18 am

IainMcNeil wrote:There is no problem with passing a book/physical copy of something on once you are done with it.
This is all completely different to passing on a digital copy of something which never expires, wears out and can be in multiple places at one time.
You do realize that Steam and such aside, games traditionally(for many years anyway) tend to come on a disc of some sort(CD, DVD etc.) and that playing the game requires the disc to be inserted into the drive, right? If you`re bored with the game and give it to a friend, what you hand over is the physical disc and that means that while he will be able to play it, you won`t be able to anymore because you lose possession of the disc. There`s no difference between borrowing/giving that and another object(like a mug) in this instance. By simple logic I mean. The life of the game is basically the life of the disc. It is not eternal. I don`t know why you go around this as if it didn`t exist and concentrate purely on games that are sold/delivered directly to the drive and are not dependent on the disc. Plus, the argument with "never expires" is annoying to say the least. How many games of 20 years ago can you still play on today`s PCs and operating systems? At the rate innovations in PC hardware and software are done in certain periods, games tend to no longer work(well) on newer systems at even shorter periods. Basically, either via the way of getting the disc damaged or the way of the game stopping to be compatible to future systems, the games do expire at some point and are not played anymore. Much like other objects that deteriorate through use and are then discarded and replaced. You must be the most ethical game maker ever if you were sincerely horrified about the possibility of having to port the game to all operating systems that will appear up to the end of PC series. :D
However you can't expect tech support on a handed on game as you wouldn't try to take a 2nd hand book back to the shop and return it or complain about some other aspect of it.
Tech support and returning the product are two different things. Obviously! Objects are returned to the seller which in the case of a second hand game is not you. Still, if the game you`ve released is faulty, then you ought to release patches and support in this regard should be available to anyone owning the game legally(during a certain period of support anyway).

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by IainMcNeil » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:22 pm

The vast vast majority of tech support is related to a users PC (drivers, hardware conflicts, connection issues etc), not the game code itself. Bug feedback almost exclusively comes via the forums and not via tech support and we are one of if not the best at releasing bug free games and fixing any issues that are found after release.

Old games not working on new systems kind of reinforces the point - it becomes tech supports problem to sort it out.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by Mark50 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:51 pm

Old games not working on new systems kind of reinforces the point - it becomes tech supports problem to sort it out.
To be honest, I do not know the length to which you go to support your older games. Hats off if you go back and add patches for old games so that they are compatible with newer drivers etc. It`s something that I haven`t experienced in other places.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by Chris10 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Mark50 wrote:
IainMcNeil wrote:
Old games not working on new systems kind of reinforces the point - it becomes tech supports problem to sort it out.
To be honest, I do not know the length to which you go to support your older games. Hats off if you go back and add patches for old games so that they are compatible with newer drivers etc. It`s something that I haven`t experienced in other places.
This is a moot point to big extend as after 10-12+ years there is little you can do to make very old games compatible with new systems.
Ever tried to run a DOS game on Win7 without emulator ?...
Same goes for all games using 8 or 16bit colors or similar architecture...new graphic card drivers simply do not support this crap anymore hence can not display it and no way patching it without re-writing an emulator for the entire game or re-writing part of the engine... :P
nobody does that

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by doomtrader » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:17 am

Chris,
actually GOG.com is selling a lot of this crap, and indeed some of them can be launched in the game's native resolution, but still technically there is nothing to complain about.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by MrsWargamer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:04 pm

Mark50 wrote:
IainMcNeil wrote:There is no problem with passing a book/physical copy of something on once you are done with it.
This is all completely different to passing on a digital copy of something which never expires, wears out and can be in multiple places at one time.
You do realize that Steam and such aside, games traditionally(for many years anyway) tend to come on a disc of some sort(CD, DVD etc.) and that playing the game requires the disc to be inserted into the drive, right? If you`re bored with the game and give it to a friend, what you hand over is the physical disc and that means that while he will be able to play it, you won`t be able to anymore because you lose possession of the disc. There`s no difference between borrowing/giving that and another object(like a mug) in this instance. By simple logic I mean. The life of the game is basically the life of the disc. It is not eternal. I don`t know why you go around this as if it didn`t exist and concentrate purely on games that are sold/delivered directly to the drive and are not dependent on the disc. Plus, the argument with "never expires" is annoying to say the least. How many games of 20 years ago can you still play on today`s PCs and operating systems? At the rate innovations in PC hardware and software are done in certain periods, games tend to no longer work(well) on newer systems at even shorter periods. Basically, either via the way of getting the disc damaged or the way of the game stopping to be compatible to future systems, the games do expire at some point and are not played anymore. Much like other objects that deteriorate through use and are then discarded and replaced. You must be the most ethical game maker ever if you were sincerely horrified about the possibility of having to port the game to all operating systems that will appear up to the end of PC series. :D
However you can't expect tech support on a handed on game as you wouldn't try to take a 2nd hand book back to the shop and return it or complain about some other aspect of it.
Tech support and returning the product are two different things. Obviously! Objects are returned to the seller which in the case of a second hand game is not you. Still, if the game you`ve released is faulty, then you ought to release patches and support in this regard should be available to anyone owning the game legally(during a certain period of support anyway).
This is going to sound horrendously unfriendly, but that is not my wish, so appologies in advance if I offend.

But, in regards to the whole disc related portion of the above.

I likely wouldn't consider an opponent much of a challenge, if they actually thought disc in drive was even a relevant topic worthy of comment.

Fact, disc in drive is ONLY for the massively uninformed. No one that knows ANYTHING useful about the internet actually plays disc in drive type games with the actual disc in the actual drive. If you are still doing it, chances are you are simply not going to be clever enough to be much of an opponent in a wargame.

Fact, it is likely best considered a 'beginner' level of DRM breaking challenge to ditch a disc in drive requirement. Some will just mention NoCD cracks for this, but you can go when step better and not rely on some stranger's probably questionable code and just use a disc emulator program. I do NOT play ANY of my expensive wargames sold only as disc in drive products in an actual disc. And the advantage, is so many wargames are just plain small programs. Thus, you can store all of your quite legally bought disc in drive requiring wargames on a dvd as disc images, and leave the actual game disc in the actual game box on your shelf where it can please your eyes if that suits you. I simply will not be risking damaging my one only legit discs in drives nor do I have any desire to wear out the disc drives. Not to mention a laptop running a disc drive is sucking out the power if your are not plugged in to a power source.

That any company stil uses disc in drive is idiotic, and yet I know of one popular maker of wargames that still does. I think they have gone to digital download recently though (have not been to their site in a while).

Fact, you will get a lot of sales with a digital download (such as like with Slitherine and Matrix Games just from impulse if not for the reason I prefer it. No fuss and no hassle. Those buying 10 dollar hard copy versions of digitally sold products are either lazy, or just plain massively unskilled. There is no collectible worth in a game just because the company sent you a dvd case with a selected jacket and a disc with a company selected disc image and a brief manual (if there is a manual at all). They are worth nothing. Ok they are worth at best 20 cents for the case, 25 cents to colour copy the jacket and 20 cents for the disc. Or in other words, you paid 10 bucks to get something worth barely more than a pay phone call. The people buying these things won't be getting a lot of respect from me if they wish to claim being smarter than me.

Steam is an efficient option, even if it is not the best more desirable option.

But here is another fact.

Game life span. How many games have you played since 1990?
How many are actually still worth it to you, REALLY worth it to you?
How many were wargames?

We regularly buy games play them like hell and then move on. Thus, needing a physical copy of something you won't be returning to in a few months is something of a pointless argument.

Steel Panthers, man I wish I could play that PROPERLY in an OS of today without need of a geekskill. But in all honesty, it's the only game in more than 20 years I could care about from more than 5 years ago. It's thus constantly frustrating no one has gotten off their butt and just re invented that damned wheel. Yes yes yes I know, don't own the code blah blah blah. So who cares, I don't expect someone to miraculously ressurect THAT program, it's time has come and gone. Make a NEW game, make it look JUST like Steel Panthers, just don't call it Steel Panthers. Don't try to outright clone the game to the last detail, but, at least stay true to the idea of the game.

I do NOT want %#^$*&% Steel Panthers *&&^%$*&^ 3d. I don't want it in **&)^%$%$ real time. It better have WW2 tanks and squads all the usual supporting stuff, hexes, and reams of scenarios potential from the mod community and include all the nations initially that mattered and be playable on any square inch of realestate that was fought on in WW2. Germans Japanese Italians Poles, Low Countries, Scandinavia, British, Americans French All the colonies of the British of course. I'd be ok with a Panzer Corps approach ie maybe not everything on the day one launch, but plenty before the game is a year old.

But the thing is, I don't require old games to be infinitely able to run on newer and newer machines, because I don't expect 9 out of 10 games to last as worth my time for longer than a year at any rate. The average OS is lucky to be still wanted after 5 years. You'd have to be incredibly lucky to have a game anyone reeeeeeally needs after putting it on sale 5 years back.

The only reason I talk about most games, is some became yard sticks. I don't really play Steel Panthers any more. Too much hassle. But, it will likely be a loooooong time before anyone raises that bar any higher.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by impar » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:57 am


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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by Chris10 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:44 pm

This is very interesting topic as it touches various different subjects which are somehow related to each other....
DSWargamer wrote: And the advantage, is so many wargames are just plain small programs. Thus, you can store all of your quite legally bought disc in drive requiring wargames on a dvd as disc images, and leave the actual game disc in the actual game box on your shelf where it can please your eyes if that suits you. I simply will not be risking damaging my one only legit discs in drives nor do I have any desire to wear out the disc drives. Not to mention a laptop running a disc drive is sucking out the power if your are not plugged in to a power source.
size doenst matter anyway anymore as even laptops come with 500GB+ HDs nowadays and we all have various reasons for having/wanting physical copys and its of nobodys buisness to dismiss one or another reason why somebody would like it this way or that way..I think we agree on this :)
DSWargamer wrote: Those buying 10 dollar hard copy versions of digitally sold products are either lazy, or just plain massively unskilled.
It seems you try to completely turn around logic... :P
I rather think those who are sitting on their butt instead of walking/driving their ass over to a store are the lazy ones...those who go to the shop browsing thru the things are certainly not lazy but even more enthusiastic than the others..just sayin :D
I for instance only buy hard copys in a physical shop but never submit to DRM measures like steam or online activation, being online or whatever...nor I ever play with my hard copy.
Only game I ever bought as digital copy was Hearts of Iron II -Arsenal of Democracy cause there was never a hard copy issued and this was Gamesgate and not Steam... 8) s...what does that make of me ?...Am I unskilled or simply lazy ? :roll:
DSWargamer wrote: There is no collectible worth in a game just because the company sent you a dvd case with a selected jacket and a disc with a company selected disc image and a brief manual (if there is a manual at all). They are worth nothing.
That is plain wrong and only depends on how good the condition is...Its much like with Comics..printed in thousands,hundreds of thousands in 30 years only a few copys survive in perfect condition and lots of them worth a lot...and I mean a LOT of money...
same with games...in perfect condition they can become extremely collectible and expensive...just cause they dont worth nothing to you doesnt mean there isnt a whole world of collectors out there who would tar and feather you for your statement
Nintendo Campus Challenge 91 [Nintendo NES]: 20.000 $
Nintendo World Championships Gold [Nintendo NES]: 18.000 $
Stadium Events [Nintendo NES] : 14.900 $
Nintendo PowerFest 94 [Super Nintendo]: 12.000 $
Ultimate 11 (Neo Geo) : 10.000 $
Uncharted 2: Fortune Hunter Edition [Playstation 3] (2009 !!!): 5000 $
just to name a few....
and just to counter any attempt to say these are not PC games here are a few PC games..but anyway..its about games in general
and the statement they would worth nothing...it all depends on condition and rareness but even older or massively sold titles in perfect condition which are hard to get can worth as much as they were new or even more...
Darius Alpha: $350 – $1400
Ginga Fukei Densetsu: Sapphire: $300-$1000
Bazaru De Gozaru No Game De Gozaru: $150 – $350
Magical Chase: $500 – $2000
The Dynastic Hero: $300 – $500
Super Air Zonk: Rockabilly Paradise: $200 – $380
Bonk 3: Bonk’s Big Adventure: $200 – $300
Soldier Blade: $80 – $180
Syd Mead’s Terraforming: $120 – $185
Dungeon Explorer II: $130 – $200
Beyond Shadowgate: $150 – $220
Might and Magic III – Isles of Terra: $125 – $225
DSWargamer wrote: But here is another fact.
Game life span. How many games have you played since 1990?
How many are actually still worth it to you, REALLY worth it to you?
How many were wargames?
Its about games and not only wargames and this is not a valid point as it is entirely personal...but again..its none of anybodys buisness to approve or dismiss on behalf of others...everybody has a personal stance on this so its not valuable as a general argument
There is a few who really worth it to me... I still play GalCiv I from 2002, Shogun I, Medival I, Paradroid and Impossible Mission for C64, FF V VI VII VIII, Panzer General, Metal Gear Solid 1-3, Wing Commander Series, Master of Orion..the list is quite long...I stop here cause I think its enough to appreciate where Iam coming from
DSWargamer wrote: We regularly buy games play them like hell and then move on. Thus, needing a physical copy of something you won't be returning to in a few months is something of a pointless argument.
agree partially on the first part but again..whats pointless for you isnt neccessarly pointless for somebody else like me who collects comics too (I have about 8000..including a close to complete x-men and iron-man,complete spectacular spider-man and other marvel series) and when I was a teenager other people said they would not worth anything and ask me what I wanted to do with all that toilet paper..today my comics are thousands and thousands of € and I laugh about these ignorants...so be careful...you never know :P

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by warhammer » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:48 pm

Stardock CEO Brad Wardell about steam: http://forums.elementalgame.com/437776

For all the shouts that “PC gaming is d0med” we’ve heard over the years, it strikes me as odd that Galactic Civilizations II, a game released 6 years ago and is almost certainly in the top 100 best sellers on Steam has done over $1 million in the past year alone on that platform. And that’s just Steam and not counting Impulse or direct or retail or anywhere else it’s available. That strikes me as a pretty healthy platform. As a developer, if I know that something that didn’t even crack the top 100 for that year can make 7 figures then that’s a good platform to target.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by MrsWargamer » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:19 pm

Collectors are all easily branded as freaks :)

I've seen every flavour of collector freak I can think of too.

Matchbox models fetch quite the sum. I built almost all of them in the day, they were fun, they were easy, and they are crap compared to today's kits. No understanding collectors.

I own most of Advanced Squad Leader, and I have no idea why some will pay what they will for some of it. Black SS counters are not really worth anything to me. I felt the original prices were often nuts. But the collectors are insane.

Comics are often rare if they are actually rare in quantity. I have no idea why people buy current ones and bag them. Come on there's thousands of them, they are not worth more than the paper they were printed on now. Same with sports cards. I used to put them in the spokes of my bike. Maybe those are rare now.

I have a friend that loves console games. I know some are very hard to find. But really, a lot of times those games are more nostalgia than worth. My Nintendo (the first one) most of the games were hit and miss. Before renting became the thing, half my games were worth nothing, but you didn't know in advance sadly. I have seen Nintendo release something like 6000+ DS titles thats SIX THOUSAND!!. I can assure you if I were to mention all the titles I have seen of use to me, I'd fizzle after 50 for all types of game. my core collection though is about 10 games that made buying the machine worth it. I'd have bought it just for Panzer Tactics.

But collectors are weird people. I see a piece of antique furniture, and I see something that needs to be disassembled, cleaned up stripped down, and refinished and rebuilt. I think most antiques are ugly firewood till they are fixed. This desk I am typing on is older than me. I likely ruined a great antique rebuilding it after my father died. But at least it is is not going to fall apart while I use it. Plus it looks better as I see it.

Old is not always better. Steam is new, and I suppose that is part of the problem.

I am a big fan of non PC wargaming (as the name likely makes obvious). I suppose my account name would be more current if I went by AndroidWargamer, but the doodads were not out in 2006. I'm used to reading wargamers defiantly demand that only a PC is suitable for wargaming, and a wargame has to look like War in the East. I think they are mainly dinosaurs and are not doing wargaming any real good. I also think playing Small General on my tablet is more fun than playing War in the East on my computer.

Steam works, but it has it's moments. I bought Civilization V on hard copy from the local store. I presumed it was the logical choice. Really, all I got out of the process was a faster install from disc. But if I lost access to Steam for any reason, my hard copy is worthless to me. Same could be said for the expansion. The same could be said for the 3 Company of Heroes titles I got on sale for a lousy dollar the other day. The Humble Bundle broke with their normal routine and offered games from bigger players. But if I lose Steam those games become worthless.

Much as I would like to support buying via Steam, but I bought my copy of Unity of Command here at Slitherine. 10 bucks was impossible to ignore. But I got a proper Slitherine installer, and if Steam were to tell me to drop dead tomorrow, I still get to play Unity of Command. I always pick the BEST method when it is an option.

Steam is not the best option, but it does a close 2nd place especially if the developer can move sheetloads of sales and make a big buck even if selling the title for what seems like an insultingly small sum. I don't have access to the details of how many units of Unity of Command have sold thanks to Steam. I can hope it has been enough to be worth it. I do know this much, most people on Steam, have no idea who Slitherine and Matrix Games are. That is sad and it sucks of course. But maybe that is changing. I don't like the iPad, but, I know Battle Academy is sold on it and it has to be getting a lot of visibility. After all, it is doing well for a game where most people think most tablet games should only cost a couple of bucks.

Life is change and those that refuse to change usually suffer a lot too. Look at the idiots in Hollywood. They refuse to join 2012 soon to be 2013. I couldn't care less if they are being robbed blind. They deserve it. They refuse to move into the real world of 2013.
I also think the best wargames are currently exploiting the newer technologies. That doesn't mean I don't think the older wargames are not good wargames. War in the East is an incredible piece of programming. But it is also incredibly tedious, and it is also mirred in technology that is getting made forgotten.

I don't need fancy graphics nor fancy graphics cards nor fancy sound cards nor a large screen (like some seem to think is a must). My TV can play anything my tablet can run. Presto, I have great graphics and sounds and considerable screen if I wish it. I can also put my tablet in my coat and take it to Tim Hortons. And a great game needs to be able to accomodate that. You can't run War in the East on a tablet, so it really isn't better at getting played than games that can.

Steam is not really unique much either any more. I am finding that Google store is becoming quite good at delivering my entertainment needs.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by Mordan » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:15 pm

Nice Post DSWargamer.

For me Steam is a distribution platform, but most and foremost it is a place where you can meet other players online.

Without a ladder system and achievements, Panzer Corps won't make it on Steam. PBEM+ is a great way to play this game but the complete lack of bells and whistles around it makes it unfriendly. Right now Panzer Corps caters to the single player crowd that likes campaign playing. Most of the steam crowd wants competitive MP play. I hope PzC II will do more for MP games, including MP campaigns!!! In that case, it will make sense to include it on Steam where there is money to be made with a good MP game.

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by warhammer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:35 am

What do you think about game bundles (strategy games in) ?

http://www.humblebundle.com/ for 1$ Company of Heroes series >Purchases #: 658,798=Total payments: $3,678,971.14 !

http://www.bundlestars.com/ (5 startegy games in)

http://www.indiegala.com/ (7 startegy games in)

http://groupees.com/bm6 ( 3 startegy games in)

18$ for 18 startegy games... What is your opinion ? Its good for players or not ?

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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by MrsWargamer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:34 pm

What do 'I' think of bundle games?

Well in most cases I have never heard of half of the bundle. In most cases the game would never have earned a cent from me as well.

In most cases games never sell in comparable sums to what they sell in 'deals' regardless of who has made the deal.

And I am just assuming that in most game developers minds, the detail that counts the most, when it concerns cash generation, is how much money do I get at the end of a sale vs how much money do I get at the end of a year of conventional normal retail price?
Because if games were not about the money, then we wouldn't need DRM and we wouldn't be paying anything for them would we.

I respect a developer's needs to generate income. Because they are doing it for laughs, the need to make a profit, and a good one. I am sure they need to do better than break even. Everyone involved will have bills to pay, as that is just life.

Sooooooo in the end, if selling a game in a bundle for what looks like a price that is demeaning/insulting/a rip off, and yet sells in such vast sums of units, that the pathetic looking price actually bashes right on through the sum total of logical, preferred suggested retail price and turns an incredible profit, then refusing to sell it that way is actually only accomplishing making the developer look obstinant, stubborn, and dumb :)

But when it isn't my property/my game/my priviledge, it is also not my decision either.

I won't buy something for pennies if it is still limiting my usage in the same fashion as full price. Because some things are deal killers.
I will in most cases buy some things for what seems like a crazy high price if I consider it money well spent all the same.
Every last one of my wargames was worth 50 bucks to me for instance. And some of my wargames are worth 100 bucks to me.
None of my wargames is worth 200 bucks in most cases under any situation though. Especially if I have the option to choose from 5 guys games, and 4 are at 50 bucks and one at 200 and they are equally good as programs. The 200 dollar game is not equal regardless of how it might differ.

I won't buy any game if it fails on some issue I won't budge on. Currently I'd like to have the new variant Combat Mission for instance. I am NOT budging though on nt accepting how Battlefront.com sells their games. No, I will not suffer their DRM scheme. No, I will not give you 5 dollars for a patch. I don't care if it is not easy for them to distribute the file. That's not our problem.

I would not mind an installer that installs all of my Panzer Corps DLC in one mouse click. It is really not that big of a deal to do it one at a time though. I am just lazy like the rest of humanity :) I would not mind a ful set at a reduced price of say 1 dollar off of each. But it is only like 6 bucks a piece. Added all together, it is really no big deal. If I can't afford them at that price, I can't afford them at all eh. Sometimes people need to just accept that sometimes they just can't have some things. People are often guilty of just being unable to say NO to themselves :)

The only reason to sell something at reduced price, is if the reduced price mathematically translates into making actually more money than not.

There is never any reason to sell something at less than it is worth, if you only end up with less profit in the process. And the condition of my wallet will never be sufficient reason for the retailer to reduce the price.

The other day, I bought 3 models. The owner of the store gave me the up coming sale price ahead of schedule. She was doing a no tax event. It was a nice gesture for her to make for me. The thing is, I buy on average 4 times as many models as logic would suggest are wise for me each month :) I am one of her best customers when it comes to models. None of my purchases are off the shelf for the most part, they are all custom orders. I move a lot of stock for her. Giving ME a good deal is a good idea. I have a friend, he buys so damned many console games, that the local store in town always gives him twice the rate of trade in value. It's good sense to treat him well, he buys so many new games.

You always promote anything that actually generates MORE sales. Because it is about making money eh. You always look for anything that increases the amount of money coming IN to the store, regardless of whether it looks to an observer like you are giving it away. You never though, actually give away money, if that is all you are doing. Because if it hurts sales, and hurts profit to do something, you don't do it for long before you are not in business.

I see businesses close all the time. Just because you have a business, does not mean you will still have it next year if your choices are wrong.

Yes all of the above seems painfully obvious after reading it, but, it is fairly clear, not everyone gets the obvious.
I can show you several wargame makers that are not with us any longer. They made great wargames, and then the company died. You need to do more than make a great reputation for making a great game, you need to run a great business too :)

ElIndio
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by ElIndio » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:06 am

I had a mare with Steam over the weekend, may of mentioned this before but I live out in the sticks and our internet is extremely hit and miss due to demand on the exchange (according to the ISP & there is no fibre optic cabling our way yet). Anyway during weekday mornings and afternoons we get a solid broadband connection and speed, so Steam works no problem. However, 8 or 9 times out of 10 you are more than likely to be at work in the daytime! Our connection speed absolutely dies a death on a lot of weekday evenings and at the weekends, when yes this is peak time on the exchange but also the most practical time you are likely to need the internet or wish to play a game.

Hence yesterday for example (Sunday) when I feel like a game of something, our internet speed was poor and I could not get Steam to connect all day, which is pretty bloody hopeless really yet this morning when I am about to go to work, of course it logs in immediately with no problem, Gee Thanks Steam lol!

The other interesting thing is my XBox 360, will connect to XBox live pretty much all of the time irrespective of our internet speed and if push comes to shove it will play offline no problem. So I can console game at anytime without worrying about the bloody internet. Hence for me at least, Steam does still have major connection issues depending on internet speed that really do put you off PC gaming going forward, especially for mainstream titles that you can buy on a console and play out of the box with no DRM issues, yet on PC those games are now almost all mandatorily linked to Steam.

Now I appreciate Steam can be switched to offline mode but A.You have to connect to the internet to do this and B. You are still having to load up a 3rd party DRM mechanism to play offline and the point of Steam really is to play online and win your achievements, keep in touch with friends et-al.

Frankly though, to be dictated to (in effect) that you can only play PC games when you can connect to the internet at sufficient speed and more importantly establish a connection to the Steam server in order to be able to play a game(s) you have purchased is just not good enough and frustrating beyond belief!

Hence games like Panzer Corps and company's like Slitherine will always get my custom and consideration for keeping it simple with no DRM and more old school PC gaming where you just boot the damn game up irrespective of being online or not......!

ThvN
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
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Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by ThvN » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:31 pm

ElIndio, I know very little about Steam, but I may have a helpful experience for you: I have no trouble starting up Steam without an internet connection.

You say that you need to be able to connect to the internet to switch Steam to offline modus, but if I yank out my connection and start Steam it will ask if I want to start in offline modus, and then I can play offline without trouble. Does is not give you that option? Perhaps it 'sees' the connection and will try to connect over and over again and will not let you play until it can complete the connection (which is probably too busy). But apparently, if you have no connection at all (i.e. pull the plug, zero connectivity) Steam will give you the option to start in offline mode. Maybe it will work for you, this way you'll at least be able to play offline when your internet is slow.

Where I used to live we had the same problem, connectivity dropped to almost zero as soon as schools were out or at the end of a working day. Then after midnight it would slowly pick up again until you had a fast connection again. The worst part was knowing that a lot of these people just started up their machines to check email or play solitaire and leave them on, and all the while their connection would run full throttle because of malware and other crap.

I knew this because I helped a couple of neighbours with computer (read: user) trouble, and these usually had (unknown to them) programs running in the background which ate up bandwidth while they complained that their machines were so slow. One example: a person had downloaded a few music files "months ago", and the exchange program was configured to run at startup and allowed to use max bandwidth available, and this computer was on all evening, every evening.

I was told that this was not possible because the exchange program was only rarely used and was always "closed" when done... Apparently, this person believed that if a program does not have a window open it is not running :evil: . Furthermore: No antivirus installed, incredimail, six toolbars covering half the browser window, of which several were pure malware (gambling site crap, etc.) I was half expecting Bonzi buddy to turn up as well. It takes only a couple of these to ruin it for the rest. So one solution could be to befriend all your neighbours and 'fix' their computers for them, but if you do that you won't ever have time again to play a few games...

ElIndio
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Yet another steam (Digital Distro) thread

Post by ElIndio » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:04 am

ThvN:

Thanks for the tips regarding Steam. I have previously tried taking out (or switching off) my internet connection and starting Steam, which does give you the option to start offline but then pops up with a message saying "Cannot connect to Steam servers"!

Offline mode again generally seems very hit and miss.

Anyway I have switched my Steam account into offline mode about a week ago. I logged in on a weekday morning when I had a decent connection and simply switched it to offline. The only game I now have installed on Steam is 'Total War Shogun 2' (I have culled / deleted everything else on Steam), which I largely just play single player on. If I ever want to play multiplayer matches on it, I'll just have to do it on the occasions when I am at home in the daytime during the week and can get a decent connection to the Steam server!

Touch wood though so far Steam offline has worked well for me with no issues for the last week and I have been able to play Shogun 2 at anytime without worrying about the internet huzzah!

Going forward I am going to try to avoid Steam linked games as much as possible, as all of this simply highlights what a pain in the ar$e the whole system is and how frighteningly reliant on the internet we are all becoming to do something simple like play a computer game!

The only other Steam linked games i Want next year will be Company of Heroes 2 and probably Total War Rome 2 and I'll resort to the same procedure for each one.

All this bodes well for Slitherine though as I'll keep buying their games for simplicity and because they are cool as well ;->!

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