The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

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econ21
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The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

Post by econ21 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:00 pm

The Sturmpanzer 1 unit in the game seems odd: it's a 150mm SPA unit you can get in 1939 (for a competitive price). I did not recognise it from history or Pg1, so did a little looking around. It was a short barrelled infantry gun on a Panzer 1 chasis, used mainly for bunker busting and related close up work. Functionally, it was not the equivalent of the long barrelled SPAs proper that came out in 1943 (Hummel, Wespe) - but in game it is. Only a few dozen were produced as it was quite an unstable platform.

The range of the 150mm SiG infantry gun was about 4,700m, well short of that for the 15cm sFH 18 long barrelled artillery piece (13,250m) or even the 7.5cm artillery gun (12,300m). In game, I think it's range should be 1 hex - so it is useful for close quarter bombardment of fortified cities etc, but not anachronistically early SPA proper. That would be more historically accurate and also make for better gameplay (the unit at the moment is too good for something available so early).

bebro
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Re: The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

Post by bebro » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:03 pm

Wondered about that too, but IIRC it was the same in PG1? Could be wrong though....Though once we start debating unit stats it could evolve into be a never-ending story....

econ21
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Post by econ21 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:15 pm

No, it was not in PG1. I remember there was an early 1 hex mobile artillery unit in Pg1 (it's an auxilary in Norway). It was more heavily armored but because of the range, it was pretty useless.

I am not bothered about the minutae of unit stats generally, but the functional difference between a short range infantry gun and a 150mm long range artillery piece is pretty big. Reading how lots of people use Sturmpanzer 1s exclusively as their core artillery when it was not really artillery and only a few dozen were made means it's an important issue for the game. Of course, since the player is German, you can always not buy any so I guess I will have to do that.

bebro
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Post by bebro » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:29 pm

Yeah, I agree with you. I used only towed arty in the first scns for the same reason.

Maybe I'll even mod the SP I range to be shorter - easy enough as long it's all single-player. For MP it's different of course since all players should use the same equipment file(s).

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Post by nikivdd » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:39 pm

Perhaps it is better to cut down the range to 2 for the Sturmpz I.

The StuG IIIB is a worthy replacement, with several advantages: higher movement, more ammo and is doing a great job in supporting the panzers when being attacked.

Aloo
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Post by Aloo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:42 pm

Im fairly sure such a unit was available in PG1 or PG2. I think it was called sIG33 or sIG Ia or something in that direction. It is strong but it also costs a bit and has little ammo so I think it is fairly well balanced. I usually have 1 or 2 in my core.

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Post by huertgenwald » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:43 pm

It's a 15 cm sIG 33 mounted on a Pz I.

According to wikipedia it had a range of 4,7 km.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sIG_33

Aloo
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Post by Aloo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:45 pm

I know what it was but I think I remember it had such a strange name in PG or PG2.

econ21
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Post by econ21 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:12 pm

Sorry, Aloo is right - it was in PG1, the SiG33, and it had similar stats to those in PzC. It still seems odd to treat the gun the same as the long barrelled 150m one which had almost three times the range.

Aside from the name difference, I think what threw me was the availability: the Sturmpanzer is available in 1939, but in PG1, it was in May 1940. Wikipedia also dates it as coming into the field in 1940, saying that in Poland the Germans found the towed piece had trouble keeping up with infantry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sIG_ ... n_I_Ausf_B

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Post by slb79 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:00 pm

I agree that the sturmpanzer I is one of the most overrated units in the game. I have already reduced its range to 2 in my equipment file (as it was in the original PG) but I am still uncertain whether to give it the fortkiller attribute or not (maybe accompanied by a small increase in price). As for the availability I don't buy any SIGs prior to the France campaign because I find it highly unhistorical.

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Post by Casaubon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:06 pm

I agree that the sturmpanzer I is one of the most overrated units in the game.

I second this, reducing range would help the balance.

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Post by Audi » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:01 pm

Sturmpanzers are way too overpowered, i can't find any place for a towed artillery in my squad, Sturmpanzer just way better even versus 18cm guns. 1 hex is optimal for this gun, i also would like to see price increasing with decreasing damage.

Longasc
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Post by Longasc » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:25 pm

Given that the StuG IIIB will fill a similar "1 hex artillery" role...

... maybe 2 hex range for the Sturmpanzer? That would be middle of the road and seems to go nicely with real world/historical data.

DrkCon
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Post by DrkCon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:29 pm

I think changing it to 1 hex will relegate it to the never purchased, only used when forced upon you at the start of a scenario role.

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Post by boredatwork » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:33 pm

Which would be inline with the fact the Germans never bothered to produce more than 38 of them.

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Post by DrkCon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:38 pm

boredatwork wrote:Which would be inline with the fact the Germans never bothered to produce more than 38 of them.
Well, you could always simply not buy one if you dont like it. Or simply never use it to shoot more than 1 hex. Why remove something from the game when the ability to not play with it already exists? We should be looking to increase options, not take them away.

Strict adherence to historical accuracy is sort of ridiculous to bring up in a video game anyhow.

soldier
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Post by soldier » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:52 pm

Theres always room for a few towed guns in my core force, the sig is too unreliable with its ammo supply to be a one and only option. As much as i love my devastating sig, range of three is probably a bit over the top for such a short barelled gun but I'm pretty sure it was also 3 in the old PG. I've always been a big fan of the stug and even more so now. Its been significantly beefed up recently and is dirt cheap at 220p. An excellent defensive set up gun in the early years.

If they did look at changing the range of the sig, its worth mentioning that theres a whole host of short barelled soviet guns doing the same thing in the late war scenarios.
Last edited by soldier on Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Casaubon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:55 pm

what is that people write about the
"1 hex artillery" role
. Is there such a unit already causing supression effect on enemy units from 1 distance like artilleries do from further away? Did I miss something?

soldier
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Post by soldier » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:04 pm

Its the stugIIIb. It has range of one but offers defensive fire to any adjacent unit that is attacked

Ritterkreuz
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my favorite unit

Post by Ritterkreuz » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:27 am

In PG1, the SIG wasn't very useful because artillery had different rules for fire and move.

Here, it is a wonderful unit - the first two units I bought in DLC 39 were 2 SIGs.
They can fire and move behind Infantry for defensive artillery support.

Later, they can upgrade to Hummel and Wespe for almost no money.

This is how the SIG became my favorite unit.

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