The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

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Ritterkreuz
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my favorite unit

Post by Ritterkreuz » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:28 am

In PG1, the SIG wasn't very useful because artillery had different rules for fire and move.

Here, it is a wonderful unit - the first two units I bought in DLC 39 were 2 SIGs.
They can fire and move behind Infantry for defensive artillery support.

Later, they can upgrade to Hummel and Wespe for almost no money.

This is how the SIG became my favorite unit.

econ21
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Post by econ21 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:26 am

I am trying to remember why I did not use the SigIB (Sturmpanzer) in PG. I guess it must have been the low ammo: only 3. In PzC, it is 4.

My original post has some errors - the Sturmpanzer was in PG1 and the idea that it was dedicated to bunker busting etc is based on a misreading of the wikipedia entry (the bunker busting bit was about one type of ammo it used). The gun had a range of 3 miles, so restricting it to 1 hex seems overly severe.

I still think the unit is a little too good and would suggest a few changes:

- Range 2 (as it had a short barrel and was much shorter ranged than the long barrel 150mm gun or even the 75mm field gun).

- Later availability: PG1 had 5/40. Certainly not for Poland.

- Perhaps higher cost? I have some memory of a "rarity factor" in pricing units (e.g. 1.0 if weapon was common, 1.4 or so if it was rare); if only 38 were produced, this may be appropriate.

- Perhaps reduced ammo: the wikipedia entry mentions the lack of space to store ammo.

impar
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Post by impar » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:47 am

soldier wrote:Its the stugIIIb. It has range of one but offers defensive fire to any adjacent unit that is attacked
Well, the attack is being fought in the adjacent hex.
econ21 wrote:I still think the unit is a little too good and would suggest a few changes:
- Range 2 (as it had a short barrel and was much shorter ranged than the long barrel 150mm gun or even the 75mm field gun).
- Later availability: PG1 had 5/40. Certainly not for Poland.
- Perhaps higher cost? I have some memory of a "rarity factor" in pricing units (e.g. 1.0 if weapon was common, 1.4 or so if it was rare); if only 38 were produced, this may be appropriate.
- Perhaps reduced ammo: the wikipedia entry mentions the lack of space to store ammo.
Available in Norway with a 2-hex range?
And 15cm sFH 18 available in Poland to compensate?
Dont think prestige cost should be increased if moved to a Norway availability. Other new units are also being offered in that scenario (prestige would be spent on those units too) and if the player is already using 15cm sFH 18 doubt it would change to Sturmpanzer I.
Regarding ammo, although the vehicle itself carries very few rounds, other vehicles in the convoy would carry extra ammo.

kjeld111
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Post by kjeld111 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:31 am

It might be a little too good for Poland (but I am not convinced it should be changed, as there are already plenty of outdated units you have to use for those scenarios anyway that won't count for building your "fututre" core, like in the tank and AT categories, it's cool in my book that there are at least a few non infantry non air units that you can actually count on after Warsaw), but by the time you reach DLC41, it competes with towed artillery, wurfrahmens, STuGs and nebelwerfers, and is pretty much balanced in this aspect. But it is a gameplay motivated point of view - disregarding actual history :p

PanzerG
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Post by PanzerG » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:12 pm

kjeld111 wrote: But it is a gameplay motivated point of view - disregarding actual history :p
I would argue along the same line. Another example for game balance > historical accuracy:
Think about the 8.8 Flak: 3 hexes range vs air targets, but it has adjacent hex range when used as AT unit....

I kinda imagine my 8.8 crews cutting of 2/3 of the barrel each time they fire on a tank and later welding it back on :)

Same goes for the number/availability argument of the Sturmpanzer I: No real german WW2 army corps had all halftrack towed arty and halftrack mounted infantry, like mine in this game has...

For the Sturmpanzer I, it's 3 hex range simply balances it's problems: low ammo, low movement range. So i don't think range needs to be changed.

Adjusting availability date and/or cost would be enough imho.

Zhivago
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Post by Zhivago » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:28 pm

I think an important question is what is the actual physical size a single hex is supposed to represent in the game? How many yards across? With this information, it would obviously be easier to figure out the ranges for each artillery piece.

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Post by huertgenwald » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:42 pm

How many yards across ?
As stated quite often, the hex scale is completely variable from scenario to scenario.

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Post by bebro » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:42 pm

Zhivago wrote:I think an important question is what is the actual physical size a single hex is supposed to represent in the game?
Is that consistent through the whole game? I remember in PG Sevastopol we had quite a large city area covering a good part of the map to represent one city, while in other maps it was of course totally different.

edit: as posted above

impar
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Post by impar » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:15 pm

Also, regarding range, the 17cm should have more than it has now.

Zhivago
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Post by Zhivago » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:22 pm

huertgenwald wrote:
How many yards across ?
As stated quite often, the hex scale is completely variable from scenario to scenario.
Well, if that is the case, the sturmpanzer bison I may very well be able to fire 3 hexes in some scenarios, and less than that in others, if the yards-per-hex size is not uniform.

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Post by huertgenwald » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:44 pm

In a perfect world: yes !

El_Condoro
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Post by El_Condoro » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:11 pm

In my mind the ranges are abstractions:
0-1: assault
2: short-range
3: average range
4: long range (are there any 4-range units? Otherwise, 3 range, too.)
The actual yards a gun could fire are then abstracted to those hex ranges and the effect of hex scales is made less important.
To my way of thinking that would put the Sturmpanzer in the 2 hex range.

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Post by DrkCon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:15 pm

El_Condoro wrote:(are there any 4-range units? )
Just specialty guns like the Schwerer Gustav and Naval guns. I think there is a Fort or 2 that has a range of 4 too. Tho its very possible to get a +1 Range hero obviously.

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Re: The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

Post by impar » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:26 pm

econ21 wrote:The range of the 150mm SiG infantry gun was about 4,700m, well short of that for the 15cm sFH 18 long barrelled artillery piece (13,250m) or even the 7.5cm artillery gun (12,300m). In game, I think it's range should be 1 hex - so it is useful for close quarter bombardment of fortified cities etc, but not anachronistically early SPA proper. That would be more historically accurate and also make for better gameplay (the unit at the moment is too good for something available so early).
Developer input on this?

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Re: The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

Post by Rudankort » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:44 pm

impar wrote:Developer input on this?
The reason why this unit exists in the game at all is to have an early self-propelled option. Historically very few were produced, so it is already a stretch.

The question I ask myself is:
- Do people buy Sturmpanzer now?
- Will they buy it if its range is dropped to 2?

Some opinions on these two points would help to decide what to do.

El_Condoro
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Post by El_Condoro » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:30 pm

Yes and yes. They can move more than one hex and fire - already a big boost. At range 2 they would still give good support fire. Range 3 is just a bit too much IMO.

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Post by airbornemongo101 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:53 pm

El_Condoro wrote:In my mind the ranges are abstractions:
0-1: assault
2: short-range
3: average range
4: long range (are there any 4-range units? Otherwise, 3 range, too.)
The actual yards a gun could fire are then abstracted to those hex ranges and the effect of hex scales is made less important.
To my way of thinking that would put the Sturmpanzer in the 2 hex range.
I concur wholeheartedly :D

I'm doing the those exact range changes in the "Mod that shall not be named" :wink: and the Expanded SE Mod.

I've done some testing and,at least for me, the ranges work. Here's why 8)

Cutting the range of the Sturmpanzer and Sig38 brings them into the realm of which they were in real life: Infantry guns that were given S/P capability to keep up to the Pz.Grens rgts/standart they were assigned to. From what research I've done, no real changes were made to the guns themselves ,,they were just plopped onto a chassis (so to speak)and away they went. They actually fullfilled their roles quite well, which was to give PzGren rgts/standarten w/ intergral fire support as a stop gap until better desgins came into widespread field use

The Hummel and Wespe were designed from the ground up to be Self Propelled Arty assigned to Pz. and PzGren Divions (granted they used existing chassis's, but gun and chassis were reengineered/modified). They were absolutely (and rightly so,particulary the Hummel ) treasued by the units they were assigned to,for both their flexibility and versatiliy as mechnized artillery

Aside from historical accuracy,which quite frankly is not that a big of a deal to me :) , the range of 2 for the StrmPz 1 and Sig38 still gives them a little bit of offensive capability while still being able to be extremely handy in the defensive support role. The StugIII also does this well,but it is a more robust unit and can get right next to a target (the assault aspect,thus the 1 hex range) and still have a reasonable chance of survival from direct enemy fire,whereas the SrtmPz 1 and Sig38 will suffer if not screened by other units,but have a little better range.

I kept the range of 3 for the wespe , 105mm towed, Hummel and 150 mm towed and upped it to 4 for the 170 mm and the 210 mm as well as all forts.

Think of the size and real life range of the 170mm and 210mm,both were enormous. The forts I upped just to keep them competitive w/ the new arty ranges.

I actually upped the range pf the Gustav and K-5 to 5 (again think of the sheer size and the real life range of those guns).

The main diffenrence in the game btwn Mech Arty and towed is reflected quite well by the ammo structure and cost. I didn't change anything in those aspects. This continues to give the player a viable choice both ways bwtn Mech. and towed Arty.

So far I don't see any imbalances in any scn's during my testing,of course that may change once I get everything organized and ask some else to test,but so far so good, and the in game versatility of S/P and towed arty is not adversely affected.

Just my .02$ in the reasons for the changes and support of El Condoro's statement
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Re: The Sturmpanzer 1 is too long ranged

Post by Aloo » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:50 am

Rudankort wrote:
Historically very few were produced, so it is already a stretch.
I dont think this is a good argument to use. There are more units in game, produced in similarly small ammounts f.e. the JagdTiger - 88pcs or the Mouse -2 prototypes, there might be more.

I use 1 Sturmpanzer since the start of the dlc's. There is no incentive for me to use more.
I have 3 or 4 towed art, 1 Sturmpanzer, 2 Halftrack mounted Nebelwerfer's (i dont remember what they are called) and one StuG IIIb. If I was to buy more art I would consider another IIIb.

If you would drop the range to 2 it would be a hard decision to buy it, since it would be useless by 41 with the SP Nebelwerfer available.

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Post by El_Condoro » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:01 am

The Wurfrahmen 40, which is the one to which you refer, is also range 2. It has better stats to compensate but I think the range is about right for it and also the Sturmpanzer.

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Post by Tarrak » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:40 am

I personally think the Sturmpanzer is fine as it is now. Maybe not from the historical point of view but certainly from game balance point of view.

It's main advantage is being able to move up 4 hexes and shot so being able to keep up with short range pushes. It got quite a few disadvantages tho: On big maps with lots of space between defense strongholds it actually tends to fall behind your spearhead, it only got 4 ammunition which makes you really think when you want to use it and it's not really more resistant then towed infantry (1 more CD but 5 less AD).

I am personally using Sturmpanzers in a 1:2 mix with towed artillery in the early war times. When Wurfrahmen and StuGs become available it's turning more into an even mix. Now when the range of Sturmpanzers get reduced to 2 i will have to hardly consider using them at all. A range of 2 paired with their low movement and low ammunition will seriously cripple the unit.

Reducing the range to 1 makes it totally worthless. They will be only usable as defensive artillery because unlike the StuGs they do not have the armor nor the speed to go into the front line. I will surely not even think about buying one in that case. Welcome to the "totally useless unit" status.

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