AK Gazala line help...

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timek28
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AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Hi all,
'
I'm playing Gazala line for the 2nd time. this time on FIeldmarshal. I finished AK on Colonel. I'm having tramendous problems with British air supremacy and I cannot find a way to circumvent it. Basically no matter how many planes I down with AA or my planes they just keep reapearing.

My logical thought is to try to capture most of their airfields as soon as posible to prevent AI from spawining planes and rearming them, and even if I try that I somehow get bombarded from the planes coming out of nowhere. I cannot compete with Brits in terms of plane numbers. I have only one 2 starred Bf109g and couple of itallian auxilaries which are completely unuseful. Previous missions required strong ground force so I couldn't invest in planes that much. Besides I guess this is historically acurate. AI on the other hand usually has 3-5 figher units in the air with 2 bombarders or more. Also I bought additional flak 88s so I have 3 of them now, but even this is not helping too much...

I also came to idea of capturing all AI airfields ASAP with Falschrimjagers. To my astoundment however I cannot put them in plane transports for some reason?!?! I cannot believe that this is happening. Non of them have land transports so they should be easily boarded to planes. This is really annoying, and hopefully it is not some kind of AI cheat.

Also I saw there is one hangar facility for RAF on far right. I'm not sure weather destroying this facility influences RAF strength but my guess it does in some way. However it is really far right and behind enemy lines so it is not easily reachable.

Wtihout stopping these air attacks it is almost impoissible to advance with tanks and ground forces as they take heavy casualities which are very hard to replace due to scarcity of prestige.

Any input is appreciated.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

I used new strategy. I strated attackinh from both north and south not just south, and it seems to pay off for now. I broke through British lines very early around the Gazala city and got into their rear with Panzer IVGs . Now I can destroy their artillery positions and move italian forces thoguh the front once they start retreating. This is very important since There are some 5-6 victory hex points so 500-600 prestige can mean a lot once RAF appears.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

I managed to capture all airfields except the furthest one right pretty quiclkly with the last tactic, but to no avail. Alied bombing contineus nevertheless. I also assume the planes are coming off map or maybe from carriers. I have to listen to mission briefing once again since it will probably mention tactics around the planes.

I'm startled of what to do. Scenario would be hard even without the planes but with them it is just down right annoying. Especially since there is need to rush behind enemy lines and in the middle is large concentracion of British armor which cannot be destroeyd unless my tanks are at full strength.

There is a point where for some reson Brits start to retreat. However I havent found out what triggers this exactly, and the whole flee process is not fleeing but moving one hex at a time which only removes entrenchemnt.
ThvN
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by ThvN »

Hi timek28, I remember from playing this scenario that a lot of allied airplanes spawn not near airfields, but are simply triggered to appear in later turns. And as long as there is an airfield available to them they will attack, otherwise they will just sit in the sky (a well-known exploit). I will have a look with the editor too see about the 'retreat' trigger. I can also see where and when the allied aircraft are spawned, if you want that.

About your paratroopers, you should not be able to deploy paratroopers in Ju52's here because they have been disabled in this scenario. This is probably to keep this scenario from being too easy. Quick question: have you had the British drop any paratroopers? They can be a real danger.

That hangar on the map does nothing I think. Have you been able to get the bonus tank? An extra unit can be useful on such a big map.

As for your units, I believe that the Italian auxiliary fighters you receive are MC-202's, if you are desperate you can upgrade those for 76 prestige each to MC-205, which are much better. If you buy any new fighters, you might be better of with a Bf 109F, not the G, as the the F has higher initiative which might help it getting better results if it is still green. But only one core fighter is not enough

I'm a big fan of anti-aircraft units, the 88mm is nice to defend static positions, but you might consider the SdKfz 7/2 halftrack and use its mobility to protect your advancing troops. I usually keep it next to vulnerable units such as mobile artillery. It's not perfect but it might be worth it. Especially deep in the desert where your aircraft will take too long to reach any suddenly appearing enemy aircraft.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Hi ThvN,

Thanks for your observations. They are very helpful!

I also noticed that as long as there is an airfield the allied aircraft will attack. That is perfectly normal I suppose. What bothers me is that they are moving in strange directions, as to refuel somewhere (not on the sea) where there is no airfield at all. And one additional problem is that British aircraft have much more fuel and range then my fighters. Especially more then Italian ones. There is no need for you to watch for spawns, I am about to get DV anyways. I just want to get 4000 prestige bonus and still keep my units intact (experience wise).

So paratrooper problem is scenarios predefined condition? Although I understand this from developer standpoint I find it a cheap trick. We should be able to exploit any weakness in enemy's strategy. It is not fun trying to do exactly what was done historically. Or to force battle in just one or two ways. Yes I had British paratroopers. But I keep close eye on them and down them even before they land. There are only 3 of them.

Yes I have received a bonus tank. But it is not strong and I use it only to finish off badly damaged enemy units. Anything but that is not good for the tank.

I agree that one fighter is not enough, but I had enough problems with prestige in previous missions that it deemed much better way to buy 88s than Bf109 as 88s can be a huge asset on both ground and air. Bf109 is relatively mediocre in air and has little use in ground attacks. It seems that fighters are not useful before Fw190... Most British aircraft except old Hurricanes have at least the same air attack and experience as my Bf109s, and it is very hard to destroy whole units without the help of 88s. I tried upgrading MC 202 to MC 205 but it made little difference as I would get 4-4 result expectation at best with any British aircraft. I don't know why is it this low since MC 205 has air attack of 16...Now I'm using both SdKfz 7/2 and 88mm in advancing so I agree with your suggestion (not just one or the other).

As far as tactics goes I changed it a bit. I blew a hole in minefields north of Bir Hakeim and drove tank column (2 Pz3J/1, 2Pz4G and 1Stug3F all 2 starred) behind enemy around fortified city north of Bir Hakeim. One smaller group of units (infantry and artillery) attacks Bir Hakeim itself and captures it with help of bombers (while allied aircraft haven't appeared yet). The tanks attack rear of strong fortifications and blow defenses open while engaging enemy armor which tries to intervene. Lots of British tanks fall into ambushes this way which is incredibly neat (as the middle of map holds around 8-10 british tank units, 2 times more than number of my tanks - so ambushes help a lot). On the south infantry, artillery and recon units continue marching towards southern cities and airfields. This tactic has worked very good so far. I'm able to blow through tight defense pockets and destroy British planes in the same time as I have concentration of AA guns in one spot and my airfields are close so I can send fighters to finish off damaged British planes.

So far the tactic is working good :) I will report how it goes till the end.
ThvN
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by ThvN »

Ok, thanks for the update, and indeed this map can be a challenge, especially if you are low on prestige. So good job, I hope you get the 4000pr, and just sell that useless captured tank if you need more.

I'm a bit puzzled by your comments on the MC-205 though, it is nearly as good as the Bf-109 G and a lot cheaper, and it carries a little bit more fuel as well. I did a little test, and used the four top Axis fighters, all with strength 10 and experience 160 (quite low, but those are the values for auxiliary fighters you get in the scenario) against the strength 12 Hurricane Mk II in the scenario. In a one-on-one combat the predicted results were:

MC-202: -5/-2
MC-205: -3/-4
Bf 109F: -3/-2
Bf 109G: -2/-3

And against a strength 11 Spitfire Mk I:
MC-202: -5/-2
MC-205: -3/-3
Bf 109F: -2/-2
Bf 109G: -2/-2

So it is much better than the MC-202, and compared to the Bf 109 there should be little difference in performance, and against targets with low initiative (INI) the MC-205 usually does more damage because of its higher air attack (AA). I shouldn't focus too much on the AA values however, the INI is also very important in deciding combat results between airplanes. And if you overstrength your fighters they can be much more effective of course, but that can be expensive...
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Interesting... The problem is that I never have done extensive analysis of combat predictions. The game is time consuming as it is. When I say combat predictionss I mean calculating initiative and doing the ctrl click before battle. Attack and defense is the most important thing imo and generally the unit expense is linear representation of units capabilities and performance. This is rarely different, and I don't know how lower attack and higher initiative can be better thing than better attack and lower initiative. And by the way most expensive units usually have highest initiative and I tend to go for most expensive units almost always.

Also I have low confidence in Italian units in general, since despite their paremeters they tend to perform worse than their German counterparts. There are couple of planes worth mentioning but other than that Italian units perform badly. I don't know how far their upgrade tree goes (since they were in war until 1943 and have no new units after that) so I don't want to invest in units that will become useless later. But as auxilaries they do the purpose.

Edit: I see that MC 205 has similar combai predictions to what I have told earlier (4-4). I do not find that prediction satisfactory. Especially in conditions where there is 3 times more British planes than mine. So AA defense might be better way of downing aircraft than loosing half of units strenght in one turn.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

I almost succeeded this time. In this strategy I neglected the northern part of the line though and couldn't destroy heavily entrenched positions with frontal attacks of weak italian infantry. I will have to divert some of my tanks to help italians here also. I have to be more bold and quicker as quickness yet caution in this mission is everything.
ThvN
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by ThvN »

Hi timek28, still not a bad result, you came very close I guess. Also, out of curiosity, may I ask what kind of core forces you use? I found Pioniere to be very useful here, as they can clear minefields very quickly. A full strength Pioniere can take out a minefield in on attack, very useful to quickly create some gaps.

And about the initiative stat, sorry to go on about it, but it can be very important; it determines who shoots first but the difference between the initiative values of the units fighting each other also determines how many get to shoot back. So a unit with very high attack strength may be theoretically capable to kill or suppress a unit with high defenses, but it's the initiative that determines how effectively a unit can use its strength. See the FAQ: viewtopic.php?f=121&t=34568

As a small practical example, I once tried two different Spitfires (Mk VB and Mk IX) against a SE Bf110F fighter-bomber. An easy target, but still with interesting results. The only difference in combat values between the Mk VB and the Mk IX is that the Mk VB has INI-8 and the Mk IX INI-10. With the Mk VB attacking, calculation was -2/-6, quite good. When checking the log, the difference in INI (2 points) would cause (on average) the Bf 110 to retaliate with 7 out of its 10 strength points, each with a 22% chance of a kill on my Spitfire Mk VB.

With the Spitfire Mk IX the difference in INI was higher (4 points), but still the Bf 110 had a 22% chance for each counterattack (per strength point) to kill a Spitfire (this % is based on strength of attack versus strength of defense, and both Spitfires have identical values for those).
But this time the Bf 110 would on average only have 1 out of 10 points to shoot back, because of the higher INI of the Mk IX. And therefore the predicted combat ratio was 0/-6. This effect is strongest with a difference in INI of five points, more is useless. And of course experience, heroes, weather and luck can also influence this as well.

You can also lower the enemy initiative with a mass attack: for every other unit that is able to attack the target, its INI gets lowered by 1 point, so if you use three fighters against a single opponent the first attacking fighter has an (extra) 2-point INI advantage. If the INI values are quite close, like with the Spitfires you encounter, this may help a lot in improving combat results. So for example you can use the Italian fighters as a pair, to make them a bit more effective.

Good luck with the next battle.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Interesting observations ThvN...

My core forces include 2 Panzer 3 J/1, 2 Panzer 4 G, 1 Stug 3F, 2 Recion units, 4 Artilery (1 Wurfrahmen, 1 Italian 149mm, 2 italian armored self propelled artillery), 2 88s, 1 SdKfz 7/2, 1 Grenadier, 1 Pioneer, 3 Bersaglieri 1 Bf 109G, 1 Bf110G, 2 Ju87D, 1 Breda... I think I didn't forget anything. That is max capacity of the core (2 Se units i think), so it is what it is... If I had one additional fighter I would have to pull down on already scarce prestige, or to disband some of ground units (which is not a good options - I already need more tanks than this) or maybe Ju87.

Yes I use Pioneers extensively in the minefields. They helped a lot. I did a search on the Gazala line and found out that most of the players had problems here. Although most of them played on medium difficulty so I'm still trying to get the best strategy for Fieldmarshal. I'm very close though but DV victory with 4000P bonus will be a very close call (yet worth it).

The good thing about this is that developers gave us sense of the diffirculties AK had in war with British. Scarce supplies, small core, bad Italian units and lots of enemy aircraft and tanks. Almost impossible to win in the first tryout. And there was only one try historically wise.
Tarrak
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by Tarrak »

I am playing AK usually on general but the only difference to fieldmarshal is the faster exp gain for my units so that early in the campaign the difference should not be huge and similar strategy should apply.

My core at my last successful attempt was as follows: 6 Infantry (2 x Pioniere, 1 x Kradschützen, 3 x Bersaglieri), 5 tanks (2 x PzIIIj/1, 1 x M14/41, 2 x SE PzIIIj/1), 2 recon units (2 x Sdkfz 232), 7 Artillery (2 x StugIIIb, 2 x M40 da 75/18, 1 x Wurfrahmen 40, 1 x 17cm K 18, 1 x 105mm 105/28), 1 AA (1 x SdKfz 10/4), 6 x Air (2 x Bf109G, 1 x MC205, 1 x Breda Ba.65, 1 x Bf110G , 1 x SE Bf110G). Overall 23 standard and 4 SE units. My core is quite bigger then yours from what i see. You seems to not have destroyed the hangars in the Dash to the Wire scenario as they award 3 bonus units: 1 x StugIIIb, 1 x SE Pz3 and 1 x SE Bf109.

I deployed my Italian 105mm gun and the Italian tank in the north to help the auxiliary "Gruppe Heckler" Pioneers and the 15.Schützen Brigadde to attack Gazala and the nearby airfields. The rest of the Italian auxiliary units just remained in defensive positions initially. After Gazala fell the units can attack the week rear of the British units at the fortification and the Italian troops can join the fun as well. The timing depends a bit tho on the progress of the rest of the operation as usually the troops here will need some help to finish the opposition off. While waiting around the Italian troops usually keep themself busy with thwarting off the paratroopers attack on the airfield.

The rest of my core units was split in two about equal forces breaking through the minefields north and south of Bir Hacheim. The northern pincer arm swung then north towards the fortifications near Sidi Muftah and Kingsbridge. When they attacked the enemy there the Italian auxiliary forces joined the fun. After the fortifications are taken out part of the troops, if needed, supports the fighting around Gazala and the rest moves towards Tobruk.

The southern pincer takes Bir Hacheim itself and then push wests towards Bir el Gubi and the airfield there. Part of the troops remain there for the additional defensive objective that activates when the airfield is taken and the the rest go north to take Sidi Rezegh and Belhamed.

With this strategy i am usually able to pull of a DV with a two or three turns spare. A very important part of the strategy is the proper use of air power. Having some experience with this map and predicting where it's needed most at which time is critical.

As a side note i don't remember anymore why the hell the Italian tac bomber (Breda Ba.65) was in my core in the first place ... either i got it somewhere before as bonus or i was experimenting around to test their value ... i usually would rather have the level bomber instead of it.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Thanks for strategy advice Tarrak.

Interestingly enough my strategy is very similar to yours. You have more SE troups though which is a nice advantage for you. The thing that got me the most is that you got 3 units from Dash to the wire!? How?? I destroyed 3 fuel depots and got DV on that scenario with minimum losses considering the difficulty of it.

I also got bonus Cruser tank from the southest city close to the wire. I did not attack cities and airfelds east of Al Halfaya pass as it is quite hard to mount that attack but they where not victory hexes anyways. Is that what I should capture in order to get 3 bonus SE units?! That could mean a lot. Although I'm not sure how I should arrange such attack given the circumstances.

Other than that yes our strategies are similar and I'm close to DV. On a sidenote Breda is bonus unit from Second offensive as far as I can remember. Together with two itallian artillery units. Breda is not that useful thouh as it is worse than Ju87Ds.
Tarrak
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by Tarrak »

Yes we seems to be applying similar strategy and i think you are on the right path. The lack of a the few units in your core force may be the deciding difference here.

If you are having problems here and you still have your save from "Dash to the Wire" you may consider to go back and replay it and the "Second Offensive" scenario after. The three bonus units you can get in "Dash to the Wire" are quite nice addition to the core.

There are a few (around 3 or 4) hangars in the Dash to the Wire map. They are not related to the the victory conditions and are not to be confused with the supply dumps. I think there is a randomness in where exactly they spawn but they are in the West - Southern part of the map. They are only defended by a few weak troops so little detachment (i think i used a SdKfz 232 and my Kradschützen to do it as they can easily catch up with the main force again) of your troop is enough to destroy them. As i said destroying them rewards a StugIIb, a SE Bf109 and a SE PzIII .. not sure in which particular order tho. It's really worthwhile to go after them if you can afford it.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Wow! That's great news :)

I will definitely replay Dash to the wire mission. Although 3 additional units will not increase my core as there is only 22 units for Gazala but I can shuffle them better and put Bf, artillery and Pz3 into action instead of Ju87s and Bredas which are hard to use in Gazala anyways.

I find Dash to the wire pain in the ass though, but 3 units are great bonus.

It puzzles me how there are lots of missions in AK that hold very important Easter eggs which are in no way suggested in briefing. Forum is the only place where one can find about them and their exact locations. I'm not sure is this done just to award player curiosity and exploration or what... In dash to the wire hangars are as you describe them on completely opposite side of British attacking forces so I cannot find too much logic in this but who knows...
Tarrak
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by Tarrak »

Yes this hangars are quite well hidden. I stumbled upon them by mistake while looking for the supply dumps ... well that was still in beta where it wasn't really clear from the briefing where the supply dumps are. I guess they are meant as an exploration/conquest bonus kind of like all the another captureable units. The big difference here is tho you can get three units here for little effort and two of them are SE units which you can deploy additionally to your full core size ... while they do count towards the total limit of the SE units getting them earlier is a nice bonus.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

Wow 2 of them are SE? I never saw captured unit become a SE! And also I think I never saw captured unit to be German!!! This mission is truly unique, too bad briefing and in game massages are vague of hints.

Two additional strong units to my core might do the trick in Gazala :)
Tarrak
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by Tarrak »

Well all 3 of them are german and i am 99% sure 2 of them are SE ... but i am not 100% certain i just go by the names they have i my core .. my memory is ... like a good swiss cheese ... full of holes. :P
ThvN
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by ThvN »

Ah, that changes a lot... OK, beware, SPOILERS ahead, so I'll put it in small font:

In 'Dash to the Wire', four units can be captured/received as bonus:

One British Crusader tank if you capture Ft. Maddalena (32,32), it appears at (33,32)

Then, there are four hangar buildings deep in the desert. Their exact locations are somewhat random but if you draw a square on the map with hex (7,23) at top-left and hex (21,32) bottom-right, within this square you should find them all four.

One is always at the same spot (15,31) and if destroyed, a StuG IIIB should spawn at (1,2).
If the other three are destroyed, two bonus SE units should spawn: SE Panzer IIIJ (1,3) and SE Bf 109 F (2,3).


And I usually go after them with a Sahariana, a great Italian (switchable) unit, an excellent recon unit and it can double as (weak) infantry if needed, excellent if you suddenly have to deal with close terrain or something. I usually have on or two of those.

I see you still have a Breda tactical bomber in your core, if it is the one with the strong hero you can upgrade it to a SM.79 for 111pr, quite cheap and with the hero it can be surprisingly effective, but is won't stand up well against enemy fighters, so I'm not sure this is useful for your strategy.
timek28
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by timek28 »

I finally managed to beat Dash to the wire and get 3 bonus units. In this way I can sell captured Matilda and Crusader tanks and gain some 500 additional prestige which is incredibly important in upcoming missions. I also switched Pak 5cm into mobile anti tank unit (although weak) it will be great once I get Stug3F. Then I will have some 5 tank and 2 anti tank units, and I will maybe add one more tank to that.

I'm also considering buying one additional Bf109 since now I have two and also I'm thinking weather Ju87 have any real importance in future. Maybe I'll swap Ju87s for one more Bf109 (so I would have 4) as air protection seems the most important thing right now. Ju 87s are more or less useless on heavily entrenched positions and are easy pray for Spitfires.
Tarrak
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Re: AK Gazala line help...

Post by Tarrak »

timek28 wrote:I finally managed to beat Dash to the wire and get 3 bonus units. In this way I can sell captured Matilda and Crusader tanks and gain some 500 additional prestige which is incredibly important in upcoming missions. I also switched Pak 5cm into mobile anti tank unit (although weak) it will be great once I get Stug3F. Then I will have some 5 tank and 2 anti tank units, and I will maybe add one more tank to that.

I'm also considering buying one additional Bf109 since now I have two and also I'm thinking weather Ju87 have any real importance in future. Maybe I'll swap Ju87s for one more Bf109 (so I would have 4) as air protection seems the most important thing right now. Ju 87s are more or less useless on heavily entrenched positions and are easy pray for Spitfires.
Congratulations. This should help your core force significantly.

Regarding your anti tank units .. i am not a big fan of anti tank units in Panzer Corps. They are in no regards better then tanks and the price difference, at least between the self propelled, is not high enough to justify the limited core force slots "wasted" on them. A lot people see it different tho so maybe it's just me.

I would probably buy another fighter. Two are often not even enough to decimate a single enemy fighter in one turn if you're a bit unlucky with dice rolls. But of course this depends a bit on the available prestige. I would really consider tho changing your Ju87 to Bf100. Yes the Bf100 are worse at ground attack but the British tanks with a few exceptions are not that hard to kill and the Bf100 offer two big advantages. It can be used to mop up the leftover of enemy planes, even fighters, or attack bombers. This really helps as it allows you to get air superiority faster. Additionally if using in a bomber role you must protect your Ju87's all the time as a single attack from an enemy fighter that spawned as reinforcement may devastate it. Meanwhile you can let your Bf110, especially if experienced and overstrengthed, fly on their own. Weak enemy fighters don't even usually bother to attack them as the predictions are to bad for the AI. The strong ones well they can damage a Bf100 severly but should not kill it at least.
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