Building a historically authentic core/corps

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the_iron_duke
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Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:53 pm

I have decided to restart the Grand Campaign using a new formula for army organisation. My German army will represent a Panzerkorps consisting of 2-4 Panzer Divisions, the number of divisions increasing as the game progresses, along with attached units and aircraft.

A game unit will represent a regiment. A Panzer Division (by around 1940) was made up of one armoured regiment, two motorised/mechanized infantry regiments and an artillery regiment, so a Panzer Division will be represented by four units in the game. (The recon, engineer, anti-aircraft, anti-tank and motorcycle battalions of the Panzer Division are not represented as they are too small for this scale).

The number of Panzer Divisions will grow as the game progresses as the core unit allowance increases. My house rules will be that I must always field full Panzer Divisions (not cherry-pick units from each). The Panzer Division complement must always exceed 50% of my total ground units fielded.

The rest of the ground forces will be made up of independent attached units (tending to be heavy and specialist regiments) and I will be limited to possessing a maximum of two of each unit type.

I will be using the most historically commonly-used units rather than rare/experimental units.

So here is my core, along with the units available for selection:

2-4 Panzer Divisions each containing:

1 x Tank: Panzer I, II, III, IV, Panther - whichever is strongest
1 x Grenadier
1 x Wehrmacht Infantry
1 x Artillery: 15 cm sFH 18, Wespe, Hummel

Attached units:

0-2 recon: any recons
0-2 heavy artillery: 17 cm K 18, 21 cm Mrs 18
0-2 heavy anti-air: 8.8 cm FlaK 36, 12.8 cm FlaK 40

0-2 heavy tank: Tiger I, Tiger II
0-2 tank destroyer: Panzerjager I, StuG III, Nashorn, Jagdpanther (maximum of one Panzerjager I)
0-2 anti-tank (towed): any towed anti-tank

0-2 assault-gun: StuH 42, Brummbar (maximum of one Brummbar)
0-2 rocket launchers: towed Nebelwerfers, Panzerwerfer 42, Wurfrahmen 40 (maximum of one each of towed Nebelwerfers, Panzerwerfer 42, Wurfrahmen 40)
0-2 self-propelled anti-air: SdKfz 10/4, SdKfz 7/1 (maximum of one SdKfz 7/1)

0-2 engineers: Pioniere
0-2 paratroopers: Fallschirmjager
0-2 alpine troops: Gebirgsjager

0-2 cavalry: Kavallerie
0-2 motorcyclists: Kradschutzen
0-2 bridge engineer: Bruckenpioniere

Aircraft:

I have set some rules for aircraft to keep them balanced along historical lines.

0-4 fighters: Bf 109, Fw 190, Me 262A. (The number of Fw 190 must not exceed 50% of the fighters; the number of Me 262A must not exceed 50% of the fighters)

0-3 tactical bombers: Ju 87, Bf 110, Me 410A, Fw 190, Ar 234B. (Only one allowed of each of Me 410A and Ar 234B. The numbers of any unit type must not exceed 67% of the tactical bomber complement, unless there is only one tactical bomber)

0-3 strategic bombers: Do 17z, Ju 88A, He 111H2, He 177A, Do 217E, Ju 188A. (Only one allowed of each of He 177A, Do 217E, Ju 188A. The numbers of any unit type must not exceed 67% of the strategic bomber complement, unless there is only one strategic bomber)

Image

Regarding transport for the infantry, and whether they should be motorised (with Opel Blitz truck) or mechanized (with SdKfz 251/1 half-track). The theoretical Panzer Division (by the mid-late war) had one in four of their battalions mechanized and the other three battalions as motorised, which would mean half a unit out of the two infantry units in the game's Panzer Division at this scale would be mechanized. Things varied from the theoretical model in practise on the ground, although half-tracks were never used in great numbers. From wikipedia: "Of 226 panzergrenadier battalions in the whole of the German Army, Luftwaffe and Waffen SS in September 1943, only 26 were equipped with armoured half tracks, or just over 11 percent. The rest were equipped with trucks." (This number does include the many Panzergrenadier battalions of the Panzergrenadier Divisions, and I suspect that the Panzergrenadier units of the Panzer Divisions would have been greater priority in terms of vehicles and materiel than the Panzergrenadier Divisions). I did also read of one individual formation being fully mechanized but I can't find the source and I can't remember whether it was a Division or a Corps, but I suspect it was one particular division.

So in game terms, I think I will probably go for the Grenadier in each division being mechanized and the Wehrmacht Infantry being motorised. An alternative would be to have one division fully mechanized and the others motorised. The pionieres would more realistically be motorised - the theoretical model has them as 1/3 of a unit mechanized - but I might make them mechanized. After all, this Panzerkorps can be considered the Heer's most pre-eminent since it will be taking a lead role in all the major engagements of the war!

I have also modelled the Panzer Division at other scales (rather than game unit = regiment = 4 units). Regarding a game unit as a battalion produces a Panzer Division of 13 game units. It is possible to zoom further in, regarding a game unit as a single company which produces a Panzer Division of 52 units. I think that using the scale of a game unit as a regiment will work best for the single-player campaign as it has greater flexibility and also means one can ignore most of the light and light-medium versions of units (like artillery, anti-tank and anti-air) and thus build a stronger core.

For keeping track of the units I will use the following naming conventions: the Panzer Division units will start with a number prefix ('1.', '2.' etc); the attached units will start with a 'U.' for 'Unterstellt' (meaning 'attached/subordinate', although 'H.' for 'Heerestruppen' would be an alternative); the aircraft will have the prefix 'L.' for 'Luftwaffe'.

Does anyone know how the core slot allowance increases over the Grand Campaign scenarios?
Last edited by the_iron_duke on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:29 am, edited 5 times in total.

Horseman
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Horseman » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:07 pm

The easiest way to check how the core slots go is to open the editor up and check the 1st and last scenario of each year....

I like this idea and I normally try and keep to some sort of "historical" organisation when building up my core....my 1st play through of the original campaign had each game unit represent a Regiment (as per my AAR) as I also thought this seemed about right though my Divisions technically had way too many tanks and artillery!

What are you going to do with SE units? Incorporate them into your formations as they appear or keep them as attached units or something entirely different?

Also are you going to keep hold of the special hero units or disband them or something else?

Good luck

EDIT: IIRC if you follow the eastern DLC your core will max out around about 40 slots + SE units

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:13 pm

I only have the first two Grand Campaign expansions so I don't know how the core will increase beyond that.

SE units will be attached. They had their own formations and I haven't read of any being organically incorporated within Panzer Divisions.

No idea about special hero units.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Horseman » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Ok had a quick check for you.....

DLC42east will see you start with 32 core slots and end with 37 (+5SE)
DLC43east will see you start with 38 and end with 40 (+6SE)
DLC44east sees a drop to 33 core slots rising to 37 in the end (+7SE)
DLC45 starts with 34 core slots (+8SE) and the very last mission Epilogue sees you with 10 core slots! (+5SE)

So yeah 40 will be the peak plus your SE units

And it does depend on your take on SE units...are they SS or just elite Heer? I've gone both ways - my only complete play through of the GC I formed an SE Division and other times I just use them as elite Heer formations incorporated into normal divisions

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:06 pm

Horseman wrote:Ok had a quick check for you.....
Thanks for checking. The system will work well I think with those numbers.
Horseman wrote:And it does depend on your take on SE units...are they SS or just elite Heer?
They are undoubtedly SS in my eyes. I shall consider them as separate from my corps core for the purposes of my house rules.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by fliegenderstaub » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:33 pm

It really sounds interesting - and challenging (for you don't have that much tanks as usual).

I think I will give it a try starting with GC 39.

But I have a few questions. How about the SS units. In general SS divisions were organized similar to Heer divisons. The differences don't play a role at this scale I guess. So ,what's missing is SS artillery.

The other factor is the randomness of getting SE units. So maybe one could use the SE units not organized as divisions but as attached independent units.

In the West starting with GC 42/43 you start with a mixed core even if you choose the units yourself. And the reinforcements will be difficult to integrate into this system. I assume that winning the western scenarios with less tanks will be rather hard.

But we will see... ;)
...and like the once-mighty Mahi-Mahi, you will end
up on a poo-poo platter in the Tikki Hut of life! -Al Bundy -

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:55 pm

The Waffen-SS had brigades as well as divisions and corps, and also independent heavy panzer battalions so I'll just use them as they come as bonus independent formations.

Before I start the campaign, any recommendations for difficulty level? I was thinking of going for Field Marshal (level 5 of the 5 regular difficulty levels). Will I stand a chance? I definitely want to play at A.I. level 2, so it's going to be General or Field Marshal difficulty level.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Lut » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Hi horseman,

first of all I really enjoy reading your AARs - very nice job!

I am not absolutly sure but I think you can field more than 40 (+6) units at Prokorovkha - but maybe I remember wrong.
DLC43east will see you start with 38 and end with 40 (+6SE)
Cheers

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Horseman » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:31 pm

For difficulty I'd say Field Marshall is fine...the only difference between that and general is that your units will only earn xp at half rate...not a big deal with xp caps in the DLCs!!!

Don't forget with 1.2 (or 1.21) you can change difficulty between scenarios..plus what rule set are you going to use? 1.2 or 1.14?

I think there are pro's and cons to both.

1.2 will make you infantry stronger as the xp bonus is far better for them in 1.2 but will make over strengthing units harder as it gets progressively more expensive
Lut wrote:Hi horseman,

first of all I really enjoy reading your AARs - very nice job!
Thanks Lut
Last edited by Horseman on Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:59 pm

Thanks for the difficulty-level info. I'll play at Field Marshal level using 1.20 rules then.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by boredatwork » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:30 am

Depending upon whether you're playing GCEast or West you might find that 4(+2) tanks is too low. The GCEast is tank heavy so you may wish at the very least to let infantry continue to represent Regiments but tanks represent battalions to give you twice as many.

Attached is my own effort at building a "historically authentic" Panzer Corps at a 1 unit =~ 1 Bn scale. I stick to a 3 Bn PzRegiment throughout the war (again tank heavy scenarios).

Image

I took the liberty of creating some matching support units for my camouflaged division. I use the "prestige" & "all eqp" cheat codes to buy my full divisions by the end of 1939. I keep track of all the bonus prestige I've given myself and gradually pay it back in installments by 1942. I also use the +/- core cheat to either deploy my entire SE division (without increasing the total units per scenario) or deploy an equivalent number of normal units in place of the allowed bonus units.

In the early scenarios I deploy complete brigades - by 1941 I have room to deploy 2 divisions and 1943 all 3. I'm reading the combat history of the 23rd PzDiv at the moment and frequently whole battalions were temporarily consolidated due to losses so if I have to leave parts of divisions out (particularly if they were hit hard in the previous scenario) to make them "fit" it works for me.

In order to give adequate variety some of my units do double duty via custom equipment - the recon battalion combines an armored car switchable to a Kradschutzen (or later in the war a similar "fast infantry" unit using the SdKfz250 icon.) The I Battalion of the 1st PzGr Regiment has Halftracks, The II Battalion of the second Panzer Grenadier regiment has a StuG as a transport so it serves as both the StuG Bn as well as infantry Bn, the other 2 Bns and all artillery are truck born.

Although not strictly historical I made an air droppable artillery piece for my FJ brigade (P.S. Devs, please reinstate the ability to set scenario air transport via cheat codes!)

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Victor_K » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:48 am

@ the_iron_duke, let us know how you are doing as you progress through the DLC's.

I use a hybrid system. Currently in DLC 43, using 4 "divisions" comprising of 2 panzer units, 2 inf and 2 artillery (1 towed and 1 self propelled). I have an Independent group that varies in composition. My SE are grouped into one "division".

Picked up the idea from one of Horseman's AAR's.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:53 am

Since we are discussing Panzerkorps organisation, I cannot resist the opportunity to post my own Panzerkorps recreations in Panzer Corps! I've been doing a lot of research for my scenarios recently on Panzerkorps organisation and have been looking at many old intelligence archive documents (the details of which can be found in my scenarios thread).

The organisation of the Panzer Division evolved through the years 1939-45 and I've been concentrating on the 1944 Type formation. I have modelled the Division at two other scales (apart from the game unit = regiment = 4 units for a Panzer Division I have used above). The two other scales are: unit = battalion = 13 game unit Panzer Division; and unit = company = 52 unit Panzer Division. They are both pretty much exact translations of the intelligence documents for theoretical standard Panzer Divisions in terms of organisation and vehicles used.

Firstly, is a picture of a 1944 Panzerkorps I made for a scenario made up of three Panzer Divisions along with some attached units. (Technical notes: the 3.7 cm AA was chosen as it represents a mixture of 20mm, 37mm and 88mm guns. The 37mm is more equivalent to the AA batteries that the British, U.S. and Soviet divisions use and so I went with that for the Panzer Divisions and the heavy 88mm guns as corps-level or attached independent battalions. If I was going to make a more historical late-war scenario, and give the Allies air superiority, then I might have gone for the 88mm guns as divisional units. The exact recon model to use is also a bit moot.)

Image

Here is the same Panzerkorps showing their transport (note the extensive use of trucks).

Image

Here is the Panzer Division zoomed in even further so a game unit represents a company, making a 52 unit Panzer Division. Each individual box of three to four companies/batteries represents one of the game units at the previous game unit = battalion scale, and one can see the 13 battalion-sized units contained within (not counting the regimental support of one pioniere company and one self-propelled artillery company in each Panzergrenadier regiment, which are omitted for being too small for the battalion-level scale).

Image

Here's the same Panzer Division showing the transport usage.

Image

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:11 am

A long post on unit-naming:

I have done a bit of research on German Second World military naming conventions to give my units clearer organisation and more historical flavour.

Each unit's name will convey three bits of information:

a) Firstly, the unit's affiliation in the military structure. '1.' through to '4.' for the Panzer Divisions, 'H.' for Heerestruppen for the attached/corps-level units and 'L.' for the Luftwaffe air force. Here are a couple of bits of information on the term Heerestruppen:
Heerestruppen – literally: army troops. Independent battalions with specialised support functions. These could be assigned temporarily to support a formation. In North Africa they primarily included artillery units, such as coastal and super-heavy artillery, and Beobachtungsabteilung 11 (a counter battery observation battalion). Panzerjaegerabteilung 605 with its self-propelled ATGs was also Heerestruppe. The existence of these units gave the German army considerable flexibility in responding to needs along wide frontages.
http://rommelsriposte.com/2009/08/17/a- ... nit-names/
"The heavy tank units with their Tigers...were not integral divisional units but came under the category of 'Heerestruppen': units allotted to the armies, corps and divisions according to requirements as was standard German practice"
http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/toe-wo ... -infodata/

b) Following this will be an abbreviation of the unit's role in German. This old intelligence document has been quite helpful: http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/mlw/Ge ... ations.pdf . Sometimes there are several ways listed of abbreviating a unit so I've included the various alternatives. Heavy units used 's.' or 'schw.' before the abbreviation (short for schwere).

So here is a summary of the game units and their German military abbreviations:

Tank/Armour - Panzer - Pz.
Panzer Division infantry - Panzergrenadier - Pz.Gr. (or Pz.Gren.)
Panzer Division armoured artillery - Panzer-Artillerie - Pz.Art.

Recon - Aufklarung - Aufkl.
Heavy artillery - schwere Artillerie - s.Art. (or schw.Art.)
Heavy anti-aircraft - schwere Flugzeugabwehr - s.Flak. (or schw.Flak.)

Heavy tank - schwere Panzer - s.Pz. (or schw.Pz.)
Tank destroyer - Panzerjager - Pz.Jg. (for Panzerjager I, StuG III)
Heavy tank destroyer - schwere Panzerjager - s.Pz.Jg. (or schw.Pz.Jg.) (for Nashorn, Jagdpanther)
Anti-tank (towed) - Panzerabwehrkanone - Pak.

Assault-gun - Sturmgeschutz - Stu.G.
Rocket-launcher - Nebelwerfer - Werf. (or Nb.W.) (I'll use Nb.W for Nebelwerfer, Werf. for Panzerwerfer, Wurfrahmen)
Self-propelled anti-aircraft - Flugzeugabwehr-Selbstfahrend/Selbstfahrlafette - Flak.Sf. (or Flak.Sfl.)

Combat engineer - Pionier - Pion. (or Pi.)
Paratrooper - Fallschirmjager - Fschm.Jg. (or Fschm.Jag., Fallsch.Jg., Fallsch.Jag.)
Alpine troops - Gebirgsjager - Gbg.Jg. (or Gb.Jg., Gb.Jag., Gbg.Jag., Geb.Jg., Geb.Jag.)

Bridge-engineer - Pionierbrucken - Pi.Br.
Motorcyclist - Kradschutzen - Krad. (or Kradsch.)
Cavalry - Kavallerie - Kav.

c) The last part of a unit's name will be it's unique regiment number. Maybe I'll use the numbers they are given, make some up or take some historical numbers from the internet.

So the 1st Panzer Division's four units might be named something like:

1. Pz. 17
1. Pz.Gr. 39
1. Pz.Gr. 104
1. Pz.Art. 55

An attached heavy tank destroyer unit would be something along the lines of: H. s.Pz.Jg. 132

For SE units, I will use the designation 'W.' for Waffen-SS. SS units were abbreviated with the affixation 'SS-' before the unit abbreviation, so an SE heavy tank unit, for example, would be: W. s.SS-Pz. 101.

Now on to aircraft. The aircraft units at this scale represent a Gruppe. Gruppen were organised within a larger formation called the Geschwader. The aircraft in each Geschwader all performed the same role so the fighters, tactical and strategic bombers in the game core would technically all be sub-units of different larger Geschwader rather than belonging to the same formation.

The selected aircraft in the game belong to the following Geschwader types:
wikipedia wrote:-Jagdgeschwader (JG) – A day fighter Geschwader (literally "hunting wing"), typically equipped with Messerschmitt Bf 109 or Fw 190 aircraft flying in the fighter or fighter-bomber roles.

-Zerstörergeschwader (ZG) – Zerstörer (literally "destroyer", as in naval destroyer). These units were usually equipped with twin-engined heavy fighters such as the Bf 110 or Me 410 Hornisse .

-Schlachtgeschwader (SchlG, since 1943 SG) – Schlacht (German: "strike") These were ground attack or close air support Geschwader, initially equipped with the biplane Hs 123, later with Hs-129, fighter-bomber variants of Bf 109, and ground-attack variants of Fw 190.

-Sturzkampfgeschwader (StG; Stuka Geschwader) – dive bomber Geschwader equipped mainly with Ju 87; on 18 October 1943, most of them were re-designated Schlachtgeschwader (SG).[28]

-Kampfgeschwader (KG) – literally combat wing, primarily a medium bomber unit, with typical aircraft being the He 111 and the Junkers Ju 88.

Below is a summary of the different Geschwader the selected game units would have appeared in.

Bf 109: JG
Fw 190 (fighter versions): JG
Me 262A: JG

Ju 87: StG (SG from Oct '43)
Bf 110: ZG
Me 410A ZG
Fw 190 (tactical bomber versions): SG
Ar 234B: KG

Ju 88A: KG
He 111H2: KG
He 177A: KG
Do 217E: KG
Ju 188A: KG

From wikipedia: "Gruppen organized within a combat wing were designated with Roman numerals: I, II, III and IV. This would be combined with the abbreviated Geschwader designation – for example, the second Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 11 would be designated II./JG 11." Since all the aircraft in each Geschwader performed the same role, the aircraft in the game can be considered to be coming from four or five different Geschwader.

So here is an example of how the core air complement might be named:

L. I./JG 5 - Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighter
L. II./JG 5 - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. III./JG 5 - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. IV./JG 5 - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter

L. I./SG 10 - Focke-Wulf Fw 190F tactical bomber
L. I./ZG 26 - Messerchmitt Bf 110G tactical bomber
L. I./StG 3 - Junkers Ju 87D tactical bomber

L. I./KG 6 - Junkers Ju 88A strategic bomber
L. II./KG 6 - Junkers Ju 88A strategic bomber
L. III./KG 6 - Heinkel He 111H2 strategic bomber

There are the real Geschwader numbers on this page if you want to be even more authentic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Luftwaffe_Wings

(Note: the Ar 234B didn't see a lot of bombing service but I included it as it appears late in the war only in time for the final scenarios. Might not use it - I'll see how I get along.)
Last edited by the_iron_duke on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:42 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:08 pm

boredatwork wrote:Depending upon whether you're playing GCEast or West you might find that 4(+2) tanks is too low. The GCEast is tank heavy so you may wish at the very least to let infantry continue to represent Regiments but tanks represent battalions to give you twice as many.
I'll see how I get along. By the time of GC: East I should have 3-4 divisional tanks, 2 Tiger I heavy tanks, 2 Nashorn heavy tank destroyers and perhaps some SE tanks. The 88mm FlaK 36s will also help on the anti-tank front.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by ThvN » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:14 pm

the_iron_duke wrote: I'm not entirely sure about the self-propelled anti-air units. It could be:

Kz.Flak - Kraftzug-Flugzeugabwehr - motorized antiaircraft
Kw.Flak - Kraftwagen-Flugzeugabwehr - motorized antiaircraft
Hello, it's me again :mrgreen:. I don't think Kraftwagen or Kraftzug were used, not 100% sure, but I can't remember seeing a document using those. It would also designate towed Flak, not self-propelled. The 'motorized' component in those designations would be the towing vehicle, not the Flak gun.

There are two 'official' designations for self-propelled. The first is Selbstfahrend (Sf.), meaning 'self-propelled/self-moving'. The second one is seen in descriptions of equipment, like, "cannon x auf Selbstfahrlafette (Sfl.) y". This means 'on self-propelled mount', because when a gun was mounted on several different chassis it would be nice to know if it was an old French tank chassis or German halftrack when ordering parts. So in designations, first came the gun, than (Sf) or (Sfl) to show it was self-propelled.

For prime movers, designations would be Lastkraftwagen (Lkw) meaning truck/lorry, Zugkraftwagen (Zgkw) was used to designate halftracks for towing equipment. For ordinary vehicles 'Kraftfahrzeug' (Kfz) (powered vehicle) would be used, while special equipment designations used 'Sondern Kraftfahrzeug' (Sd.Kfz.).

If you want to name a Flak battery as 'towed', you can use 'xx FlaK Zug'. Zug is German for 'pull' (examples: Zugkraft = pulling power, Zugmaschine = prime mover, tractor unit).
Rocket-launcher - Raketenwerfer - Rak or Rak.W
'Rakete' was used for bazooka-like weapons or aircraft rockets. Army rocket artillery were 'Nebelwerfer (NbW)', later (1943-1944) simply called 'Werfer (Werf)'.

While this seemingly doesn't make sense, because 'Nebel' means smoke/fog and and 'Werfer' means mortar (lit.: thrower), it was a cover designation from the good old how-do-we-dodge-Versailles days: the German army wasn't allowed any rocket weapons by the treaty, so they used the cover designations of 'smoke mortar' to conceal its purpose. It became the common name and was later simplified a bit.

The only exception was the '8cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer' (rocket multiple thrower), which was not an army weapon but developed by the Waffen-SS as a copy of the Soviet M-8 Katyusha. The name was probably a result from NIHS. :)

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:10 pm

The Kz.Flak and Kw.Flak abbreviations came from the intelligence document linked to above.

The same document also includes:

Sfl - Selbstfahrlafette - self-propelled mount

So this would appear to be more appropriate, as you have suggested, and I've amended the previous post. Since there are only two anti-aircraft types being used they shall be:

s.Flak. - heavy anti-aircraft
Flak.Sfl. or Flak.Sf.- self-propelled anti-aircraft

Since it would be the norm for anti-aircraft to be towed, I won't bother with a Lorry or Halftrack designation (although modelling the units at a different scale they'd be more appropriate). Self-propelled anti-aircraft formations at regimental size are a bit unrealistic but they are useful units so it would probably be churlish to exclude them.

I have re-named the rocket-launcher units as Nb.W. units.

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:26 pm

I've been wondering whether to include the final full-stop after the unit role abbreviation (because that's the level of detail/pedantry I deal in) and I think it's better to include it.

It should also be noted that on real lists the unit size would also be included after the unit role abbreviation (e.g. Abt., Rgt., Btl.) but I haven't included it as: a) it's a bit redundant since all the game units are supposed to be roughly the same size; b) to save space; c) so it doesn't draw attention to historical anomalies, like the heavy tank units were battalion size rather than regimental, so in the game they might represent a couple of battalions brigaded together.

Here's a historical example of the abbreviations for the 6th Panzer Division:

6 Pz.D. Generalmajor von Hunersdorff: Pz.Rgt. 11, Pz.Gr.Rgt. 4, 114., Pz.Art.Rgt. 76, Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 6, Pz.Jg.Abt. 41, Pz.Pi.Btl. 57, Flak.Abt. 298

(note: only the four regimental-size units are included in the game at this scale. Also note that the Flak unit doesn't have a 'Pz.' designation, and they are described as Heeres-Flak-Artillerie. I think that, although they were organically integrated into the Panzer Division organisational structure, they were technically part of another arm, possibly the Luftwaffe, although ThvN will be able to clarify!)

Also, I think 'Werf.' is better than 'Nb.W' for the rocket-launcher units.

ThvN
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by ThvN » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:07 pm

Well, thanks for the confidence :mrgreen: .

Virtually all FlaK units were part of the Luftwaffe, and retained their own command structure, even though they could be attached to army (Heer) units. The German army (Heer) also had its own FlaK units, but these were mostly automatic weapons (20 and 37mm, although some had 88mm). Rougly 90% of anti-aircraft artillery was controlled by the Luftwaffe.

The extra problem you see here is that although Heeres-Flakartillerie are army units, they are still in their own branch. There was a similar situation with the Sturmgeschütze, they belonged to the artillery arm, complicating the chain of command.

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:31 am

ThvN wrote:Well, thanks for the confidence :mrgreen: .
We are like the classic Milan defence - I, as Costacurta, attack the ball and you, as Baresi, sweep up! :)

I've made some small modifications to the independent/attached Heeresgruppen for my historical core composition formula:

0-2 Tank destroyer - I've added Panzerjager I as they operated in independent battalions. I think the Marders were divisional and so are not applicable. StuG IIIs were used in a lot of formations and I think that included in independent abteilung so I think that they should be included. So that would make a Panzerjager I - StuG III - Nashorn - Jagdpanther chain for tank destroyers. Maximum of one Panzerjager I.

0-2 Self-propelled anti-aircraft - SdKfz 10/4, SdKfz 7/1 (maximum of one SdKfz 7/1)

0-2 rocket-launchers - maximum of one each of towed Nebelwerfer, Panzerwerfer and Wurfrahmen.

I've been looking through some more army documents and have added a couple more categories for Heeresgruppen units for selection: assault gun (Stu.G.) and anti-tank, towed (Pak.)

0-2 Assault Gun - StuH 42, Brummbar (maximum of one Brummbar)
0-2 Anti-tank - any towed anti-tank

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