Building a historically authentic core/corps

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Andreh
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Andreh » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:06 pm

I liked the limited specifics units core we had in PG3 a lot. I wonder if your proposed organization could be implemented in the game through some script? That would make things easier and prevent the urge to just bend the rules a little for this one :).

An historical question. Were that organization rigid through war, or in specific campaigns, like Barbarossa the divisions would have more tanks?

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:41 pm

They generally follow the standard, from what I can tell, but there are variations. They are more at the smaller battalion-sized level, though, than the larger regimental level and so are less applicable for adding units to the division at the regimental-scale being used for the core.

There is also the fact that the standardized organisation of the Panzer Division changed throughout the war. In 1939 there were two tank regiments and one motorised infantry regiment, and there were further changes until 1941 when the standard became one tank and two motorised infantry regiments. I think it's simpler in game terms to take the 1941-1945 organisation from the start.

The situation would be more complicated if using the battalion = game unit scale for the core as there were more battalion-level changes going on - for example, the earlier Panzer Divisons had organic motorcycle battalions, which are lacking later in the war.

Wikipedia summarises the changes well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_div ... rld_War_II

The Panzer Divisions are like the flour and it is the attached units that provide the flavour ingredients to the cake. So if you want to make a powerful tank cake to defeat an enemy you add extra portions of independent heavy tank and heavy tank destroyer battalions to the mix. Or something like that.

Since I've added towed anti-tank (Pak.), and to a lesser extent assault gun (Stu.G.), attached unit categories there are more of ways of strengthening the core for anti-armoured duties.

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:31 pm

Horseman wrote: Also are you going to keep hold of the special hero units or disband them or something else?
Personally, I'm disbanding them as I think they are rather over-powered (e.g. Oleh Dir's double movement).

Horseman
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Horseman » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:35 pm

the_iron_duke wrote:
Horseman wrote: Also are you going to keep hold of the special hero units or disband them or something else?
Personally, I'm disbanding them as I think they are rather over-powered (e.g. Oleh Dir's double movement).
I agree some of them are waaaaay over the top!!

On my 1st play through I kept them for the most part..next time I might use the scenario editor to tone them down a bit

rezaf
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by rezaf » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:56 am

I agree some of the heroes are OP, but I still love 'em. Especially the fighting Rudel with his ridiculous +9 attack AND defense. Even he's a only drop of water on a hot stone in the later Barbarossa DLCs.

I wish the game had actual scripting capabilities, the metagame could be SO MUCH more, like a RPGish system for developing your heroes, or tweaking of your tanks WoT-style, or a PG3-like "steered" core like Andreh sain. Alas, it's not to be.

I don't remember which game had it (I don't think it was a PG game), but there was one that had a system PzC could have benefitted from and that is fairly simple: have "weighted" core slot costs.
You could have the OP hero take three core slots when deploying but a recon unit only take 0.25, a decked out Tiger 2 slots but a Panzer IV in '44 only 0.5 slots - this way composing your corps of nothing but the best units wouldn't be so much a given as some people might opt for weaker, but far more numerous forces.

As it stands, I think in '43 or '44 the latest the DLCs won't be enjoyable with a remotely historical core, but I still applaud your effort to go ahead and try it. Report back ... in case you ever make it that far. :wink:
_____
rezaf

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:42 pm

I would have gone for my system with a core page with empty slots for all the divisions and attached categories. You would only be able to purchase appropriate units, so one couldn't buy Tigers for one's divisional tanks, for example, and there'd be a maximum of two for each attached unit type. It would make it historical and balanced.

As it is, Panzer Corps can feel at times a bit like a fantasy game, being to Second World War warfare what Lord of the Rings is to medieval warfare. Or closer to an arcade game than a war strategy game.

danijocker90
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by danijocker90 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:14 pm

I love this thread and i have done a little mod with your idea.

If you buy a new unit it has a name with the vanilla style "1st Unit Class" for example. but now the unit class is already changed with the "historical" name.

Code: Select all

[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pfIMOpes8tw/UrG4_Mi7ACI/AAAAAAAAAoA/7ned8YN4-_M/w747-h554-no/historical+1.jpg[/img]
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Lh0XNiQP3AU/UrG4_OPKTzI/AAAAAAAAAoc/jLxTe2YYtQA/w799-h599-no/historical+2.jpg[/img]
So, if you rename the unit and keep intact the class then ugrading the unit will keep the historical style names but auto-changing to the new unit type.

Code: Select all

[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FFPagCOUXnU/UrG4_yxLOlI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/TV3nciJmKVA/w778-h260-no/historical+3.jpg[/img]
[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ijs9mjcXIMs/UrG5AODTMkI/AAAAAAAAAoY/gEYGO1OTZpo/w805-h746-no/historical+4.jpg[/img]
[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vLHgwlUzRsE/UrG5AFYvLwI/AAAAAAAAAok/niJmSZVRnDE/w337-h517-no/historical+5.jpg[/img]
An example with a panzer

Code: Select all

[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dK7eiNtidjk/UrG5AvlubaI/AAAAAAAAAos/11Bn4nFfAbM/w1024-h768-no/historical+7.jpg[/img]
[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hzE2piJ8o_g/UrG5BLzDBzI/AAAAAAAAAo4/9YvlrpsVsgU/w1024-h768-no/historical+8.jpg[/img]
[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NZU9JCoiTlg/UrG5BmG60ZI/AAAAAAAAAo8/HguzlsAAYbs/w1024-h768-no/historical+9.jpg[/img]
And a huge army...

Code: Select all

[img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PkLuIARnFXc/UrG4_TXcCvI/AAAAAAAAAoM/1nFcBk4NS2I/w1328-h864-no/historical+10.jpg[/img]
Equipment file edited:
equipment.zip
(37.55 KiB) Downloaded 195 times
:wink:

EDIT: Since this mod not was a very good idea i hide the pictures to save space. I dont delete the link because someone maybe want to test or play with it.
Last edited by danijocker90 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

the_iron_duke
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by the_iron_duke » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:07 pm

I'm glad you have found the thread useful. Here are some comments, beginning with the tactical component information I have used:

1. - 1st Division
2. - 2nd Division
3. - 3rd Division
H. - Heerestruppen
W. - Waffen-SS
L. - Luftwaffe

These bits of information are not historically part of a unit's name but I included them as a way of easily distinguishing between the tactical components of one's army. Therefore, I think it's better to have a space after the number/letter to separate it from the actual unit name.

Also, I think it's more accurate to have a space between the unit name and regiment/battalion number.

So for example, W. SS-Gbg.Jg. 22

Historically, the unit name would have been (at regiment level) something like SS-Gbg.Jg.Rgt. 22 (I'm not too sure on Gebirgsjager organisation as I haven't really used them much in my scenarios). The W. is for in-game organisation rather than historical usage, so I recommend the space to separate it. The same goes for H. for Heerestruppen and the other designations. If you were going down the route of altering the base unit names in the equipment file then I would omit the W. and H. etc altogether.

I think there is also a danger in renaming the units in the equipment file as you lose information on the units - for example, is it a Panzer IVH or a Panzer IVJ? A Bf 109G or Bf 109K? You also end up with the unit description and the unit name saying pretty much the same thing.

As an aside, here is an example of a Panzerkorps of three Panzer Divisions from one of my 1944 scenarios. It is organised at battalion-level rather than the regiment-level I have advocated in this thread for single-player campaign.

GERMAN FORCES

[1.] 1st Panzer Division

1st Panzer Regiment:

1. I./Pz. 1 - Panther G tank
1. II./Pz. 1 - Panzer IVJ tank

4th Panzergrenadier Regiment:

1. I./Pz.Gr. 4 - Grenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
1. II./Pz.Gr. 4 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

7th Panzergrenadier Regiment:

1. I./Pz.Gr. 7 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. II./Pz.Gr. 7 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

10th Panzer Artillery Regiment:

1. I./Pz.Art. 10 - Wespe self-propelled artillery
1. II./Pz.Art. 10 - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1. III./Pz.Art. 10 - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery

Divisional support:

1. Pz.Aufkl. 13 - SdKfz 234/1 8Rad recon
1. Pz.Jg. 16 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1. Flak. 19 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
1. Pz.Pi. 22 - Pioniere 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) engineer

[2.] 2nd Panzer Division

2nd Panzer Regiment:

2. I./Pz. 2 - Panther G tank
2. II./Pz. 2 - Panzer IVJ tank

5th Panzergrenadier Regiment:

2. I./Pz.Gr. 5 - Grenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
2. II./Pz.Gr. 5 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

8th Panzergrenadier Regiment:

2. I./Pz.Gr. 8 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. II./Pz.Gr. 8 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

11th Panzer Artillery Regiment:

2. I./Pz.Art. 11 - Wespe self-propelled artillery
2. II./Pz.Art. 11 - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
2. III./Pz.Art. 11 - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery

Divisional support:

2. Pz.Aufkl. 14 - SdKfz 234/1 8Rad recon
2. Pz.Jg. 17 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
2. Flak. 20 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
2. Pz.Pi. 23 - Pioniere 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) engineer

[3.] 3rd Panzer Division

3rd Panzer Regiment:

3. I./Pz. 3 - Panther G tank
3. II./Pz. 3 - Panzer IVJ tank

6th Panzergrenadier Regiment:

3. I./Pz.Gr. 6 - Grenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3. II./Pz.Gr. 6 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

9th Panzergrenadier Regiment:

3. I./Pz.Gr. 9 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. II./Pz.Gr. 9 - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

12th Panzer Artillery Regiment:

3. I./Pz.Art. 12 - Wespe self-propelled artillery
3. II./Pz.Art. 12 - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
3. III./Pz.Art. 12 - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery

Divisional support:

3. Pz.Aufkl. 15 - SdKfz 234/1 8Rad recon
3. Pz.Jg. 18 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
3. Flak. 21 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
3. Pz.Pi. 24 - Pioniere 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) engineer

[H.] Attached units [Heerestruppen/Unterstellt]:

Independent heavy tank battalion:

H. s.Pz. 25 - Tiger II heavy tank

Werfer battalion:

H. Werf. 26 - Panzerwerfer 42 self-propelled rocket-launcher

Heavy artillery regiment:

H. I./s.Art. 27 - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery
H. II./s.Art. 27 - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery

Armoured car battalion:

H. Aufkl. 28 - SdKfz 222 recon

Heavy anti-aircraft regiment:

H. I./s.Flak. 29 - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air
H. II./s.Flak. 29 - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air

Bridge engineer abteilung:

H. Pi.Br. 30 - Bruckenpioniere (w/ Opel Blitz truck) bridge engineer

Fallschirmjager regiment:

H. I./Fschm.Jg. 31 - Fallschirmjager 43 paratrooper
H. II./Fschm.Jg. 31 - Fallschirmjager 43 paratrooper

[L.] Aircraft [Luftwaffe]:

Fighters:

L. 1./JG 32 Jagd. - Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighter
L. 2./JG 32 Jagd. - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 3./JG 32 Jagd. - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter

Tactical bombers/fighter-bombers:

L. 1./ZG 33 Jabo. - Messerchmitt 410A fighter-bomber
L. 2./SG 34 Jabo. - Focke-Wulf Fw 190F fighter-bomber
L. 3./SG 34 Jabo. - Focke-Wulf Fw 190F fighter-bomber

Strategic bombers:

L. 1./KG 35 Bomb. - Junkers Ju 88A bomber
L. 2./KG 35 Bomb. - Heinkel He 111H2 bomber

danijocker90
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by danijocker90 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:43 pm

I know, but the game its very hardcoded so not an easy mod. Anyway i did it after losing some time renaming my first core and wanting an easy way to do it as well for auxiliary units etc.

Only thing i can think to do it better with the problem of versions its adding a letter to the name, dunno how well can be finally. Already done with some important units like the Hummel, for example, Pz.Art.Sf.H. that H helps...

For the spaces between letters, for saving space because some units get huge names :/

Mainly its a mod for me :P but if people like it i think that can change some things, its not tested so dont know if even me would like it after having to upgrade 4 versions of Pz IV xD

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by KeldorKatarn » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:16 am

I find this thread very interesting. I have one question for the people describing their core layout here:

How did this layout work out across the different campaigns? Was it a DLC layout, and how did you build it up? Did you do similar things for the shorter campaigns?

Thanks.
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Anfield
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Anfield » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:27 am

Ive been using this sort of set up since first playing PC. For the Allied Corps too. Only draw back is core limit. Infantry divisions would get 3 regiments for both allies and germans, but thats hard to do when core is a limited number. Although by 43 the germans were running just 2 regiments many times from lack of men. However even a British Armor Division by D-Day would only be 1 tank, 1 infantry, 1 artillery unit.

As for does it get harder later in the war using a historical list, yes and no. I found it didnt for the allies, but did playing as the Germans in the DLC (the russiain tank horde). For AC I run 3 infantry divisions and one armor division, then support units. For the DLC, I just started started 41, I think ive got 2 infantry divisions, 1 PzGrn division, 1 FJ Division, 1 Pz Division and 1 SS Pz Division. I find the key is not to let your divisions fight alone, being ony 4-5 units is a small force. So I group them into 2-4 Army Groups.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by KeldorKatarn » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:45 pm

My core from the recent playthrough of DLCs 39-42:
core_1.jpg
core_1.jpg (107.1 KiB) Viewed 5099 times
core-2.jpg
core-2.jpg (106.24 KiB) Viewed 5099 times
core_3.jpg
core_3.jpg (154.72 KiB) Viewed 5099 times
Scroll the bottom one to see the Luftwaffe.
Despite not being a fan of having Waffen-SS in my game, I chose the LSSAH since it made somewhat sense, since that was the one starting as a bataillon, rising to division level. So I slowly built them up, completing them as a division with standard wehrmacht units in the Scenario before Moscow in '41.

I'm not sure if I'll stick to that in the future. Or if, then I might not build them up into a division.

I bought the 2nd Wehrmacht division in mid-39 and then played the rest of 39 with that one. starting with 40 I rotated 1st and 7th panzer division each scenario, LSSAH was always deployed. Luftwaffe units as needed, always deploying one entire JG, rotating both to build up experience.

I used captured tanks every now and then, but would probably not do that anymore in a repeated playthrough.

I was also thinking about using small nebelwerfer units or other very specialized small units that never existed on bataillon level and only use those on very small scale maps like the city maps, and then re-interpret the units and smaller scale, maybe companies.

I was also thinking about playing with the amulet mod, which incorporates a version of the Elite-Units mod. Not sure how that'll work. Make one of the divisions elite? Mix SE and Elite units to create the SS/Elite division? Not sure yet. But I'll probably go Bataillon/Geschwadergruppe scale again.
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KeldorKatarn
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by KeldorKatarn » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:07 pm

Did I kill the thread now? :P Too many pictures?
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Anfield
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by Anfield » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:09 am

Ive been playing the great US Maelstrom MOD, its gets around the issue if Regiment v Battalion by fielding battlion size divisional units at a stenght of 5. Might try the same thing on PC, you can use the cheat code to set a units strenght. Course again the core limit holds you back so would need to increase that some, but the payback is you would be fielding weakers units in some cases.

German infantry Divsion then looks something like this, with strenght numbers after.
Infantry Reg -10
Infantry Reg -10
Infantry Reg -10
Pionieres Batt -5
Artillery Batt-5
Artillery Batt-5
Artillery Batt-5
Artillery Batt -5
Recon Batt-5
ATG Batt-5
AA Batt-5

Be interesting to play thats for sure. However core limits makes it really not possible, youd have to reduce it more.

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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by gphotopoulos » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:32 pm

Updated this post since I installed the Elite units mod for my next playthrough, so the core composition changed.

I am trying to do the same thing, considering units to be battalions (and trying to keep the equipment close to what was historically available).

Based on the historical scenarios included in the GC, I chose the 3rd, 4th and 5th Pz Division from the Wehrmacht, as well as the LSSAH.In early campaigns (39 and 40), each Pz division has 2 wehrmacht infantry btns on trucks (historically it had 3 and 1 Kradschutzen Btn), 1 Pion Btn (I mount them on SPWs asap), 1 Recon Btn, 2 Art Btns (with 105mm towed guns) and one Panzerabwehr (AT) battalion. For GC 40, a 3rd Art Btn with 150mm guns is added to each Pz Div. For GC 41, a second infantry regiment (2 battalions) and 1 Flk Btn is added to each division.

I use SE units to represent Grossdeutchland Regiment (later division), an elite unit that took part in many of the battles depicted in the GC. In order to maintain historical accuracy that means selling off all SE units until Sedan, and reloading Sedan until I get an infantry unit (any type, I convert it to Wehrmacht Infantry with Opel Blitz).

Obviously, I have more units than I can field at 11 units per Pz Div plus the hero units and the air force, however that actually works out ok, since not all 3 divisions were historically present in all battles (for example the 4th Panzer was the only one present in the Low Countries, and the 5th Pz was the only one participating in the Balkans campaign). When I have some extra core slots but not enough for a second or third division, I field Kampfgruppen (1 Pz Btn, 2 Inf Btns, 1-2 Art Btns and Recon, Pion, AT and Flak if more slots are available). Also, the third Artillery battalion of the 3rd and 4th Panzer were originally units of indenpendent regiments (II./Art.R 49 and 93 respectively) that took part in the Polish campaign, so I use those to fill up the force in early scenarios as applicable.

Obviously, rotating units means that units get experience more slowly and heroes are fewer, and it also means that upgrading everything is not automatic, but that again simulates the historical situation quite well.

In my previous playthrough of the GC (I've played up to halfway through GC44 East), I started with a gamey tank and pioniere heavy army, and was already bored by GC 42 so I think that keeping the core force as "historical" as possible improves the game a lot, at least it does for me.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by KeldorKatarn » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:14 am

How do you guys actually build up these cores. It's fine to see the final core but early on you have to buy unit by unit and can't deploy that many. Do you start with one division, then add Air units until you can deploy the next division and buy it in bulk or do you keep adding unit by unit despite it not belonging to a finished division yet? Interested in your experiences.
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MartyWard
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by MartyWard » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:15 pm

KeldorKatarn wrote:How do you guys actually build up these cores. It's fine to see the final core but early on you have to buy unit by unit and can't deploy that many. Do you start with one division, then add Air units until you can deploy the next division and buy it in bulk or do you keep adding unit by unit despite it not belonging to a finished division yet? Interested in your experiences.
I think the game is designed to have you build a force over time but you can build and deploy any core you want with the cheat codes. The problem would be, for example, if you deployed a full strength panzer division with the best equipment at the beginning of the 1940 GC you would probably overwhelm the AI as it would not be set up to handle such a large strong force.

You could build a core and only deploy a portion to maybe simulate a regimental attack or a specific battle with support elements but balancing it would be hard. If you are a modder you could also adjust the AI forces to allow more challenge.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by KeldorKatarn » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:32 pm

if you build a core based on 1 unit = 1 bataillon then a panzer division wouldn't exactly be very strong.
Panzer Corps - Dossier Tool - http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=39151
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MartyWard
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by MartyWard » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:08 pm

KeldorKatarn wrote:if you build a core based on 1 unit = 1 bataillon then a panzer division wouldn't exactly be very strong.
Yes it would not be as strong as if each unit represented a platoon but it would be stronger than if each unit represented a regiment. The thing is it doesn't matter what each unit represents, if you deploy 35 units and the AI in a scenario is built to face 20 then it unbalances the scenario a bit unless you changes some of the unit values.

If you are a modder and can build platoons, battalions, regiments etc all with different max strength points or different attack/defense/initiative values then you could probably deploy more units than the AI was designed for though there would still be some gamey tactic that would be able to be used with lots of low strength units.

KeldorKatarn
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
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Re: Building a historically authentic core/corps

Post by KeldorKatarn » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:44 pm

That's not what I meant. I meant if you go for historical formations and the deployments slots are not enough to field 2 divisions yet then do you just deploy half or quarter divisions and slowly build them up or use the chance to build a large air force first and once the deployments slots are enough you immediately buy the endtire 2nd division and reduce air strength again. I basically fielded 1 division + air + 1 regimental support group. By 1941 I noticed my air arm was too large and I didn't have enough units on the ground anymore so I grew the regiment into the full 2nd division buying about 10 units immediately to fill up that 4 unit regiment into a full division and reduced the air arm and fielded only a few places with the remaining deployment spots.

Or to put it differently, the question is: If your plan is to eventually deploy 3 historically roughly accurate 'divisions' of about 13 units each (unit = btl) then how do you grow your startup core into that final core. In what order do you buy things.
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