"Actual" sizes for various units?

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aster
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"Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by aster » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:59 pm

A few of the recent threads (especially the pretty informative "Historically Authentic Cores" one) have got me thinking - despite the abstraction of PzC and its predecessors, how do you generally visualize your units far as size and military hierarchy goes?

The fact that some of them are extremely specific would lead one to lean towards each unit being a smaller formation (regimental or battalion), but the scope of many (not all) battles would hint at divisional sizes where you're controlling half a million or more troops in the scenario. You could designate the more specialized units as smaller, but this isn't really borne out by the game's relative combat strengths. Normally I'd say "Best not think about it too much and just enjoy the game's broadness, there's always HOI3 if you want to melt your brain thru micromanagement", but since others were playing around with the authentic-ish cores just thought I'd ask what ballparks you guys like to use.

Apologies if someone already listed this somewhere, if so this newb didn't see it...

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:00 am

I see the units as divisions, and that is how they are modelled in my WWI mod. However, many people think of them as regiments. The level of abstraction makes it impossible to tell for sure.

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tj4t11z3ttl142w/SCACW.zip/file

ThorHa
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by ThorHa » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:05 pm

Only unit size that makes any sense is bataillon, given the equal basic strength of armour, artillery and AA (10). Everything above does not make sense at all - there where no AC units or AA units in regimental size.

Regards,
Thorsten

aster
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by aster » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:27 pm

ThorHa wrote:Everything above does not make sense at all
That seems a little harsh. Maybe from historic relative unit sizes it doesn't make sense, but neither does the battalion concept in the context of many scenarios. Kiev, Moscow, etc (original campaign), there's no way those offensives at the scale they're depicted are conducted by battalion strength units.

I think that sorta answers my question tho - too many contradictions so best just sit back and enjoy the game. :)

And BiteNibbleChomp, oh how I wish I could play your WWI mod. Alas, I'm stuck on the iPad. At least I've got Commander: The Great War available on my to-play list now.

MartyWard
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by MartyWard » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:41 pm

ThorHa wrote:Only unit size that makes any sense is bataillon, given the equal basic strength of armour, artillery and AA (10). Everything above does not make sense at all - there where no AC units or AA units in regimental size.

Regards,
Thorsten
No even battalions don't make sense. There were roughly 17-19 battalions in a panzer division and 14-16 in an infantry division, depending on how you count the smaller detachments included in each. That would be ~33 core units if you had 1 of each. You get 50 core units in Berlin. Are we to think that German would defend Berlin with the equivalent of less than 3 divisions, assuming you had at least a handful of air unit? That the assault on Stalingrad was done by 2?

The unit size is one of those things you just need to gloss over and enjoy the game. :)

bebro
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by bebro » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:04 am

Yeah, to me it's not important either. There's obviously a bunch of players (like in that "authentic core/corps thread") who enjoy something more specific. Well, playing is all about fun, and if this increases their fun factor, more power to them.

But I doubt that you get really a system that makes always sense here, esp. not with campaigns including scns of wildly different magnitude. And to me this isn't even needed to enjoy the game.

I take two main approaches - either I just build a core that get's the job done best, or I impose some limits for historic/roleplaying reasons (like no overuse of Tiger/Kingtiger etc). Works for me.

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:12 pm

bebro wrote:Yeah, to me it's not important either.
Ultimately that is why they're always called 'units', unlike HoI 3 where everything is 'division', 'corps' etc. If people want to call them regiments, just let them. Then everyone is happy :D
aster wrote:And BiteNibbleChomp, oh how I wish I could play your WWI mod. Alas, I'm stuck on the iPad. At least I've got Commander: The Great War available on my to-play list now.
I wish you could as well. But then again, is $20 too much to spend for the PC version, keeping in mind how many mods are out there? (I'm not the only one to release them!) Or even better, get it in the next -75% off everything Steam sale that will come at Christmas. God knows how many games people have got huge bargains for then!

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tj4t11z3ttl142w/SCACW.zip/file

wargovichr
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Re: "Actual" sizes for various units?

Post by wargovichr » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:02 pm

That's what I been sayin'. Small unit TACTICAL level combat with an army level STRATEGIC map.
Game might have been called "Kampfgruppe" and battle should be at a company/battalion level on a city sized map. There are hundreds of such battles well documented and would have allowed for MANY battles/scenarios and a near endless game path.
The present Panzer Corps game has excellent mechanics and playability but is a somewhat awkward blend of tactical/strategic play---for wow factor and sales I guess (?).

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