German Elefants = BS

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v8cobra99
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German Elefants = BS

Post by v8cobra99 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:36 pm

Dear Slitherine. I have been a war history buff and your customer for a few years now. I finally want to say something about how you programmed the German Elefant Anti-Tanks. Your programmers could not have gotten those units more WRONG. Their analysis of those units are by far the worst. Maybe you need to consult Google and do some more research. Lets start with the facts on those. They were UTTER junk, designed by Porsche ...They were non-rolling mechanical break-down junk. Of the total qty 114 ever made, only a few ever saw any action. Due to their massive 70ton weight, they were slow and could not roll 5 miles without breakdowns, Fact. You programmed them to cost 600 pts. What BS !!! Their cost should be more like 1,500, especially since they were so expensive in real life, and especially at that time of the war. Next, they had zero defensive measures. Infantry should destroy or apply much more heavy damage on those regardless of terrain yet they only do 1 or 2 pts of damage in clear ground even with multiple infantry attacks. BS. Then, your Elefants run around the maps in advancing in attack modes as if they were M1A2 Abrams. They were freaking anti-tanks with no turrets... they should not be allowed to run and attack, without a turn of setup, because that would be more real....
Come on Slitherine... do some research.

v8cobra99
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by v8cobra99 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:58 pm

Other than the 1 forward machine gun as any close infantry defense, these crap Elefants should be easily destroyed by infantry, especially multiple infantry units. For that matter, any anti-tank, self propelled unit, similar to artillery, should be affected more by multiple infantry units attacking it. A simple maltaf cocktail or grenade can disable the tank...

Ursulet
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by Ursulet » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:28 pm

Well if you are not happy with the elefant performance, why dont you mod its stats?

sn0wball
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by sn0wball » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:28 pm

Generally, the game does not reflect the actual field performance of units, but mainly the theoretical statistics for a perfectly working units. Look about the first battlefield performances of the Panther, or the actual performance of the Tiger II. There are enough example from other nations as well. We are talking about a game where you can invade the USA with Maus tanks here. It wouldn´t be any fun if your units suffer from a sizeable chance to be destroyed everytime they are moved. Also, the prizes are always in relation to the prizes of other units and no to their real life prizes.

v8cobra99
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by v8cobra99 » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:28 pm

Snowball... I understand, its not meant to be fully realisitic and reflects optimum performance. I believe, most other units in the game are pretty well setup and fairly realistic. The scenarios are well done overall. I get it. But the elefants should cost more, and it should not be allowed to be so effective in a move and attack situation. The real elefants did well, in one battle in Kursk having a 10 to 1 kill ratio. But the Germans used them very very specifically... behind forward units, not allowing any infantry close to them, for a reason. They only have a 25 degree gun movement, so how can the programmers allow a SP gun to move 6 hexes, attacking another tank and whip it out.... its just not even close to real. The only reason the Elefants did well in the first place, the few that worked, is it has a 3-mile gun range, and at Kursk with nothing but wheat fields, that works. 2 infantry units attacking an elefant should kill it... easy. The ONLY reason the elefants went into battle is because Hitler loved them and favored Porsche, and they were some of the last resort weapons they could come up with. Their movement should be limited to 2-3 hexes and cost 1000 to 1500 pts.

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:40 pm

A Maus costs 1102, and I'm certain it was much easier to built a could of Elefants than a 200-ton Maus.
v8cobra99 wrote: The real elefants did well, in one battle in Kursk having a 10 to 1 kill ratio. But the Germans used them very very specifically... behind forward units, not allowing any infantry close to them, for a reason.
Players avoiding enemy infantry masses or close terrain is reasonably accurate, along with the 10:1 ratio. I've never seen a green Elefant take on an SU-152 without a river or something assisting it as well - just like it should be.

I can't remember what its fuel stat is, but any low fuel in the game (Tigers, Mause, Jagdtiger etc.) means that the unit is often breaking down.

If we assume that your army is the best supplied (which it must be if it is invading North America!), then I don't think things are too out of proportion. And plus, you can mod the game to suit your needs! (for me that involves having Mongol horse archers in some cases!)

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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by Razz1 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Game is set up for balance.

At one time we had the Elephant at 2 hex movement.

There were too many complaints as players could not use them. they never would reach the battle.
Remember each unit is a fighting group. So an Elephant icon is not just tanks. It's men motors machine guns and all the support that went with those regiments.

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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by bebro » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:04 pm

Re the point of cost, remember that PG/PzC has prestige points as some kind of "artificial" currency - it's not a real price in economic terms.

Since the OP makes a point about those units actually being bad requiring even more prestige to buy them seems not justified to me.

proline
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by proline » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:46 pm

v8cobra99 wrote:Dear Slitherine. I have been a war history buff and your customer for a few years now. I finally want to say something about how you programmed the German Elefant Anti-Tanks. Your programmers could not have gotten those units more WRONG. Their analysis of those units are by far the worst. Maybe you need to consult Google and do some more research.
Please get your emotions under control and talk to other forum members and the developers with respect. This isn't a forum for 8 year olds.
v8cobra99 wrote:Lets start with the facts on those. They were UTTER junk, designed by Porsche ...They were non-rolling mechanical break-down junk. Of the total qty 114 ever made, only a few ever saw any action. Due to their massive 70ton weight, they were slow and could not roll 5 miles without breakdowns, Fact.
They weren't junk. They may have had the highest kill ratio of all of Germany's AFVs. They did however have a lot of mechanical problems, which is expected for something that never made it past prototype. This is reflected by a move of 4, ammo of 5, and fuel of 38. Compare that to an ammo of 10 fuel of 88 and move of 6 for a much more reliable T-34/43. Please consider that this game covers many possibilities, including that ones where the Germans were doing substantially better and might have perfected the design.
v8cobra99 wrote:You programmed them to cost 600 pts. What BS !!! Their cost should be more like 1,500, especially since they were so expensive in real life, and especially at that time of the war.
It is certainly true that they cost far too much for the historical Germany to have been able to deploy them on the scale we see in PzC. Again, some of this has to do with making it possible to play alternate history lines where the German economy was much bigger (e.g. after defeating Russia). Part of it also has to do with the fact that this is actually a game (shocking I know), and if it accurately represented WW2 it would be mostly infantry and artillery and just wouldn't be as interesting.
v8cobra99 wrote:Next, they had zero defensive measures. Infantry should destroy or apply much more heavy damage on those regardless of terrain yet they only do 1 or 2 pts of damage in clear ground even with multiple infantry attacks. BS.
Infantry actually demolishes the Elefant in any kind of close terrain. As for open terrain you should think of the Elefant as not just a couple actual Elefants, but also including a certain amount of support troops. For Slitherine to make the Elefant die easily to infantry and still be viable (and maybe you're saying that this historically interesting unit should not be a viable part of the game) they would have to either further buff artillery support which would overpower artillery, or allow the Elefant an range of 2 to have some other unit screen it. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like that either.

To sum it up, yes, the Elefant is overpowered compared to its historical role. Yes, it is also overpowered relative to its cost. Yes, it is far more available in the game than in reality. Gameplay wise, and you didn't touch on this at all, it is also a problem because it renders the Stug III, jagd panther, and jagd tiger unnecessary. However, Slitherine actually did try to code in the weaknesses you allude to so your angry ranting about how they never research anything is not warranted. They chose to take some historical liberties in order to make it a fun unit. If you don't like that, mod it, or don't use it.

TSPC37730
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by TSPC37730 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:29 am

There's a host of areas where PC could be considered unrealistic. The Elephant could be one. The supply rules could be another. Cases could be made about the scale of the maps & the turn lengths. We could go on & on.

I, however, will keep coming back to PC. Why? Because I enjoy it immensely. It is fun. It also is, ultimately, a game. It has its flaws, inaccuracies & shortcomings. I, like probably everyone else on this forum, have a wish list of tweaks, changes & fixes I'd like to see. A wish list which will, in all probability, never be filled. I'm ok with that.

In the big picture, I've never played any game of any type or genre that I can't make the same sorts of complaints about.
Last edited by TSPC37730 on Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sn0wball
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by sn0wball » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:47 am

proline wrote:
v8cobra99 wrote: Gameplay wise, and you didn't touch on this at all, it is also a problem because it renders the Stug III, jagd panther, and jagd tiger unnecessary. However, Slitherine actually did try to code in the weaknesses you allude to so your angry ranting about how they never research anything is not warranted. They chose to take some historical liberties in order to make it a fun unit. If you don't like that, mod it, or don't use it.
That´s actually the part which bothered me the most. Every unit should have its role in the game, even the ones which weren´t actually useful at all in reality.

wargovichr
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by wargovichr » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:39 pm

Don't forget, the Ferdinand, renamed 'Elefant' when in use later in Italy, was RUSHED into service in the hasty preparation for Hitler's ill-advised Zitadelle.
When an anti-infantry ball-mounted 7.92mm machine gun was added and zimmerit anti-mine paste applied AND accompanied by protective infantry it was a very successful anti-tank weapon using a longer barrel gun with more powerful shells than the everyday 88.
In the game Panzer Corps players can also use it wrongly. It is slow and cannot keep up with blitzkrieging fast tanks. It'll tend to be left behind, not getting much action. It must be nurtured and brought along for experience, the player allowing it to gain experience by hitting enemy recon or depleted damaged infantry or armor of low combat value. A labor of love. The payoff comes later when it is USED THE WAY it was designed as *AMBUSH anti-tank in a defensive role,* perhaps behind a river and/or artillery supported. Enemy infantry will dive on it if EVER placed in close terrain.
Another option, if you have the prestige is to upgrade a pre-existing ant-tank unit so it is 'born' with experience.
One has to remember too that the Germans in WWII had way too many competing weapon types, perhaps a major error, short changing performance. They liked their toys.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:54 pm

First of all, the urban legend that the Elefant was a crap machine is simply not true. The machine's performance mostly depended on the experience of the crews. Some units sucked and got all their Elefants destroyed, others wreaked havoc among the enemy.
The close defense stats ARE crap, so if attacked by infantry in close terrain an Elefant is toast. You can't expect that to happen in open terrain though where an Elefant can fire at infantry at long range with HE. Infantry has no chance to even get close enough to deploy infantry anti tank weaponry.
As for the behavior attack vs defense, that has nothing to do with the Elefant either. ALL TDs are programmed exactly the same and ALL behave better defending than attacking. The Elefant is no exception, it just has enough ground defense to usually not get damaged TOO much when attacking but it still has good odds to get some damage when running around like a tank. it's limited movement and ammo also make it very vulnerable to being surrounded. I've lose more than one Elefant that way. Elefants are dead meat unescorted usually, and that is realistic.

As for the mechanical problems: those will never be represented correctly in a game like this for two reasons: 1st it is zero fun, 2nd it would have to be added to ALL tanks. There's not a single tank, especially the heavy tanks, in this game that didn't suffer from immense mechanical problems when they were used the first time in the war. Nearly all German tanks, especially Tigers, Panthers, not even talking about anything heavier, but also the early Pz IIIs and IVs were subject to breakdowns all the time. THe french heavy tanks were only given to the army shortly before the Germans attacked. They still had bugs all over the place, the crews didn't know yet how to maintain them properly. Breakdowns left and right. most french tanks got lost due to breakdowns and other failures instead due to german fire. The Russian KV series wasn't all that spectacular either and was over all a failed project while in the game they are a huge threat.
he Me262s had design problems, the Me163 often crashed when trying to land since it didn't have any landing gear, the Japanese version didn't even work and just blew up.
How is all this supposed to be modeled in a game like this without making the game no fun whatsoever. Is a green crewed tank supposed to stop every 3rd turn and be immobilized? Or should the units just take random damage every turn, simulating broken down tanks?
As for the cost of the tanks... there is zero fun in making the units have realistic cost. First of all it's next to impossible to figure out the exact manpower or monetary cost of units across all countries in WW2 and second it wouldn't be properly balanced at all. A set of units in a game need to be properly balanced and cost is one of the most important parts of that. Can the player affort some of the bigger units a bit too easily? Yes, but that's so the player can buy and use those iconic units everybody loves. Use realistic cost and nobody would be able to ever afford more than one Tiger unit since those things were ridiculously pricey and rare compared to other tanks. What about captured units? You can repair those in the game. How is it realistic that a player can buy replacements for captured KV units or Shermans or Mathildas? Yes the Germans had some of those but they were used behind the lines in police duty or were transformed into gun carriers or used to fill up the ranks of regular units. germany didn't suddenly start building replacements for those types.
All of that is unrealistic but gives the player the possibility to get and use some fun units types and keep them around. it's a little unfair to come here and shout at the developers because you think one unit doesn't behave like you read in some book, when these developers have created one of THE most successful and fun hex-strategy games of the decade, if not ever.
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: German Elefants = BS

Post by do335b6 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:58 pm

The early versions did have ports with specially designed weapons that had curved barrels https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... YNE_pcs1aa , as well as grenade launchers. Later variants had a ball mounted machine gun as well. Accuracy of the weapon was legendary and if run by a quality crew they were deadly. With a more reliable transmission and more time to develop it would have been a massively important weapons system.

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