Upgrade chart Russian units

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ptje63
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Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by ptje63 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:11 pm

I know there is an upgrade-family chart for the German units, so one can find out when exactly new upgrades become available. Does anyone know if such a chart available for the Russian units? ;-)
Perhaps it helps me little bit of what to expect...

ThvN
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by ThvN » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:23 pm

Hi! :) I made the original German upgrade chart (nearly three years ago!), but I did not make them for the other nationalities (No Allied campaigns then). And the current German upgrade chart lacks the Volkssturm unit that was introduced in 1.25.

I cannot say at the moment if I will make another chart, unfortunately. Last year I switched to a new PC/OS and I haven't been able to make my old Photoshop work on the new system. Recently I installed GIMP, and whenever I have some free time I am trying to figure out the differences, but because I do not have much free time this is going to take a while. I already discovered I will need some addons for GIMP to create another upgrade chart, as the basic program lacks some features I need.

The Soviet units have some strange upgrade paths; only the T-34 and the Yakovlev/Lavochkin fighters have pretty straightforward paths through the whole war. Other paths stop and provide interesting upgrade dilemmas. Like the KV-1, this slowly becomes obsolete until the KV-85 and IS-1 get introduced during september/october 1943. These two tanks require some studying before purchase because they are very close in price but their stats are slightly different. In may 1944 the IS-2 becomes available; much stronger but it has very low ammo. But all these late-war tanks are in their own family so upgrading them is expensive.

captainjack
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by captainjack » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:23 am

I must admit to being disappointed that the KV85 isn't considered part of the KV1 series. Since the IS1 is not part of the IS2 series, I upgraded my three speed-hero T34s to KV85 for a fast heavy division. The combat performance of both KV85 and IS1 is better than the T34 but the KV85 is earlier a bit sooner, so you get a better return on the prestige cost by using it for longer. Neither is related to the IS2 so the choice doesn't affect that upgrade. Personally I have a brigade of IS2 for big trouble, the KV85 as a fast heavy brigade who are cheaper to keep at high experience and have much more ammo than the IS2, and a T34 brigade who tidy up.

The fighter upgrades are a bit of a headache, but luckily I opted for AA once I compared the USSR fighters with the German ones, so this doesn't matter much.

ptje63
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by ptje63 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:12 am

This is the chart I meant:
PzC_UnitUpgradeChart small JPG.jpg
PzC_UnitUpgradeChart small JPG.jpg (105.05 KiB) Viewed 6100 times
It helps me out to decide when or if to upgrade or not, but would be happy to know if such a chart exists for Russian units...

captainjack
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by captainjack » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:33 am

That's a good chart. First time I've seen it but very clear and easy to understand.

ThvN
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by ThvN » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:13 am

Sorry ptje63, no such chart for the Soviets or any other army. Like I said, I still hope to make one in the future but I'll have to get used to GIMP first...

@ captainjack: for even more clarity, the original 1920x1080 version can be downloaded from Sendspace here (use the blue 'Download' bar in the middle):

https://www.sendspace.com/file/zab648

Mountaineer
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:58 pm

You should consider changing the unit symbol on the captured SE Tank and captured SE FW190. They both retain the German Cross, but it should be replaced with a Red Star.

zjorz
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by zjorz » Thu May 05, 2016 8:49 am

This upgrade charts has been so helpfull in giving insight in the upgrade paths. I really hope you will create one for the USSR and the UK at some point.

Btw: don't bother with the USA, its just sherman - sherman - sherman - sherman

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Thu May 05, 2016 9:31 am

Rules of thumb:

Infantry will always upgrade cheap to the '43 variant of that same model, and occasionally one other. BrdgEng units have no '43 units, nor do conscripts.
Units that are of the same model (eg KV1) will nearly always upgrade to same model. eg. Kv1A ==> Kv1B ==> Kv1C
Not certain about the fancy T34 models (OT34 and T34/57). IIRC these don't upgrade, but someone else should confirm.

IS-1 =/=> IS-2
I don't think Yak 1 goes to other Yak series, but Yak9D should go to Yak9U

Flak rarely upgrades.
Soviet AT rarely upgrades
Artillery rarely upgrades

The official upgrades can be found by opening equipment.pzeqp in excel, and looking in the 'series' column. Anything with the same label will upgrade. No label means no upgrade to anything else cheaply.

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ptje63
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by ptje63 » Sat May 07, 2016 9:02 am

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:Rules of thumb:

Infantry will always upgrade cheap to the '43 variant of that same model, and occasionally one other. BrdgEng units have no '43 units, nor do conscripts.
Units that are of the same model (eg KV1) will nearly always upgrade to same model. eg. Kv1A ==> Kv1B ==> Kv1C
Not certain about the fancy T34 models (OT34 and T34/57). IIRC these don't upgrade, but someone else should confirm.

IS-1 =/=> IS-2
I don't think Yak 1 goes to other Yak series, but Yak9D should go to Yak9U

Flak rarely upgrades.
Soviet AT rarely upgrades
Artillery rarely upgrades

The official upgrades can be found by opening equipment.pzeqp in excel, and looking in the 'series' column. Anything with the same label will upgrade. No label means no upgrade to anything else cheaply.

- BNC
For me no so essential how russian units can upgrade, but when. So I can prepare a little bit what comes chasing after me ;-). Will check the file you mentioned.
On the other hand, I admit it is more historical to have a somewhat FOW on russian upgrades. Currently in Jan. 45 first time around on FM so looking forward what surprises still may come :-).

captainjack
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by captainjack » Sat May 07, 2016 10:03 pm

KV85 puzzles me.
It was supposed to be a way to keep KV series competitive but isn't counted as KV series upgrade. Given it arrives at near enough the same time as IS1 which is better in most respects, it would make sense to keep the KV85 as a KV upgrade so you can have the more expensive but better IS1 or the second best but cheaper KV85.

The Churchill croc in Allied corps is out of series with the other Churchills but at least that is such a good upgrade with its 140% RoF it's well worth it, but the KV85 is only one step up rather than a real change.

I like the situations where upgrading isn't clear-cut and you have to make a choice (think the 109 E/F upgrade where you have to downgrade attack stats to get other benefits).

proline
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by proline » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:04 am

ThvN wrote:Sorry ptje63, no such chart for the Soviets or any other army. Like I said, I still hope to make one in the future but I'll have to get used to GIMP first...
This would still be nice to have. Hope you're used to GIMP now

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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by Panzerpimp » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:10 pm

Reupload the big image, please. It's no longer available.
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impar
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by impar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:35 am

Googling images, found this:
http://i.imgur.com/r24yZP2.png

rubyjuno
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by rubyjuno » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:31 pm

Brilliant, didn't even know this existed. Thanks impar :D

proline
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by proline » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:14 am

We still need a Russian upgrade chart.

tenshin111
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by tenshin111 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:33 am

captainjack wrote:I must admit to being disappointed that the KV85 isn't considered part of the KV1 series. Since the IS1 is not part of the IS2 series, I upgraded my three speed-hero T34s to KV85 for a fast heavy division. The combat performance of both KV85 and IS1 is better than the T34 but the KV85 is earlier a bit sooner, so you get a better return on the prestige cost by using it for longer. Neither is related to the IS2 so the choice doesn't affect that upgrade. Personally I have a brigade of IS2 for big trouble, the KV85 as a fast heavy brigade who are cheaper to keep at high experience and have much more ammo than the IS2, and a T34 brigade who tidy up.
These are some really weird decisions that game devs have taken. IS-2 is basically IS-1 with an upgraded gun, they should be in the same family. KV-85 on the other hands is an upgunned variant of earlier KV-1S which in turn was a modified KV-1 tank with lighter armour and a different turret so I kind of agree that it's not cheaply upgradeable from earlier KV-1 tanks, as it has a different "body" and a different turret.

The German tech tree is also full of inconsistencies. The "classic" example is Ta-152 which is a high-altitude variant of Fw-190 yet it doesn't belong in the upgrade family. On the other hand, you can upgrade towed artillery for peanuts to any other variant even though they have almost nothing in common. Same with towed AT guns - each one is a different design yet cheaply upgradeable between models. Go figure :roll:

That's the main reason I never play this game with the "stock" equipment file ;)

tenshin111
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by tenshin111 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:01 am

And another curiosity in the Soviet equipment file:

YaG-10 - the mobile AA gun which was built in small numbers and historically used in Moscow's defence in...winter 41/42 only becomes available in November'43. Clearly, that should have been November'41 ;)

proline
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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by proline » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:39 pm

tenshin111 wrote:you can upgrade towed artillery for peanuts to any other variant even though they have almost nothing in common. Same with towed AT guns - each one is a different design yet cheaply upgradeable between models. Go figure :roll:
One could argue that while the guns are different, the crews would require relatively little retraining when getting a new gun- going from a 5cm PaK to a 7.5cm PaK isn't the same as going from a 5cm PaK to a StuG III, which is a totally different skill set. Similarly, the Me 410 was not built by upgrading existing Me 110 airframes, but a pilot would have found it a relatively easy switch.

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Re: Upgrade chart Russian units

Post by Panzerpimp » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:51 am

impar wrote:found this
Thank you! Much appreciated.
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