What kind of units are useless in game ?

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Yrfin
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What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:56 pm

1. Recon units.
2. AA units.
3. S.Bombers
4. Developers team.
5. Noobs.

Anything else ?
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

captainjack
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by captainjack » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:34 pm

Yrfin wrote:1. Recon units.2. AA units.3. S.Bombers
This could be a fun discussion!
You obviously don't share my play experiences.

1. Recon is good for mine location. LRDG/Sahariana are excellent units (at least until they miss out on 43 upgrades). Add spotting hero or move hero to an 8 move all terrain recon and they become very useful, especially on very large maps or for hunting down partisans, and checking out defensive artillery and AA before attacking. And the ridiculously overpowered russian recon units at rock bottom prices are cost effective (what were the dev team thinking that day?)
2. Try playing Soviet Corps with fighters before the La5 becomes available - you'd be better off using a cheat code to dump 1000 prestige per scenario! Used with care (and preferably a move hero on the towed stuff), the ability to protect multiple units with defensive fire which can often prevent attacks completely, cause 70 or 80% casualties on attacking aircraft that aren't paying attention and take a few points off more powerful units before your attacking with your own small fighter force are all good. US Corps mobile AA is excellent. True they would be more use if more could switch to Artillery for when the skies are cleared (though second and third waves and stray survivors keep them useful).
3. US bombers in particular have lots of fuel, high ammo and excellent passive AA. Since the US tanks (And often the TDs) can't cope with armour and SPAT much better than a Panzer III or early Panzer IV, you need strat bombers to suppress and strip ammo. For defensive scenarios the ammo stripping can be used to build a defensive wall of enemy units with no ammo, fuel stripping can immobilise dangerous units and your IS1 and 2 are much easier to deal with when they only have one shot left. See also suppressed AA and a 5* 14strength bomber to see how useful an unloaded gun is. Strategic neutralisation of cities can be handy and a well-timed airfield neutralisation once killed three enemy fighters (I learned from losing one of my own to an AI strike). And finally, try taking out naval units without them.

However, points 4 and 5 don't look like a fun discussion:
4 No devs = no game. Flawed, yes occasionally, but very much appreciated.
5 We were all noobs once. Try "we're having fun, why not join in?"

For me, the useless units are:
Towed AT. More expensive than SPAT, too slow to get into action, too vulnerable when travelling. Awful upgrade paths - how come I have to pay to upgrade my towed 2 pounder with a truck to a portee which is the same 2 pounder mounted on the back of a truck - I I have a mod that allows switching between portee and on-ground (the towed/ground version has slightly better combat stats becaus its better concealed/dug in , has better sighting lines etc). Rubbish attack stats (75mm Pak almost the same HA as 50mm Pak, the excellent French and good Italian 47mm rated no better than a 37mm).
Recon. OK they can be useful, but they need a few tweaks to do the job properly - eg no penalty for breaking the move (should only apply to recon class, not to others with recon move) and possibly immune to ambush or (probably better) a chance to evade ambush.
Marders! Potentially good units but so many different unrelated classes and types and no upgrade from towed or to anything else.
Last edited by captainjack on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

hurly
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by hurly » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:38 pm

1. Recon units.
2. AA units.
3. S.Bombers
4. Developers team.
5. Noobs.
I am not sure what the intention behind this post is ?

Just a trolling effort of some kind ?

So I won't comment on #4

but I can say so much right now

If you really think Strat Bombers and AA are useless I have serious doubts about your knowledge of the Game

Recon might be a controversial Category in many regards, but even these are anything but useless. They might not fit in with all Styles and Tactics, but depending on Scenario or Campaign a Recon can be even your Unsung Hero if not MVP and I wanna mention their movement flexibility here in the First Place even though they have other qualities as well

milliethedog
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by milliethedog » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:52 pm

Hi, I am a bit like "Hurly" I am concerned what is the Intention? The deliberate insult on 4) from a new poster does make me wonder if there is a hidden agenda. This game would not still being played without the game developers continuing to help, produce new content and trouble shooting. "Captainjack" gives a good full answer and with slight changes for individual playing styles cover almost everything.

Martin

Yrfin
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:01 pm

`Thanks for answered. I delete "developer team" from my list of "useless units in game".

sarcasm_funny_sayings_and_quotes_pillows-r9e465160c9e9409bbeb4177ce6d39f34_2i4t2_8byvr_512.jpg
sarcasm_funny_sayings_and_quotes_pillows-r9e465160c9e9409bbeb4177ce6d39f34_2i4t2_8byvr_512.jpg (35.46 KiB) Viewed 3999 times
It was test about taste of humor.

But dicussion is not over yet.
Last edited by Yrfin on Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

Yrfin
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:54 pm

captainjack wrote: 1... And the ridiculously overpowered russian recon units at rock bottom prices are cost effective (what were the dev team thinking that day?)
Whats wrong with russian recon units ?
captainjack wrote: ... ability to protect multiple units with defensive fire which can often prevent attacks completely, cause 70 or 80% casualties on attacking aircraft that aren't paying attention and take a few points off more powerful units before your attacking with your own small fighter force are all good.
Sure. But after 2-3 turn we dont need more AA. We are need air-strike for support. And AA became useless.

captainjack wrote: 3. And finally, try taking out naval units without them.
Its disappointing me too. I cant imagine B-17 bombing lonely german U-boat.
captainjack wrote: For me, the useless units are:
Towed AT.
Agree. What about add more mobility to towed AT (move=2) ? Maybe ability to switch in "ambush" mode ?
captainjack wrote:Recon. ... a chance to evade ambush.
Like U-boat ? Sound interesting.
captainjack wrote: Marders! Potentially good units but so many different unrelated classes and types and no upgrade from towed or to anything else.
What about add switching ability "camo" to all Marders family only ?
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

hurly
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by hurly » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:14 pm

Yrfin wrote:
captainjack wrote: ... ability to protect multiple units with defensive fire which can often prevent attacks completely, cause 70 or 80% casualties on attacking aircraft that aren't paying attention and take a few points off more powerful units before your attacking with your own small fighter force are all good.
Sure. But after 2-3 turn we dont need more AA. We are need air-strike for support. And AA became useless.
HMM I can't resist to ask

Can you tell us which campaigns of Panzer Corps you have played til now and especially how far did you advance ?



Yrfin wrote:
captainjack wrote: 3. And finally, try taking out naval units without them.
Its disappointing me too. I cant imagine B-17 bombing lonely german U-boat.
Well I can't imagine any Strat Bomber bombing a Sub in Panzer Corps. I might have missed the ability on several Units though :shock:

Yrfin
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:40 pm

hurly wrote: Can you tell us which campaigns of Panzer Corps you have played til now and especially how far did you advance ?
GC East till 44 (General).
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

hurly
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by hurly » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:56 pm

Yrfin wrote:
hurly wrote: Can you tell us which campaigns of Panzer Corps you have played til now and especially how far did you advance ?
GC East till 44 (General).
ok so at least for most of the scenarios up to this point I see your statement as valid, although for some time now (can't say which patches exactly, probably around 1.20) the Enemy Air Force comes in Waves (Turn 5 or 6 , Turn 9 or 10, Turn 13) In my early attempts with lower patched Versions I also had the impression Enemy Air is down and out early, but also possible I missed the Wave pattern completely

This might not be true from now on anymore and is also not true for other campaigns

just a sample from my AAR about the Irag Scenario in Afrika Korps
Going through the Scenario with Team RED (<--my army) I can tell you neutralizing Baghdad Airfield (not necessarily the elimination of the Radar Station) by Turn 8 stops the AI from spawning 4 Spitfires in the Bottom Half of Turn 8 and 2 more Spitfires in the Bottom Half of Turn 9
I assume you probably don't know Afrika Korps. 6 pretty good Fighters midway through a scenario in a Campaign where you can deploy about 30 Units Total and not a lot of Fighters can be devastating

captainjack
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by captainjack » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:36 am

Yrfin wrote:
captainjack wrote: 1... And the ridiculously overpowered russian recon units at rock bottom prices are cost effective (what were the dev team thinking that day?)

Good point, I should have named it but forgot. I was thinking of the M3A1, which caused some discussion in early 2016 (viewtopic.php?f=121&t=71254)
The stats when introduced
M3A1
Soft Attack 9
Hard Attack 7 (not bad for a 0.5" and a pair of 0.3" MG!)
Initiative 9
Ground defence 10, soft target. (not bad for a lightly armoured half track, though recon should be hard to hit) Cost 200.

When I checked just now, M3A1 stats were a bit more reasonable, but I am currently using Nikki's equipment file, so can't be sure if this has been changed officially (in which case, well done dev team) or only in Equipment file 18. I'm all in favour of encouraging people to use recon and a bit of poetic licence to fit game needs, but for only 200 prestige this was unbalanced.

And as for naval attacks and bombers, yes I know you need tac bombers to deal with subs (provided they don't evade), but for everything else including landing craft the strat bomber is kinda handy, especially as they are immune to naval unit (and ground unit) passive air defence so they don't suffer the gradual strength loss that tac bombers do.

When using AA rather than fighters the trick is to pretty much ignore aircraft, and focus on defence of other units (though as you have lots of ammo you should still shoot at anything in range, just focus on protecting units rather than chasing planes). This is partly because of the -5 low level attack penalty on defence, so enemy planes are easily deterred from attacking once you get a star or two, and the enemy airforce is not much use if it doesn't want to attack you. Of course you need some fighters as escorts if you want to use bombers, but two fighters and two or three AA usually enough to get air superiority if you are patient. Having said that, on my most recent Allied Corps run through I had five or six fighters, so it's more a matter that you can use AA in place of fighters if you want to.

AMDonline
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by AMDonline » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:34 am

Recon units are useless for me, they need to have their own slots limit(3 maximum) and not take a place from your main army so more people would consider hiring them.

proline
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by proline » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:23 am

1. Light German AT. There are so many to choose from and they are all bad. Marder 2, Marder 3, Hetzer, Nashorn, Jagd PzIV, all terrible. All you really need is the StuG 3 series and Elephants. Maybe a jagd Panther or Tiger for fun.

2. Towed AT. There are few scenarios slow moving enough for these units not to lose two thirds of their turns to getting into position. A unit that rarely fires isn't worth much.

3. Recon. There are whole threads about this, but suffice it to say they suck. Except for the Russian ones that were recently added.

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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by tenshin111 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:36 am

hurly wrote:
1. Recon units.
2. AA units.
3. S.Bombers
4. Developers team.
5. Noobs.
I am not sure what the intention behind this post is ?

Just a trolling effort of some kind ?

So I won't comment on #4

but I can say so much right now

If you really think Strat Bombers and AA are useless I have serious doubts about your knowledge of the Game
Exactly my thoughts!

Cerberus51
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Cerberus51 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:54 am

I've played Afrika Korps, Allied Corps and US Corps and the only unit type I have never found a use for is towed AT.

In Allied Corps the British armoured cars are better than the early tanks, but that is the only situation where I buy recon units.

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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by rubyjuno » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:29 am

Yrfin wrote:1. Recon units.
2. AA units.
3. S.Bombers
4. Developers team.
5. Noobs.

Anything else ?
I'm bewildered that anyone who has played Panzer Corps for any length of time would think Strategic Bombers are useless! I use recon units to protect my more important units from ambush or nasty surprises. They can take a peek then retreat if necessary, capture objectives and finish off weakened units. They're also cheap so I don't mind losing them as much as other units. I agree about AA to some extent - the mobile ones aren't powerful enough and the powerful ones aren't mobile enough :roll: I do keep a couple of 88s though, as they're good dual purpose units for defensive purposes. I try to build up a good fighter core and aim to achieve air superiority early on. I rarely use AT, although in the Wehrmacht campaign I had an Elefant or two for Bagration to support my Tigers against the Soviet hordes. All in all, I would say none of the unit classes are really useless, some are more important than others and will make up the bulk of your core, but the others have their place in some circumstances and in some scenarios.

hurly
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by hurly » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:50 am

I would even go as far to set up the thesis
There are no useless Units, there are only users who have not the right idea how to use them
For my part I can say I have lots of trouble to make towed AT work really effective, but I'm always looking for better ideas how to use them.

I remember some older youtube videos where a guy (deducter ???) did a great job using several units i never got going or never even acquired.

I mean its pretty easy to punch holes into opposing Tanks with a Tiger, Tiger 2 or an Elefant by the time they become available

The finer and skillful art of utilizing units is making a defensive stand at the the right spot with some infantry backed up by arty and AA and holding the Line against a Soviet Tank Rush probably even forcing a surrender on a 9 strength Josef Stalin 2 Tank

So while i definitely have my own style, I'm pretty aware of the Fact I can learn a lot from different Players and their Tactics and evolve my Style into better Overall Results.

And I love the above mentioned personal Challenges Idea

3 things that come up in my mind right now

Win Soviet Corps without buying any Air Unit (if you are awarded Air Units, well use them for the Scenario they appear and then disband them for the next one) Not sure that is possible to do, but definitely a challenge

or

Do the Italian Challenge in Panzer Korps without any Non Italian Units (well probably SE Units are allowed or let one one of the real knowledgeable guys modify some data so they turn out as SE Italian Units )

Allied Corps in All British or US Fashion (well I think that's not to hard to do)

the Ideas for such a Challenge are almost endless

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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Cerberus51 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:41 am

hurly wrote: And I love the above mentioned personal Challenges Idea

Allied Corps in All British or US Fashion (well I think that's not to hard to do)
Funny you should mention this. I've done it at General with only British units and that wasn't hard but I'm planning a British only run at Montgomery (= Rommel) for my next AAR.

hurly
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by hurly » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:36 pm

hm anyone around here that still knows C&C Generals Zero Hour

The Generals Challenge Mode was a feature where You did not play the Campaign but a ladder of challenges resp Scenarios

vs Air Force General
vs Tank General
vs Artillery General
vs Infantry General
and so on
all in all 8 scenarios + boss scenario in the end

all pretty hard Scenarios to beat on the higher difficulty Levels

and there was a pretty nice variation of Gameplay as well

as you could do the challenge as Air Force General, Tank General, Artillery General, Infantry General I think you get the Picture

All these General had some modded units fitting their strengths and got a prize Discount on Normal Units of their Category

I think a variation of that in Panzer Corps could be interesting as well

Go as British RAF General or German Tank General, US Bomber or Arty General vs specially designed Ultra Hard Scenarios

Maybe an Idea for our very skilled Modders

I would love such a challenge in the Panzer Corps Realm for sure as I still habe a Version of this C&C Generals Game up and running on Windows 7 and go there for some thrilling action from time to time

Yrfin
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Yrfin » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:26 pm

So much emotion in answers and so little analitics.
But dicussion is not over yet.
Will be continued ...
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

Yrfin
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Re: What kind of units are useless in game ?

Post by Yrfin » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:44 pm

hurly wrote:... the Enemy Air Force comes in Waves (Turn 5 or 6 , Turn 9 or 10, Turn 13) In my early attempts with lower patched Versions I also had the impression Enemy Air is down and out early, but also possible I missed the Wave pattern completely
Not "waves" in this scenario. Only 3 local air-group:
- first (Nord-East) : 3 SF IX+VB
- second (South): 4 SF IX + Mosq
- third (far Center) : 2 SF IX+VB and Typhoon.

And yet, 2 useless Lancasters. In Desert. Very historical.:)
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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