The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

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Yrfin
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The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:35 pm

Just a question:
What for we are need useless Heroes in PzC ?
Why i have Heroes with +3 Attack on my lovely Gustav Big Gun ?
Where is Heroes for me with +1 Ammo or maybe +5 Move or so maybe more useful bonuses ?

And i think about:
Change ability got a first Hero in First Turn (1 Kill).
Second Hero will be get bonus by default (300 or so kills). Forgive me for +1 Def on my lovely Gustav Big Gun :(.
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

Cerberus51
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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Cerberus51 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:59 am

You are raising several issues.

The biggest issue is that having heroes that are more powerful than currently possible risks unbalancing consequences. In my recent US Corps playthrough one of my Rangers gained three attack heroes for A+7, doubling the unit's soft attack value. That is OK for something that doesn't happen very often but if it were more frequent would make units overpowered.

Very few heroes are useless, although how useful depends on the unit and the hero. Attack and defence heroes are of some benefit to all units, including artillery. A movement hero is obviously of greater benefit to a Pioniere/Engineer than to an air unit. The only hero that has no value is a spotting hero on units that do not go in the front line, ie artillery and anti-aircraft. Again from my last campaign I received 6 spotting heroes out of over 60, 5 on front line units and 1 on an artillery. Obviously you can be unlucky but war has random outcomes, it is not chess.

Changing first hero is easy, just disband the unit and buy a fresh one. If you don't want to lose the experience, live with the hero you get.

I'm not saying there is no room for improving the system, but I really don't see a major problem.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:19 pm

Cerberus51 wrote:Changing first hero is easy, just disband the unit and buy a fresh one. If you don't want to lose the experience, live with the hero you get.
I dont want lose expiriense on my units, disband/repurchase and so. What for ? For stupidy of game designers ?

But youre just said: "No need changes. Its OK".

Yeh, its no BIG problem for me, and i can handle it with my own and i can edit gamerules file.
But its still looking like silly, give +1 Range bonus to Art (for example). What for?
Absolutely not realistic, and not fun.
Cerberus51 wrote:Obviously you can be unlucky but war has random outcomes, it is not chess.
Yeh, its no chess. And little randomization can make the Game a little funny, but ONLY without training my ability press Ctrl-L.

So, any kind of solution Heroes Problem in current situation ?
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

Cerberus51
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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Cerberus51 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:09 pm

Yrfin wrote:
Cerberus51 wrote:Changing first hero is easy, just disband the unit and buy a fresh one. If you don't want to lose the experience, live with the hero you get.
I dont want lose expiriense on my units, disband/repurchase and so. What for ? For stupidy of game designers ?
With the exception of spotting heroes on artillery and AA all heroes offer some benefit, although it can be significant with some hero/unit combinations and marginal with others. As I said, there is a random element in war - so it is not reasonable or realistic to always get exactly what you want. I would be happy to have a system which did not allocate unsuitable hero types - like spotting to artillery - but am prepared to accept not always getting an ideal hero. I don't know if that is even possible in this game.

Accusing someone of stupidity is offensive, particularly when you have no idea why the situation is the way it is. Sometimes something cannot be changed in the game engine, sometimes commercial pressures mean there is not enough time, sometimes something is not anticipated. It is easy to be critical afterwards. Saying someone has been stupid without understanding why they made a particular decision is, well, stupid.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:29 pm

Cerberus51 wrote: Accusing someone of stupidity is offensive, particularly when you have no idea why the situation is the way it is. Sometimes something cannot be changed in the game engine, sometimes commercial pressures mean there is not enough time, sometimes something is not anticipated. It is easy to be critical afterwards. Saying someone has been stupid without understanding why they made a particular decision is, well, stupid.
I dont know what "respectable" game-designers think about it, when implent Heroes features, but it still looking SILLY. Sorry.

Spotting on Arty - its Bad, but not Ugly.
But +range on Arty is Ugly for me.

And I cant remake Heroes features in current game, but i can little change it (see my proposition).
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by nikivdd » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:29 pm

I'll ignore the words stupid and useless; the latter popped up quite frequently lately. Let's blame it on a language barrier. Don't know where you are from, but English is not my native language either.

I consider heroes as a flavor to the game, i also don't always get the hero i'd really like. Unfortunately heroes are not moddable. When a hero pops up during a given game turn, that turn can always be reloaded and then hope for a better one. I do agree that certain heroes should only appear with certain classes of units like for example spotting to recon, range for artillery and AA, and some as attack value for all classes of units.

Scripted units with a hero who appear during the course of the GC, can always be edited through the scenario editor and tweaked more to your liking.
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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by goose_2 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:36 pm

I have given this some considerable thought as I am trying to go through another try at the Grand Campaign Eastern side on Manstein level.

So if I get a Bad or Ugly hero as my first hero for any unit I will sell and try again.
My idea of an ugly or bad hero that I will probably resell and try again.
First let's start with the good.
Defensive heroes are always good in my opinion on any unit but I find them most helpful on infantry, tanks, fighters, and anti tanks. So any + whatever Defensive hero is always a + in my book.
With that said + Att heroes are always a bonus with the outstanding +3 hero being the top of the pack. I will say that getting your first 2 heroes to be +1 att is a little disappointing as you feel like you could have received that total bonus with a single hero but again every bit counts.

So that is what I will start with.
Now Unit Class by unit class.
Infantry:
The Good: Movement, Attack, Defense, Initiative in that order.
The Bad: Spotting
No Ugly: I think I will allow any 1st hero to remain in my Manstein playthrough.

Tanks same as Inf:
The Good: Movement, Attack, Defense, Initiative in that order.
The Bad: Spotting
No Ugly: I think I will allow any 1st hero to remain in my Manstein playthrough.

The Anti-tank:
The Good: Attack and Defense this is why you use them so having that as your only heroes is what you want.
The Bad: Initiative and Movement. (Because you are not going to be doing a lot of rushing with anti tanks and they already have a penalty on Initiative I believe so I would take these heroes but am not rooting for them.)
The Ugly: Spotting (If I get this as my 1st hero resell is my only option, and a single tear.) :cry:

Recon:
The Good: Spotting (This is the only thing you want for these units and will be the only thing I will be rooting for for their lucky first hero)
The Bad: All the rest as any hero you get with recon other than Spotting is bad compared to Spotting.
No Ugly for Recon because any hero is a bonus for this unit.

Artillery:
The Good: Attack, Range, Movement (In this order and they can be just so awesome to get every single time)
The Bad: Defense (Although my +2 Def and +3 def arty's have been incredibly resilient and about the only experienced artillery to survive the long haul in 45.
The Ugly: Spotting. This will be an immediate sell between scenarios to try again.

Anti-Aircraft
The Good: Range, Movement, Attack (In that order)
The Bad: Defense
The Ugly: (Spotting) Seriously? Time to retry.

Fighter:
The Good: Defense, Initiative, Attack. (I love, love, love getting Defense as a First hero for these boys as they will be able to deal and take punishment)
The Bad: Spotting, this might be Ugly as I might consider selling if that is the first hero.
The Ugly: Movement. There are no ifs ands or buts about it immediate resell.

Bomber both Tac and Strat:
The Good: Attack or Defense this is why they are in your army Nothing else is wanted or desired. (Attack bonuses first)
The Bad: Nothing bad it only get's ugly for them.
The Ugly: Initiative and Movement and Spotting are all useless on these bad boys. and as such will be resold if first heroes and painfully absorbed if 2nd.

This is my way too much time on my hands thoughts on this topic.
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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:14 pm

nikivdd wrote:I'll ignore the words stupid and useless; the latter popped up quite frequently lately. Let's blame it on a language barrier. Don't know where you are from, but English is not my native language either.

I consider heroes as a flavor to the game, i also don't always get the hero i'd really like. Unfortunately heroes are not moddable. When a hero pops up during a given game turn, that turn can always be reloaded and then hope for a better one. I do agree that certain heroes should only appear with certain classes of units like for example spotting to recon, range for artillery and AA, and some as attack value for all classes of units.

Scripted units with a hero who appear during the course of the GC, can always be edited through the scenario editor and tweaked more to your liking.
Hi, nikivdd. I remember your Mod SS-GTPG ;) It was great ! First scenario : Gustav in Poland ! Fuc...! And i played this Shi.. till Anzio :) Then I stop and said myself "What the Fuc.. this stupid Mod." And delete it from my comp.
Maybe this Mod has forced me to think about modding PzC more cleaver then you did. Sorry, pal.

Anyway, sometimes youre right, sometimes not at all.
So, im not crazy about Heroes feature in PzC, I just want a find solutiuon to change a little this system.
And of coz i know about Scripted units with a hero and never give him ability: "Fly two Hex away from me" :)
Last edited by Yrfin on Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Cerberus51 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:38 pm

Yrfin wrote:But +range on Arty is Ugly for me.
Artillery unit range as either 2 or 3 is quite arbitrary anyway and doesn't necessarily reflect on the actual weapon. For example, the British 25 pdr has a real range similar to the US and German 105mm weapons but in game only gets range 2, not 3. Artillery range in game is very simplistic and I choose to take it as the effective range of an ordinary unit, not the maximum range of the weapon. In that situation a range hero represents the unit becoming more skilled and accurate at longer range so they get an advantage over a unit without that skill.

I can understand that you don't like range heroes on artillery but artillery range has a more fundamental flaw than that and getting a range hero really just introduces a difference between an experienced unit and one manned by a bunch of conscripts.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:02 pm

Cerberus51 wrote:
Yrfin wrote:But +range on Arty is Ugly for me.
Artillery unit range as either 2 or 3 is quite arbitrary anyway and doesn't necessarily reflect on the actual weapon. For example, the British 25 pdr has a real range similar to the US and German 105mm weapons but in game only gets range 2, not 3. Artillery range in game is very simplistic and I choose to take it as the effective range of an ordinary unit, not the maximum range of the weapon. In that situation a range hero represents the unit becoming more skilled and accurate at longer range so they get an advantage over a unit without that skill.

I can understand that you don't like range heroes on artillery but artillery range has a more fundamental flaw than that and getting a range hero really just introduces a difference between an experienced unit and one manned by a bunch of conscripts.
Lets start from beginning.
First: Im not have power to change all Heroes system.
Second: I think about improve system (in my first post: "Change ability got a first Hero in First Turn (1 Kill).").

PS. And im still dont understand, how experience of cannon crew can be increase range of fireing :( Maybe RoF only.
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:24 pm

Hi, Goose.

Sorry for multiplayer, but my current version under 1.3 :(

And with long long way strategic vision youre will be best in this Company. Good luck at East :)
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by captainjack » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:55 pm

Spotting hero on artillery rightly gets a lot of bad press and while it's not quite so bad on a Stug or other armoured SPart, it's always a disappointment.

However, the prize for useless has to go to initiative heroes on Italian, Russian and US tac bombers. Initiative only counts when attacked by aircraft, and the base values are so low that it doesn't have any effect against anything they will ever face. At least on a German or British aircraft you have Tac bombers with active air attack where the extra initiative makes a difference against strategic bombers and against older fighters. +1 ammo would be some much better for these.

I agree with the idea that most heroes reflect a unit with better organisation, a few key leaders, special training. Eg Move + 1 could be improved route planning, better maintenance, an ability to "borrow" fuel from other units as, or just being assigned as a specialist fast unit, just as Range +1 could be particularly good spotting, ranging, siting and crew organisation rather than supercharged ammo or simply being recognised as being good at this kind of thing and being given permission to fire at extended range.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:12 pm

captainjack wrote:Spotting hero on artillery rightly gets a lot of bad press and while it's not quite so bad on a Stug or other armoured SPart, it's always a disappointment.

However, the prize for useless has to go to initiative heroes on Italian, Russian and US tac bombers. Initiative only counts when attacked by aircraft, and the base values are so low that it doesn't have any effect against anything they will ever face. At least on a German or British aircraft you have Tac bombers with active air attack where the extra initiative makes a difference against strategic bombers and against older fighters. +1 ammo would be some much better for these.

I agree with the idea that most heroes reflect a unit with better organisation, a few key leaders, special training. Eg Move + 1 could be improved route planning, better maintenance, an ability to "borrow" fuel from other units as, or just being assigned as a specialist fast unit, just as Range +1 could be particularly good spotting, ranging, siting and crew organisation rather than supercharged ammo or simply being recognised as being good at this kind of thing and being given permission to fire at extended range.
Hi, Cap.
Im agreed with initiative bonus - it cool, flexible and must have to be.
But spoting, ranging, moving Heroes just make me Ugly for a moment.

So, just I said: :"We cant change rules, but we can improve it".
And I think what getting Heroes on 1 Turn will be usefull.
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by ErissN6 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:00 pm

nikivdd wrote:I consider heroes as a flavor to the game
That's it. I don't care their bonuses, I don't mean that I don't want these, but that I don't pay attention to them. I'm happy they have some bonus, but I almost treat my heroes as all other units.
I'm really not the micromanaging minmaxing guy.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by lav72 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:14 pm

I'm sorry but I do have to pipe in regarding the "uselessness" of a +1 range hero for artillery.

In general, I tend to purchase a lot of artillery units (when they become available) that either have a range of 1 or 2. These self-propelled artillery units (don't have the names in front of me at the moment) may lack the range right off the bat, but sure make up for it with the amount of ammunition it carries, being a hard unit vs soft (towed) ...

These heroes also allow me to attack enemy units behind my frontline instead of having to move it right by said enemy.

Getting extra range for these and any artillery unit is more than welcome. Even with an artillery piece that has a range of 3 to start off with. You can lob shells without having to worry that they will be spotted by the enemy and just keep these units well behind your frontline.

My two cents ...

Lav

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by captainjack » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:34 am

Range +1 on medium artillery is great for counter-battery fire and for suppressing AA guns behind the front line.
2-range Stug 3s and 3-range nebelwerfers are also very handy.

On AA, while a 4 range 88 is kind of nice, I'd rather a move hero so it can keep up with the other troops. From recent experience I would usually convert an 88 with a range hero to a mobile AA, where the 3 range makes them much better for attack while still being able to maintain defence of other units.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by edahl1980 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:07 pm

Heroes often determine the outcome for a unit around 42/43

Movement
Infantry means the unit become a pioneer used for clearing minefields and assist in urban warfare. ASAP really.
Tanks. they become offensive tiger candidates leading the attack with a specially assigned recon unit attached to them leading the way.
AT means they turn into an elephant. Pillboxes used on defense.
Artillery means they become nebelwerfer without transport. Used mostly in urban warfare. On a rare occasion on defense.
AA becomes an 88 used as AT. These are vicious tank-busters up untill 43, and probably leads in destroyed tanks at the start of 43 of all my units.

For recon and planes i suppose a movement hero doesnt really do much good.

Spotting
Prefered on recon unit or planes. But i dont mind having them on infantry or even tanks.
If i get spotting on artillery it means that unit is likely to become a StugIII on the frontline.
On AA they become 88's/AT at the defensive front.

Range on AA and Art is really awesome.
On art they become 21cm down the line, one might go into railroad artillery. Max damage and range.
On AA they are likely to become 88's, then 128's.

+1 initiative is really the heroes i want the least.

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by ptje63 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:23 pm

TigerIII wrote:Heroes often determine the outcome for a unit around 42/43

Movement
Infantry means the unit become a pioneer used for clearing minefields and assist in urban warfare. ASAP really.
Tanks. they become offensive tiger candidates leading the attack with a specially assigned recon unit attached to them leading the way.
AT means they turn into an elephant. Pillboxes used on defense.
Artillery means they become nebelwerfer without transport. Used mostly in urban warfare. On a rare occasion on defense.
AA becomes an 88 used as AT. These are vicious tank-busters up untill 43, and probably leads in destroyed tanks at the start of 43 of all my units.

For recon and planes i suppose a movement hero doesnt really do much good.

Spotting
Prefered on recon unit or planes. But i dont mind having them on infantry or even tanks.
If i get spotting on artillery it means that unit is likely to become a StugIII on the frontline.
On AA they become 88's/AT at the defensive front.

Range on AA and Art is really awesome.
On art they become 21cm down the line, one might go into railroad artillery. Max damage and range.
On AA they are likely to become 88's, then 128's.

+1 initiative is really the heroes i want the least.
I have 7 Tigers II in January 45 with +1 spotting - appreciate them! Depending less on recon, because most of the time on the defensive and less unit slots.
+1 range on my AA 12cm (four in total now) is indeed awesome - they are true killers in frontine offensive as well as on the defense

+1 initiative yes or not - probably a specialized forum topic on that subject, but i cant find it ;-) . It is the least showing during gameplay, but perhaps underestimated? Some of us are true statistical "hunters" so they may shed some light on this. PC has so many sides, digging into statistics is one of them, but after a while I quit, because then I just have to "dive" into the game, saying "God zegene de greep" - Dutch expression meaning: I cant decide at the moment if I make the right decision, but I have to do SOMETHING - so please make it be the correct one ;-)

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by Yrfin » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:11 am

lol
Today has revised the movie "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".
No more heroes for me :)
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: The Good Heroes, The Bad heroes and The Ugly heroes ?

Post by proline » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:57 am

goose_2 wrote: Anti-Aircraft
The Good: Range, Movement, Attack (In that order)
The Bad: Defense
The Ugly: (Spotting) Seriously? Time to retry.
I disagree with your ordering. Both range and move heroes give AA the same effective attack radius, however move heroes allow them to stay if AA mode more of the time where they are ready to provide defensive fire, whereas range heroes will spend more time in vehicle mode as sitting ducks. In addition, range heroes have no benefit in ground attack mode, whereas movement heroes massively improve the chance of being able to get a few AT attacks in.

Now one time I got a 12.8cm with both a range and movement hero. I overstregthed him to 15. He could one-shot anything that got within 6(!) hexes of him. Even armored bombers. That's ridiculously good.

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