Playable Divisions & Battalions

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jdarocha
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Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by jdarocha » Mon May 22, 2017 3:36 pm

I know the issue of unit scale has been discussed here before, but I would like to create a German Infantry and a Panzer Division that I can use and won’t be too expansive.

I am not aiming at 100% historical accuracy, but just a simple group of units that would closely fit the composition of a German division.

For example; If I wanted to create a German Infantry Division to play in a scenario in Panzer Corps I would use; (I am guessing here)

Infantry Division
3 Infantry Units
1 Artillery Unit
1 Recon Unit

A Panzer Division might be; (again a guess)
3 Tank Units
2 Panzer Grenadier Units
1 Recon Unit
1 Artillery Unit

Can some of you grognards provide me with a composition of units that would form a reasonable Inf or Panzer Division? Are my estimates close?

Again, not looking for complete historical accuracy but a reasonably accurate depiction of a Division for game play purposes.

Thanks in advance for your skill and knowledge
Halder

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by Yrfin » Mon May 22, 2017 4:49 pm

My Pz.Div for GC 39
PzDiv_GC39.JPG
PzDiv_GC39.JPG (25.43 KiB) Viewed 3116 times
Switchable:
- Stab (to Fi 156)
- Krads.Btl (mount/dismount)
- PaK/FlaK.Abt
- Pionier.Btl (to Brucken.Btl)
PzDiv_GC39_switch.JPG
PzDiv_GC39_switch.JPG (26.54 KiB) Viewed 3116 times
Shoot first. Ask questions later.

captainjack
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by captainjack » Tue May 23, 2017 6:54 am

Halder wrote: I would use
When playing GTPG or Legacy of Versailles, the large maps make some sort of divisional structure pretty much essential.
I usually use 3 infantry plus 1 cavalry scout (a motorised division gets a motorbike scout) but usually add two artillery rather than 1.

I haven't settled on a good structure for armoured units yet. Four tanks (typically starts as two Panzer 1, and two Panzer 2, with the 1s upgrading to 3 and the 2s to 4 (sometimes 1 to 4 and 2 to 3).

Then I fill the rest with HQ/Divisional support group - typically 2 artillery, one each pioneer and bridge engineer, and either two gebirgsjagers or some mix of recons and maybe an AA or AT unit. Aircraft is usually two fighters, a 110 and a strategic bomber.

SE units usually form their own division, supplemented with captured units.

That usually results in one infantry division, one motorised infantry, one tank division, a Luftwaffe group and the HQ team, which works quite well until the Russian campaign sees the tanks torn apart by endless T34s and KV1s.

For the DLCs the slightly smaller maps mean that divisional structure is less critical, but it adds a a bit of colour and can make planning and checking progress easier as well.

This works quite well, but isn't quite so usef

CroCop96
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Wed May 24, 2017 10:28 pm

The first couple of times I played, I was too rigid and strict and wanted to create 1:1, real life divisions. When divisions were formed, I tended to move them together at all times, reluctant to send away troops to help another division (which is appropriate for any commander - you want to watch over your men, naturally). Thus I often had situations where I would lack 3-4 units on one front (I could've really used 1 infantry regiment, AND 1 tank regiment, AND an artillery regiment); and on the other front I would have a horde of 4 extra units which would just be tagging along and cluttering the road.

The solution I use now, especially in GC East, is two-fold:


Firstly, I use smaller, historically less correct, but still viable divisions.
For an infantry division, 2 regiments of infantry and 1 rgt of artillery are enough.

Panzer Grenadier divisions and Panzer divisions are essentially the same for me, meaning they have the same composition. Why so? Because of flexibility. 1 PzGren rgt/bgd, 1 Pz-rgt/bgd, plus optional assets. Beautiful, flexible. Works in game very well, especially when you have to attack at 6 different points in GC East.

Early war German Panzer divisions had 3 regiments of tanks - reduced to 2 later, joined into one brigade.
And so, 1 unit of tanks, perhaps overstrenghtened, is a tank brigade containing 2 regiments. Joining it is a Panzergrenadier regiment. If you wish, you may add a pionier unit as an assault engineer battalion, a recon unit, or an assault gun battery - BUT NOT ALL OF THESE TO EVERY DIVISION, plus, it's better to keep those assets independent so you can send them wherever needed.
For the Panzergrenadier divisions, I'll also use 1 tank unit and 1 motorized infantry unit, I'll just christen the tanks as a regiment instead of a brigade.

Secondly, I use a hell of a lot of army/corps level assets, which is both historically correct and allows me to send them whenever needed. These units are designated with a ''H.'' in front of their name, meaning ''Heeres'' (''Army's'' --> as in attached to the army).
I'm currently at half of GC43 East. My army has about 50 units, and I think around 12 are army-attached artillery, self-propelled, assault guns, and field arty. Only my 2 favourite divisions have their own assault guns, which again is historically correct.


But if you want rigid divisions like I used before (just please have some independent assets as well, it'll greatly improve your tactical flexibility and success), use 3 infantry/grenadier regiments and an artillery regiment for an early and mid war infantry division, use 2 gebirgsjaegere and 1 arty for a Jaeger-division (light infantry), 2 grenadier 43 regiments and an arty or StuG battalion for a late war Volksgrenadier division.

Armor and motorized
Early war Pz-Div. : 3 Panzer regiments, 1 PzGren, 1 arty rgt, 1 recon (really too much tanks, not enough support)
Mid war: 1/2 Panzer regiment (if using 1, name it a brigade), 1 PzGren rgt., 1 assault gun/SP arty battalion (not both)
Late war: 1/2 Pz-regiments, 1 PzGrenadiers, 1 SP FlaK battalion, 1 assault gun/SP arty/tank destroyer battalion*
(*StuG IV's are the weapon which wins wars. I love them. The ultimate support weapon.)
For a favourite division or two, add a Tiger battalion. NOT for all divisions. You can add more tigers as independent assets at army level.
SE: I roleplay them as Waffen SS, 2 PzGren regiments and 1 Pz-Rgt will constitute a real-life Waffen SS Panzer Grenadier division, the rest will all be Tigers (due to the soft cap) and named as independent heavy tank battalions.

An interesting thing were the Leichte (Light) divisions, which were essentially ad hoc created but permanently standing cocktails of cavalry, panzers, and panzergrenadiers. They were used in the early war period and eventually were all upgraded to Panzer divisions as they were deemed too weak (too few tanks, arty, heavy firepower, protection, with much mobility = not good). The beauty about them is that there was no standard table of organisation for them: you can create one from a panzer regiment, a kavallerie regiment, and a recon battalion, and another one from Pz-Grens, SP arty, and a Panzer regiment. Whatever suits your needs.

Panzergrenadiers: Early and mid war 2-3 PzGren regiments, 1 tank unit you can name as a battalion or a regiment, arty
Late war: 1-2 Pz Grenadier regiments, 1 tank regiment, 1 SP FlaK battalion, 1 assault gun/SP artillery/tank destroyer bttn



So as a resume, when we start talking about invading Russia, you would have a core of 40-50-ish units (you rotate them all to gather experience), with:
- talking from my head, but I always do it like this:
- 6-10 independent artillery regiments (105 mm and up, of all calibers)
- 2-4 independent AT units - self-propelled and towed
- 4-6 fighter squadrons (1 wing)
- 2-4 tactical bomber squadrons (1 wing)
- 2-4 strategic bomber squadrons (1 wing)
- 2-4 AA independent AA units - self-propelled and towed
- 1-4 independent engineer battalions (one of these - bridge engineers)
That's half of your army. In modern armies, the combat support and combat service support actually consist 80%, so that's not bad.

Now, say you have
1 favourite Pz division
1 favourite PzGren division
These have the full complement plus some attached units like StuG's, recon, Panzerwerfers etc.
Say these two have: 2 Pz, 1 PzGren, 1 StuG, 1 recon; 1 Pz, 2 PzGren, 1 Wurfrahmen, 1 pioniers

That leaves us with 10-20 slots to use for the grunts, the foot sloggers, the poor fu*king infantry.
Say you have 1 infantry division without motorisation for defensive missions and realism, that's 3 inf 1 arty.
1-3 motorized divisions with 2 PzGren, 1 Pz, optionally any arty/TD
1-3 Pz-Divisions with 1-2 Pz, 1 PzGren, optionally arty/TD
1 Fallschirmjager division of 3 Fallschirmjager regiments - optional

Whew, that's it. So I gave you a lot of info and the way I do it, hope it helps!

CroCop96
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Wed May 24, 2017 10:37 pm

Yrfin wrote:My Pz.Div for GC 39
PzDiv_GC39.JPG
Switchable:
- Stab (to Fi 156)
- Krads.Btl (mount/dismount)
- PaK/FlaK.Abt
- Pionier.Btl (to Brucken.Btl)
PzDiv_GC39_switch.JPG
May I ask which mod is this?

captainjack
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by captainjack » Thu May 25, 2017 3:03 am

I've just got as far as skirmishing with the Russians in 39 East using Nico's equipment file 21.

I have a motorised division (3 inf, one kradschutzen, a 75mm and a 105mm), one panzer division (originally 1B, 2D, 3E, 4C but Kercher's 38t is currently replacing the 1 and 2) 2 corps artillery (105s), and 2 109s, 1 110 and a HE111. The SE division is 1 inf, Oleh Dir, one 3E, one captured artillery. Reserves include a spare fighter and strategic bomber and a mountain regiment (2 x gebirgs plus 2 SP art brought in for Modlin).

I hadn't planned it this way, but it's been interesting to plan strategy using the divisions for sets of objectives. Generally the infantry division (sometimes used as two regiments) can look after itself, but the tank division is more patchy - very independent in the open but it needs all the air support available as soon as it meets any entrenched infantry or AT. As soon as panzer grenadiers are available, I can see a structure of 3 tanks, 1 grenadier and 1 SPart, with a future goal of 2 tank 2 grenadiers and 2 SPart when there are enough core slots, or 2 tanks, 1 SPArt and 1 Grenadier if I'm a bit short.

Currently there is no proper recon (Kercher and the motorbike are good enough) and no AT or AA. While I often do without AT, I usually use AA very early on but the divisional structure has affected my thinking enough that am unwilling to drop one of my Corps artillery to free up a slot for AA at the moment.

CroCop96
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:37 am

captainjack wrote:I've just got as far as skirmishing with the Russians in 39 East using Nico's equipment file 21.

I have a motorised division (3 inf, one kradschutzen, a 75mm and a 105mm), one panzer division (originally 1B, 2D, 3E, 4C but Kercher's 38t is currently replacing the 1 and 2) 2 corps artillery (105s), and 2 109s, 1 110 and a HE111. The SE division is 1 inf, Oleh Dir, one 3E, one captured artillery. Reserves include a spare fighter and strategic bomber and a mountain regiment (2 x gebirgs plus 2 SP art brought in for Modlin).

I hadn't planned it this way, but it's been interesting to plan strategy using the divisions for sets of objectives. Generally the infantry division (sometimes used as two regiments) can look after itself, but the tank division is more patchy - very independent in the open but it needs all the air support available as soon as it meets any entrenched infantry or AT. As soon as panzer grenadiers are available, I can see a structure of 3 tanks, 1 grenadier and 1 SPart, with a future goal of 2 tank 2 grenadiers and 2 SPart when there are enough core slots, or 2 tanks, 1 SPArt and 1 Grenadier if I'm a bit short.
Nice setup! Come back in a week or so and tell me how does your army fare versus Russians in 41, regarding tactical flexibility.
Currently there is no proper recon (Kercher and the motorbike are good enough) and no AT or AA. While I often do without AT, I usually use AA very early on but the divisional structure has affected my thinking enough that am unwilling to drop one of my Corps artillery to free up a slot for AA at the moment.
I've found the recon units excellent in skirmishing and finishing off enemies - I'm about to skirmish with the Russians in '39 and I have 2 222's, both with +100 kills - one has had ZERO losses. Zero. They're better than Pz I's, on par with Pz II's and 7TP's. I'm playing on General difficulty, mind.
They're great because of their recon movement... bombard, move in with a 222 battalion, strike, fall back.

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by Yrfin » Thu May 25, 2017 6:07 pm

CroCop96 wrote:
Yrfin wrote:My Pz.Div for GC 39
May I ask which mod is this?
My own Mod. Not published yet. Still in development with my new movements types.
Shoot first. Ask questions later.

captainjack
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by captainjack » Sat May 27, 2017 11:20 pm

CroCop96 wrote:Come back in a week or so
Tactical lessons have led to reorganisation already, just before Sedan.
Panzer Division is now 2 tanks, one grenadier and either Stug 3A or the SiG.
SE division is 2 tanks (Panzer 3 plus Kerscher), 2 grenadiers, captured 105towed and a Stug 3A.
Motorised infantry 2 inf, one MG inf, one motorbike unit and 2 towed 105s. Often work as half strength regiments.
Mountain regiment (2 gebirgs no art)

Corps
2 x 105 towed, Oleh Dir (pioneer) plus another pioneer and a bridge engineer.

Air
3 Fighters, 2 tac (the 110 from Skirmishing with the Russians, and Rudel scout) and 2 strategic (Ju88 and a an HE111)

Nico's mod has 3 spotting for a 38t (Kerscher) and the motorbike has + 1 spot so I can manage without recon for now.

Already the revised Panzer divisions are the mainstay, and the air usually provides concentrated support for whichever one of these has the hardest target and largely ignores enemy air - I think that this will change in time. I am also planning a mechanized infantry unit (with half tracks to boost mobility) once I can find a good structure.

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:48 pm

That sounds like a relatively small core. Still, I like the unit organisation.

The SE division is very nice.

Just won Minsk with a DV, my army is divided like this:

1 cavalry division
2 cav regiments, 1 PZ II recon battalion (+1 move, 3 stars, very good), +1 range stug battalion, 1 assault engineer battalion (Oleh Dir) ----> my fastest and 2nd strongest division

1 light division
1 motorbike infantry rgt, 1 PZ IV rgt (Kerscher), 1 recon battalion (231, +1 move, vet 3)

1 motorised infantry division
2 grenadier regiments, 1 artillery regiment (all with trucks)

1 panzer division
1 PZ III rgt, 1 PZ IV rgt, 1 grenadier rgt (251 halftracks), Sturmpanzer I battalion, 50mm PaK38 battalion
--> my strongest division, comparable to your ''SE division''

attached units:
2 Char B1 battalions, 1 Matilda btt, 1 Somua S35 btt; just sold the T34 from Minsk as unnecessary
2 Panzerjaeger I battalions
2 paratroop regiments
3 SfH 150 mm, 1 170 mm, 1 nebelwerfer
2 assault engineer battalions
2 SS regiments


Luftwaffe assets:

4 fighter wings
2 Me 110 wings (one is Lent)
2 StuKa wings (one is Uber Rudel)
-- sold the unter Rudel
3 strategic bomber wings
1 FlaK 88 battalion, 1 7/1 battalion

Probably forgot something minor, but the basic layout is here.

With this army, I massacred the Russians in Minsk and I came to Minsk on turn 8/20.

As to my tactics, my Panzerdivision spearheads the most difficult route, the Kavallerie division performs large flanking maneuvers, the captured heavy tanks aid in breakthroughs where needed. The Panzergrenadier and the Leichte divisions advance on the rest of the front, always aided by attached army elements. Haven't had luck with SE tanks, haven't received a single unit, so I keep selling all SE infantry I get except my 2 veteran regiments. Once I acquire a tank regiment, I'm going to form a Waffen SS division with them. For now, SE infantry is used as elite support.
Well, at least I had luck with 3 or 4 +1 movement heroes for my pioniers and grenadiers. I find that more useful than if I had an additional SE tank regiment... for now.

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by captainjack » Tue May 30, 2017 6:00 am

There are two Panzer Divisions - 2nd has a 2D and a 4D, while 5th Panzer has a 4D and a 3F so the core is not quite as small as it first looked.

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Wed May 31, 2017 9:44 am

captainjack wrote:There are two Panzer Divisions - 2nd has a 2D and a 4D, while 5th Panzer has a 4D and a 3F so the core is not quite as small as it first looked.
Ah, in that case, a very nice core!

I'm trying to save up as much money as possible - currently I'm on the Moscow mission, 40k+ prestige. No replacements in missions, no unnecessary elite replacements, and a big thing - I haven't bought a single tank unit.
I have the 2 starting Panzer I units - one is a Pz III, the other a Pz IV; and Kerscher's regiment, which also uses Pz IV's. 2 captured B1's, 1 Matilda battalion, 1 S35, sold the Minsk T34 and the other T34 (from Kiev); 2 KV1 battalions. Still haven't had a single SE tank drop -.-
That's 9 tank units, which is fair enough. The KV1's will stay KV1's, captured French tanks will become Panthers or Tigers, the Matilda will be put to reserve and converted to a Panther if it doesn't get a movement hero; if it does, a Tiger.

My dedicated AT assets are 2 Panzerjaeger 1 battalions, 1 PaK38 battalion; occassionally FlaK 88, 1 StuKa squadron with +2 def, 3 Me110 squadrons (1 is Rudel's), and I find them satisfactory.
Of course, the artillery helps a lot, as well as my 4-5 Pioniere/Grenadiere with movement heroes (aside from Oleh Dir - had a lot of luck here).

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by captainjack » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:18 pm

[/quote] Come back in a week or so and tell me how does your army fare versus Russians in 41, regarding tactical flexibility. [quote]

The quick version: Just finished 41 East. 4 or 6 units per division still seems to be useful, and division structure helps planning and focus on objectives.

The longer version:
The two Panzer divisions with two tanks (one with two Char b, one with a 3J1 and a 4F2), one grenadier in half track and SPArt (Sturmpanzer just upgraded to the SIg33 or the Stug3) are still proving very useful for almost every situation. A 2 tank, 2 infantry unit formed from the Corps reserve pool sometimes helps out.

The original motorised infantry division is now in half tracks except the motorbike unit, with a towed 105 and a 4-range nebelwerfer. The nebelwerfer is probably going to be re-allocated when the Specials division gets formed and replaced with a towed 105. This is a still a very useful unit alongside the panzer divisions. I expected I would often split it into separate regiments, but it works so well as a single team I rarely do this.

The SE division is currently 4 tanks (SE3J1, SE4F2, Rondorf 2G, Kerscher 38g),2 SE grenadiers, a Stug 3 and the towed Polish 105. It seems that 4 or 6 units is the best size for a division, I am thinking about forming one all-SE division (plus guns) and a Specials division (Rondorf, Kerscher, Oleh Dir and Winbirger plus guns). The Specials will get the mechanised infantry's long range nebelwerfer, though I'm currently unsure whether a 4 range werfer or a 3 range Stug will be more useful or what the second gun should be.

Corps units - two move hero 17cm guns (which have 4 range in Nico's mod), Bridgies, pioneers, mountain regiment (2) and parachute regiment (2) and a reserve pool of captured tanks.

Luftwaffe is either 2 fighters, 110 Rudel, one Do217 (+3 attack hero) or 3 fighters and an extra (hero free) Do217.

Still no recon - 38 series have spot 3 in Nico's mod so Kerscher with 5 spotting and the mechanised infantry's spot hero motorbike unit
are good enough. And still no AA which is unusual for me, though I think 42 is time to start making space for two units so they can build up experience for later.

One of the things I noticed quite early on was that using a divisional structure has changed my thinking. I look at the strategic map and the number of unit slots and think in terms of which divisions would best meet the various objectives. It also keeps focus on objectives during the game and ensuring that the whole division is fighting as one.

Also, when I get heroes I review their fit with unit type. Eg move hero artillery becomes towed, range hero is usually converted to a shorter ranged unit (Stug or nebelwerfer, or SPAA if I had any) but also best fit within the divisional structure, so if I got two infantry with move hero they would probably become grenadiers for the panzer divisions. If another two units I would probably switch some units around so I had a fast mountain regiment.

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by ycloon » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:37 am

Here's my contribution from my current playthrough

Finished Stalingrad Ruins (GC'42E) with a corps of 2 panzer divisions, 1 mountain division and support units.
[My game play parameters: difficulty: general, dice chess, scripted heroes disbanded after the scenario, soft cap turned off, most captured units disbanded except for selected units (see below)]

I use the 1943 orders of battle for the 1st Panzer Division and the 1st Gebirgsjaeger Division to organize my forces.

Each playable unit is assumed to be a battalion/ abteilung.

Panzer division 1:
Recon: 1 x SdKfz 232
Panzer regiment: 1 SE Pz IVG, 2 x Pz IVG
Panzer grenadier regiment: 1 x SE Grenadier (SdKfz 251/1), 2 x Infantry (either Opel blitz or on foot)
Panzer pioniere abteilung: 1 x Pioniere (SdKfz 251/1)
Panzerjaeger abteilung: 1 x StuG IIIF
Artillery regiment: 1 x 10.5cm leFH, 1 x 17cm K18, 1 x Wufrahmen

(in the second panzer division, there is one additional 10.5cm le FH)

Gebirgsjaeger division:
Recon: 1 x SdKfz 232
Gebirgsjaeger regiment: 1 x SE Gebirgsjaeger, 2 x Gebirgsjaeger (all on foot)
Pioniere abteilung: 1 x Pioniere (SdKfz 251/1)
Artillery regiment: 2 x 10.5cm leFH, 1 x 17cm K18
Panzerjaeger abteilung: 1 x StuG IIIF

Corps level support units:
1 x KV-1B
3 x StuG IIIF or IIIF/8
1 x 7.5cm PaK 40
1 x StuG IIIB
1 x SU-122(r) (used as self-propelled artillery mostly)

Luftwaffe support units:
Self-propelled anti-air battery: 4 x SdKfz 7/1
Fighter wing: 4 x BF 109F
Tactical bomber wing: 1 x BF 110, 2 x Ju 87D
Level bomber wing: 1 x He 111H, 1 x Ju 88A

Because each division is fairly large, I do not typically deploy every unit in each scenario due to tactical requirements and experience farming. A division is sometimes divided into smaller battle groups tasked with different objectives. The mountain division is often broken up and its elements used to reinforced the panzer divisions. I find that in the early DLCs, the gebirgsjaeger's special move is very valuable in scenarios with mountainous terrain.

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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:52 am

captainjack wrote:
Come back in a week or so and tell me how does your army fare versus Russians in 41, regarding tactical flexibility.

The quick version: Just finished 41 East. 4 or 6 units per division still seems to be useful, and division structure helps planning and focus on objectives.

The longer version:
The two Panzer divisions with two tanks (one with two Char b, one with a 3J1 and a 4F2), one grenadier in half track and SPArt (Sturmpanzer just upgraded to the SIg33 or the Stug3) are still proving very useful for almost every situation. A 2 tank, 2 infantry unit formed from the Corps reserve pool sometimes helps out.

The original motorised infantry division is now in half tracks except the motorbike unit, with a towed 105 and a 4-range nebelwerfer. The nebelwerfer is probably going to be re-allocated when the Specials division gets formed and replaced with a towed 105. This is a still a very useful unit alongside the panzer divisions. I expected I would often split it into separate regiments, but it works so well as a single team I rarely do this.

The SE division is currently 4 tanks (SE3J1, SE4F2, Rondorf 2G, Kerscher 38g),2 SE grenadiers, a Stug 3 and the towed Polish 105. It seems that 4 or 6 units is the best size for a division, I am thinking about forming one all-SE division (plus guns) and a Specials division (Rondorf, Kerscher, Oleh Dir and Winbirger plus guns). The Specials will get the mechanised infantry's long range nebelwerfer, though I'm currently unsure whether a 4 range werfer or a 3 range Stug will be more useful or what the second gun should be.

Corps units - two move hero 17cm guns (which have 4 range in Nico's mod), Bridgies, pioneers, mountain regiment (2) and parachute regiment (2) and a reserve pool of captured tanks.

Luftwaffe is either 2 fighters, 110 Rudel, one Do217 (+3 attack hero) or 3 fighters and an extra (hero free) Do217.

Still no recon - 38 series have spot 3 in Nico's mod so Kerscher with 5 spotting and the mechanised infantry's spot hero motorbike unit
are good enough. And still no AA which is unusual for me, though I think 42 is time to start making space for two units so they can build up experience for later.

One of the things I noticed quite early on was that using a divisional structure has changed my thinking. I look at the strategic map and the number of unit slots and think in terms of which divisions would best meet the various objectives. It also keeps focus on objectives during the game and ensuring that the whole division is fighting as one.

Also, when I get heroes I review their fit with unit type. Eg move hero artillery becomes towed, range hero is usually converted to a shorter ranged unit (Stug or nebelwerfer, or SPAA if I had any) but also best fit within the divisional structure, so if I got two infantry with move hero they would probably become grenadiers for the panzer divisions. If another two units I would probably switch some units around so I had a fast mountain regiment.
I like your core as before, but I kept my smaller, not as accurate divisional organisation for flexibility.
4 Panzer regiments, in a single division, on a single axis of advance sound like overkill to me. I would much rather use 1-2 Panzer Rgt(s), 1 heavy tank battalion, and 1 tank destroyer battalion. Unless you break them up, of course, but since I don't like to do that, I generally keep smaller divisions except my 2 favourite ones, which have 5-6-7 units (regular organisation plus always something attached to them)

The smaller division templates work for me as I always form 2-division-strong Kampfgruppen of various attached units.
I think 3 fighters are not enough in the long term, I have 5 squadrons. Plus, 3 Me110 squadrons (one is Rudel - absolutely barbaric versus everything). I also have the StuKa sqd. from the very first mission, as well as 1 sqd. of each type of strategic bomber. I really like using Luftwaffe support... curious to know how do you cope with the increased Red Air Force presence in '42?

Ditto for me on the planning as well as heroes! Move artillery heroes are towed, ranged always get converted to StuG's as they are the main support units for my armored advances (can't wait to get StuG IV's). I don't use the Nebelwerfers that much, although they're great, I prefer the longer range of regular towed arty, and any and all range arty will become StuG's.
Had plenty of luck with movement heroes on infantry in this playthrough, all are Pioniere or Grenadiere!

Beginning Kharkov '42, 52+3 units, 50 023 prestige.
Finally received a SE Panzer unit, they became the Panzer regiment of the Waffen-SS Polizei division.
I have 2 Char B1, 1 Matilda and one Somua S35 battalions, vetted, will remain in the reserve until upgraded to Tigers.
Disbanded all captured T34/40's as they're not that good.
Retained the captured T34/41 as it's gut.
The 3 KV1 battalions are the spearheads of my advances. 1 KV1a battalion will be upgraded to Tigers, and the KV1B's are good enough and might remain what they are indefinitely.
As to my divisional structure, just like in real life, the Light divisions were deemed too weak and were converted to Panzer divisions. Likewise, Cavalry and Kradschutzen are too vulnerable and have been converted to Infanterie. They have some spotting heroes, so they hold their Cavalry esprit de corps... In '42 all infantry and motorized inf. (schutzen) were renamed to Grenadiers. I also renamed the cavalrymen into dragoons, which would be plausible due to the aforementioned fact.

1. Kavallerie is now cavalry in name only, Panzergrenadier division in reality... They are the fastest of my divisions, but pack a punch due to the armored support and veterancy. They have:
2 Dragoner-Rgt (regular Wehrmacht Infanterie)
1 Sturmpionier-Abteilung (Oleh Dir, enough said. Assault engineers.)
1 Aufklarung-Abteilung (vet 3 PZ IIf, +1 move)
1 StuG-Abt. (+1 range, love it)

Leichte division was converted to 27th Panzer division (a nod towards Sven Hassel's 27th Panzer regiment :D)
1 Panzer-Regiment (Kerscher)
1 Pz-Grenadier rgt. (Wehr Infanterie, for mobility and tradition)
1 Recon battalion (vet 3 SdKfz 232, +1 move)
Semi-permanently attached: SiG 33 battalion, Pionier-Abteilung (+1 move)

8th Panzer division:
1 Pz IVF2 regiment
1 Pz IIIJ/1 regiment
1 Pz-Grenadier rgt (+1 move)

The PzII and Gebirgsjager gifted in one of the missions in '41 are the fictional 1. Sturm-Division (Assault division). Why? Because the Pz II was converted to the Flammpanzer II :D

9. Panzergrenadier-Division has:
2 Panzer-Grenadier regiments (+1 attack; +1 attack, +3 defense)
1 PaK-Abt. (PaK40, no heroes yet)

SS-Division Polizei has:
SS-Rgt Polizei (Grenadiers)
SS-Pz-Rgt Polizei (Pz IV F2)

Now, those divisions seem weak, and have no permanently attached artillery.
We come to my corps assets...
AA:
2 FlaK 88 battalions
1 self-propelled 7/1 battalions

Artillery: - the queen of battle
1 105 mm battalion (captured Polish), 2 15 cm battalions, 1 17 cm, 1 NbWerfer 21cm, 1 StuGIIIb battalion (plus 1 Sturmpanzer battalion attached to the 27th Panzer)

AT: 1 StuG III battalion, 1 Marder battalion

Heavy armor battalions (schwere Panzer-Abteilungen):

2 Char B1, 1 Matilda (reserve)
1 KV1A, 2 KV1B (the main breakthrough units)


Line assets:1 Somua battalion (reserve)
1 T34/41 battalion (usually attached to the 1st Cavalry division, named as H. Ersatz-Pz-Abt. x (tank training and replacement battalion x))
2 pionier regiments (both have +1 move heroes)
2 Fallschirmjager regiments
1 SS-Regiment Nord (SE Grenadiers, when I get an another SE Pz unit, they will form a Panzer division with them)

Luftwaffe assets:
1 wing of 5 Me109 squadrons, vetted, great
1 wing of 3 Me110 squadrons, 1 of them is Rudel
1 independent StuKa squadron
1 wing of 3 strategic bomber squadrons

That's my core, and so, how do I do it?

The 2 ''main'' offensive forces are the 1st Cavalry and the 8th Panzer.
The 1st Cav usually goes on a flank, through difficult terrain. They normally get some support, some/all of the following: a heavy tank battalion, a tank destroyer battalion, a towed arty battalion, a tank battalion.

The 8th Panzer, with their 2 Panzer regiments, are the kings of open terrain. They will usually get a pioneer battalion, and a heavy tank battalion.

The third axis of advance (if it exists) is carried by one or more of the smaller divisions, like the SS-Polizei, 27th Panzer or 9. Panzer-Grenadier, depending on terrain, enemy forces etc. They will usually go towards less important objectives, but as I said, my troops are flexible, and any division could take up any task, provided with the assets they lack, due to my strong corps-attached contingent.
The smaller divisions will generally not be broken up into individual units, rather combined into a small corps-sized battlegroup.
So, to conclude, each of my advance vectors will always have at least SOME heavy tanks, assault engineers, tanks, assault arty, tank destroyers, towed arty, and infantry, in various quantities, which means that they can engage any type of enemy forces.
My air cover is usually abundant, rarely do I enter a mission without 4 of my 5 fighter wings as air superiority is essential. Later, in '43, I will deploy 1-2 FlaK88 battalions, and I will buy a second self-propelled flak battalion, but for now, my fighters can deal with any and all enemy aircraft. As to other air forces, I will usually go for 1-2 strategic bombers, and 1-2 ME110's as they're great all-round when vetted.

CroCop96
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:08 pm

ycloon wrote:Here's my contribution from my current playthrough

Finished Stalingrad Ruins (GC'42E) with a corps of 2 panzer divisions, 1 mountain division and support units.
[My game play parameters: difficulty: general, dice chess, scripted heroes disbanded after the scenario, soft cap turned off, most captured units disbanded except for selected units (see below)]

I use the 1943 orders of battle for the 1st Panzer Division and the 1st Gebirgsjaeger Division to organize my forces.

Each playable unit is assumed to be a battalion/ abteilung.

Panzer division 1:
Recon: 1 x SdKfz 232
Panzer regiment: 1 SE Pz IVG, 2 x Pz IVG
Panzer grenadier regiment: 1 x SE Grenadier (SdKfz 251/1), 2 x Infantry (either Opel blitz or on foot)
Panzer pioniere abteilung: 1 x Pioniere (SdKfz 251/1)
Panzerjaeger abteilung: 1 x StuG IIIF
Artillery regiment: 1 x 10.5cm leFH, 1 x 17cm K18, 1 x Wufrahmen

(in the second panzer division, there is one additional 10.5cm le FH)

Gebirgsjaeger division:
Recon: 1 x SdKfz 232
Gebirgsjaeger regiment: 1 x SE Gebirgsjaeger, 2 x Gebirgsjaeger (all on foot)
Pioniere abteilung: 1 x Pioniere (SdKfz 251/1)
Artillery regiment: 2 x 10.5cm leFH, 1 x 17cm K18
Panzerjaeger abteilung: 1 x StuG IIIF

Corps level support units:
1 x KV-1B
3 x StuG IIIF or IIIF/8
1 x 7.5cm PaK 40
1 x StuG IIIB
1 x SU-122(r) (used as self-propelled artillery mostly)

Luftwaffe support units:
Self-propelled anti-air battery: 4 x SdKfz 7/1
Fighter wing: 4 x BF 109F
Tactical bomber wing: 1 x BF 110, 2 x Ju 87D
Level bomber wing: 1 x He 111H, 1 x Ju 88A

Because each division is fairly large, I do not typically deploy every unit in each scenario due to tactical requirements and experience farming. A division is sometimes divided into smaller battle groups tasked with different objectives. The mountain division is often broken up and its elements used to reinforced the panzer divisions. I find that in the early DLCs, the gebirgsjaeger's special move is very valuable in scenarios with mountainous terrain.
I like your core very much, it's a bit different from mine, but seems sweet.
How much prestige do you have?
The Gebirgsjaeger division is especially appealing to me, never tried anything similar.
However, in the end, we are somewhat on the same terms, as your divisions are large, combined-arms, and self sufficient; and mine are smaller but they always have attached corps troops and are in the end equal to yours, only the attached troops are not formally part of them for flexibility in various missions.
Too bad you disband the captured KV1's, but you'll make up for it now, there are KV85's to be captured, you might as well use them ;)
As to prestige, I also like using solely German tanks, but for realism and prestige saving, I generally don't disband the Beute-Panzers - as you can see, they comprise most of my tank forces. I converted all of my tanks to PzIVF2's in my previous playthrough, but that was a huge prestige waste, and I upgraded half of them to Tigers/Panthers 6 missions later anyway. I have only 3 PzIV battalions, and in the future, I plan to have maximally 4-5. All the other tanks will be directly upgraded to Tigers or Panthers. Saves a lot of money in the long run.

Your disbanding of gifted heroes is painful to me, but very realistic, they are somewhat OP. I salute you on that.

Buffalohump
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by Buffalohump » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:13 am

I am getting ready to restart the grand campaigns at '39. After reading everybody's comments I have become more interested in having a divisional structure in the way I proceed. I plan to play at field marshal level for the first time. Currently I am leaning towards developing two Brigades per division with the composition of 1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 antitank, and 1 artillery battalions per brigade. I also plan on having divisional support units of 1 heavy artillery, 1 heavy anti aircraft, 1 Pioneer, and 1 recon battalion per division. After I have established two divisions minimum for my Corps I intend to develop 1 each independent Regiments of tanks, artillery, antiaircraft, and infantry with 2 battalions each. For Luftwaffe support I intend to only purchase 2 Strategic bombers as I will start and be gifted all the fighter and tactical support I intend to develop. I know this is not historical make up of the German divisions during WW II. I am hoping to develop for myself a structural organization that I can maintain through out all campaigns and still remain flexible enough to deal with tactical situations as they develop in game. Any comments and advice will be most welcome.

captainjack
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by captainjack » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:24 am

I think the key is to pick a structure that you like and stick with it for as long as it works (and for as long as you are still enjoying it) then reorganise when you need to.

I'm still more or less on my second structure of 2 tanks, one grenadier and a gun for panzer divisions, and up to 6 units for infantry or mixed divisions (typically 2 tanks 2 guns 2 infantry/pio/grenadier or 4 inf and two guns). Near the end of 42 East, the divisions all seem to have a bit of a specialisation (almost a bit of a personality).

However, the Russians have just shown me at Tatsinskaya that there is much room for improvement but I have yet to determine if the problems were due to the divisional structure, the equipment or the general. I have a nasty suspicion that the last one is more likely.

Let us know how you get on.

CroCop96
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by CroCop96 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:25 pm

Buffalohump wrote:I am getting ready to restart the grand campaigns at '39. After reading everybody's comments I have become more interested in having a divisional structure in the way I proceed. I plan to play at field marshal level for the first time. Currently I am leaning towards developing two Brigades per division with the composition of 1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 antitank, and 1 artillery battalions per brigade. I also plan on having divisional support units of 1 heavy artillery, 1 heavy anti aircraft, 1 Pioneer, and 1 recon battalion per division. After I have established two divisions minimum for my Corps I intend to develop 1 each independent Regiments of tanks, artillery, antiaircraft, and infantry with 2 battalions each. For Luftwaffe support I intend to only purchase 2 Strategic bombers as I will start and be gifted all the fighter and tactical support I intend to develop. I know this is not historical make up of the German divisions during WW II. I am hoping to develop for myself a structural organization that I can maintain through out all campaigns and still remain flexible enough to deal with tactical situations as they develop in game. Any comments and advice will be most welcome.
Sounds like an excellent brigade structure, pretty strong all around. Yeah, a bit inaccurate, reminds of modern-day combined arms brigades, but if it suits you, do so!

I would go for at least 4 Corps attached artillery units, as well as at least 2 Pionier regiments. It will help a lot.

Why don't you want a strong Luftwaffe?
Firstly, the Stukas and, to some extent, veteran Me110's, are your best antitank assets in '39-'40.
Secondly, even if you don't like to rely too much on them (like me, I also prefer arty + Pz III/IV + Panzerjager I + Pioniere/Grenadiere), for me, at least maintaining air superiority is essential so that enemy bombers don't bomb you to hell, and pesky enemy fighters don't strafe your columns. Here, the FlaK support is lacking, as you have to deploy at least 4 units (say, a mobile flak and an 88 battalion to each of the two spearheads) to counter, not effectively wipe out, enemy aircraft, while you could just deploy 1-2 more fighters and thus save 2 slots for frontline ground units.
Thirdly, once you reach '42-'43, you will need experienced planes, and a lot of them - again, if you won't rely on flak troops. However, that would be very detrimental in my opinion, as enemy air forces would swarm your little Luftwaffe and destroy those experienced, albeit few planes that you've been nurturing since Poland.

To conclude, I think your core design is good, you might add more corps-level support assets, but I strongly advise you to buy at least 2 Me109's, so that you have 4-5 at the start of '42. Regarding bombers, 2 strategic ones will be alright - never cross upgrade them due to huge costs, buy a Do17 squadron, because it gets upgraded to the excellent Do217, and a Heinkel squadron. Junkers is ok, but the 2nd variant is the weakest of all 3 2nd variants, so it's not that good in my opinion.

Buffalohump
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Re: Playable Divisions & Battalions

Post by Buffalohump » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:50 pm

Thanks everyone for there advice and I will consider it well as I get ready to play.
To answer you directly CroCop96, it is not that I want a weak Luftwaffe. I will start '39 with 1-109 and 1-Stuka. I will immediately be gifted another Stuka and by the end of the 41 campaign if all goes as planned will have a Luftwaffe of 3 fighter, 4 tactical, and 2 strategic aircraft. Through both campaign paths I will be gifted additional aircraft as well. I played through the east campaigns to mid 45 at General and am currently at Liege on the western campaign. In both cases I purchased numerous aircraft and feel like I tried to maintain too large of air cores. In most instances I tend to deploy a large air force, destroy the incoming enemy aircraft and then struggle on the ground with a weaker ground force. I agree with you about the Do-217 however I intend to start both strategic bombers as Ju-88s and take the prestige hit at upgrade. The Do-17 just has too short of range and payload. I lost my saves for the east campaigns and it is my intention to restart at '39 to build an army to go east. I have found as I am finishing up the west campaigns that I very much enjoy the defensive battles. Please bear with me as I am at work. I am still fleshing out my Corps T.O.&E and will present it for review and advice later today.

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