Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Design, Panzer Corps Moderators

Post Reply
CroCop96
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:34 pm

Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by CroCop96 » Sun May 28, 2017 4:53 pm

As stated above, I was thinking about turning the unit into 110's. It would no longer need to be babysitted, would gain more initiative, better spotting, for 75% of the attack, which is still bestial.

I saved and tried it out versus a couple of Soviet units at Smolensk - the prediction actually said that the 110 would inflict more losses upon an enemy I16 wing than my veteran Me109 wing, which it did. Attacks versus ground units were still devastating. I think this is a worthy trade, what do you guys think?

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2631
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by goose_2 » Sun May 28, 2017 8:47 pm

CroCop96 wrote:As stated above, I was thinking about turning the unit into 110's. It would no longer need to be babysitted, would gain more initiative, better spotting, for 75% of the attack, which is still bestial.

I saved and tried it out versus a couple of Soviet units at Smolensk - the prediction actually said that the 110 would inflict more losses upon an enemy I16 wing than my veteran Me109 wing, which it did. Attacks versus ground units were still devastating. I think this is a worthy trade, what do you guys think?
I am curious, I have considered this as well.
As a Junkers it will typically hit for 8 - 9 points of damage on tanks, is that the same in the ME-110?
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

CroCop96
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:34 pm

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by CroCop96 » Mon May 29, 2017 8:05 am

goose_2 wrote: I am curious, I have considered this as well.
As a Junkers it will typically hit for 8 - 9 points of damage on tanks, is that the same in the ME-110?
Almost the same! Tried it out a bit, it does 6-9 damage, 7 on average. However, like I said, it deals higher or equal damage to an enemy Polikarpov I-16 fighter wing than my veteran 109's, tested it a couple of times! Not that much relevant later on (versus MiG's, Yak's) due to the Ishak's poor initiative and stats, but I think it will be able to fight against later Soviet fighters as well due to the high attack and veterancy initiative boni.
For now, I kept the Stuka, but I plan to turn it into a 110 in GC42 East (as soon as the VVS starts fielding serious numbers of serious planes). The benefits outweigh the 20% lower attack versus ground units in my opinion (stats wise it's more than 20% lower, but due to limited chess + +9 attack bonus + veterancy, it's not so much lower)

hugh2711
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 583
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:45 pm

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by hugh2711 » Mon May 29, 2017 12:31 pm

I convert strudel fighter/bomber as soon as I get him. I upgrade him as soon as upgrades are available. I rarely have to replace strength due to his high defence and he still retains his one shot kill/near kill ability for ground units when converted. I would rarley attack a dedicated fighter with him but use him to finish off weak ones. In the later dlc's I find that he isnt as strong for attacking as a heroed up dedicated fighter of your own but very often he still is stronger than an inexperienced dedicated fighter. when he gets a couple of heroes himself it is even better.

proline
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by proline » Mon May 29, 2017 9:37 pm

It's hard to argue against moving him to the 110 series. That essentially frees up a slot as he no longer needs a fighter escort, while making him much more versatile for only a small loss of damage output. That said, I sometimes keep him as a Ju-87 anyways, because if you over strength him a bit he can absolutely annihilate the Russian heavy tanks. Then I switch him over to the Fw 190 line in 1943. By that time the Ju-87 is pretty vulnerable to the improved soviet fighters, whereas the Fw-190 is not. In that form he doesn't do too well against heavy tanks, but he contributes a lot in the air.

Sourdust
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:34 am

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by Sourdust » Tue May 30, 2017 12:24 am

Yes, absolutely. The ability to kill bombers and finish off weakened enemy fighters makes him far more versatile, and he doesn't need fighter escort most of the time. I'm currently playing him through Gradn Campaign west. In a Me410 he's a monster. Might shift him to Fw190 once I reach 1944, we'll see.

captainjack
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1551
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by captainjack » Tue May 30, 2017 5:59 am

I usually convert Rudel to a 110 almost as soon as I get him. He can survive unescorted for quite a while (usually into 44) and the conversion doesn't have a big effect on the attack stats, plus the ability to destroy unescorted bombers or damaged fighters is very useful. The extra spotting is also handy.

hurly
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:43 am

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by hurly » Tue May 30, 2017 8:56 am

I was not really pleased with the conversion to a ME 410, but that might have to do with the Heroes I got for Rudel in my finished GC East Run (did start a few others but there was also some new Content available so I abandonded a few midway through)

In the finished Run I was "lucky" and got an DEF+3 and later an ATT+2 Hero so Rudel was not only over-overpowered but almost invincible as well. At First Glance thus is an Argument pro Me110 One might Add, but I Used Rudel as AA Buster as a Primary Task. Without overstrength he could go in on an AA Gun mostly One Shot it an Take Minor Damage from anything the Soviets could bring and no Need for an Escort as well. Very handsome in a few Hard Scenarios (eg Oboyan you can take out the AA easily and then it was pretty Easy to soften the Defense) A Me410 could not do that for me. (Tested it in the Alternative Branches of the Campaign. Do something on These Scenarios quite often as I want to See anything, but can Experiment a little Bit as I know they won't be long-term decisions)

Although Not too pleased with the FW190 Conversion, but the DO335 made a big Impression on me.
Very much can do anything alone, pretty tough was AA especially the unavoidable Mobile AA it was a Major Force in the latter Stages of 45 (This is also True for the Experimental DO335 you get in the West Campaign.)

I know you can't Really Plan Heroes Awarded, but if you See the right Combos my Idea would be to Keep the Stuka as long as possible and then go for the DO335. You get plenty of Fighters along your way and Air Superiority is usually Not a Problem.
Also Enemy Air Raids are pretty predictable. (Rule of thumb First Wave Early on then the Next Wave Turn 5 or 6 and a 3rd One at Turn 9 or 10 thats usually the pattern. On some Really long Scenarios sometimes late Attacks around 13 and very rare around 18 to 20 (These can be Units that are passive until pulled by a trigger I'm not sure about these late attacks)

I would also recommend to use the Rudel Ammo only on Value Targets if possible. That would be in my Book AA and Arty behind Entrenchments way before Fighters that expose themselves for a kill anyway. Comes down to style of Play. Which Evolves all the Time for me. Long gone are the days of fielding Tank Heavy Squads, I'm also drifting Away From Air Based Attacks.
Right Now I have the idea to go with more 88 Guns as All Purpose Front Line Units Backed up by Arty.
Don't know if that will Work, but thats the Challenge especially to overcome the Lack of Mobility.
I have Visions of a 88 Frontline (with Full overstrength, Backed by StuGs and Overstrength Arty). These could be hard to Crack especially with Movement Heroes

Ok before I Drag the Rudel Discussion completely Into a wrong direction, I still want to Add Another Idea.

The Lent (Att+1,Ini+6) Me110 can become a very effective Stuka for AA Annihilation as well. Tried that on an Alternate Branch as well and while it is no Rudel he is still a Force. Have Not had a Big Defense Hero on that Unit, but would be nice to hear From someone who is that lucky, how that Works out.

captainjack
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1551
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by captainjack » Tue May 30, 2017 9:40 am

hurly wrote:I have Visions of a 88 Frontline
I've not tried that much 88 yet, but an 88 and a mobile quad flak are pretty good to about 41/42 and allow you to work with only two or 3 fighters, a 110 and a strategic bomber. A move hero on the 88 and range on the quad flak are pretty handy as well, but remember that the main job of the AA is defending valuable (overstrength) units - preferably while themselves overstrength so they have a chance of one-shotting attackers (so the next one comes in and takes a big defensive hit . This makes them more effective, gets them multiple kills and good experience.

hurly
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:43 am

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by hurly » Tue May 30, 2017 11:34 am

captainjack wrote:
hurly wrote:I have Visions of a 88 Frontline
I've not tried that much 88 yet, but an 88 and a mobile quad flak are pretty good to about 41/42 and allow you to work with only two or 3 fighters, a 110 and a strategic bomber. A move hero on the 88 and range on the quad flak are pretty handy as well, but remember that the main job of the AA is defending valuable (overstrength) units - preferably while themselves overstrength so they have a chance of one-shotting attackers (so the next one comes in and takes a big defensive hit . This makes them more effective, gets them multiple kills and good experience.

Don't get me wrong, that 88 heavy strategy can be a doomed thing right away.

But I'm always looking for different ways to solve the Puzzle.
That may not be the most efficient strategy at all, but it is a very rewarding feeling to get it done differently (well that pretty much sums up my whole life somehow :lol: ) Doing the Italian Challenge on Rommel was nice, doing the Italian Challenge on Rommel selling off all German stuff and stick with the Allied Capturable felt great.
But I think you know what I'm talking about as you followed the Italian Challenge AAR quite actively and came up with a few interesting idea as well in the discussion.


Has nothing to do with the Rudel Conversion in general, but the Idea to convert Rudel into a ME110 basically goes in the same direction, so I think it's ok to be a bit offtopic here
so sorry folks for the sideshow

CroCop96
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:34 pm

Re: Turning Uber Rudel into ME 110 - opinions

Post by CroCop96 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:50 am

I prefer the artillery or strat bombers for dealing with AA (in case of a good, major enemy defensive line - in case of a minor obstacle, of course, flanking with a couple of units, a Panzer or a Panzergrenadier division, will suffice).
Regardless of initiative, great attack, or a possible defensive bonus, I dislike using the tactical bombers haphazardly. A lot of things can go wrong, starting from a bad dice roll (mitigated a bit by limited chess), to enemy fighters coming in en masse and your fighter protecting from the first raid only; and finally the historical lesson that Panzercorps taught me, which is: in Western Europe, most villages had a church and a beer brewery. In Russia, in case you didn't know, every single tiny f****ng village had a Communist Party headquarters AND a manned battery of 85 mm antiaircraft guns to protect the glorious Soviet kolhoz farms and tractors.
So, yeah, surprise buttsex by 2 batteries of 85mm guns is also a problem. Strategic bombers can stand that with 0-4 losses, tacticals will be lucky if they survive on 2 hitpoints.

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”