Things I would like to see fixed

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dave123
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Things I would like to see fixed

Post by dave123 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:35 pm

I really like this game, but 2 issues are almost making me want to quit.

1. Predicted combat results are crazy bad. I can't count the times that predicted combat was something like 1 attacker, 4 defender and the opposite or worse happened. This really detracts from the game. I know that combat and warfare is unpredictable in nature, but I've played lots of war games - and this is just way off what I would expect. Just a few minutes ago, I attacked a unit, and had predicted of 0 attacker, 2 defender. The defender got a rugged defense, and the actual results were 0 attacker, 3 defender. Really? How is that possible?

Chess mode in multiplayer should be easy to add, and would really help!

2. Retreats are baffling in this game. Many, Many times, I've had a unit retreat forward towards the enemy and into a river when it could have retreated backwards towards friendlies along a road. I've had games that have swung because of a few crazy retreats. This makes the loser feel cheated and makes for a hollow victory for the winner.

So my question is: Is this game still being supported? Any chance a patch will ever address these issues?

thanx

wargovichr
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by wargovichr » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:13 pm

See my previous posts on these topics!
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

ycloon
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by ycloon » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:41 am

Dave,

1) Completely agree that on random setting, the combat predictions are misleading, if not downright useless. I think it's more honest not to provide the predictions if a player is playing on random.

2) As for retreat rules, check out the FAQ section where you will find a number of threads on retreat mechanics. Here's an example: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38631

proline
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by proline » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:50 am

dave123 wrote:1. Predicted combat results are crazy bad.
No, they are not. They represent the average outcome and that's important to know when planning an attack. The randomness is there because it adds strategic depth to the game in many, many situations. With randomness on, you need to consider adverse outcomes when planning an attack. If your attack goes horribly, will you be able to bail that unit out with other nearby units? If not, do you still risk it? These are important questions a general has to ask, and they are 100% eliminated if you turn off randomness. Furthermore, with randomness you don't know exactly how many attacks it will take to accomplish your goals and that's where your ability to adapt and overcome is important. Moving troops from where the battle is going well to where it is going badly is important.

I get it. Its' frustrating if the predicted result is 6-2 and you end up with 0-5, and its really frustrating when your favorite hero died because he got unlucky. If you can't handle your emotions you can certainly switch to chess mode, but I think you'd be depriving yourself of a lot of the skill of the game.
dave123 wrote:2. Retreats are baffling in this game.
No they are not. They are 100% predictable. See the link above.

ycloon
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by ycloon » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:34 pm

@proline, you make an eloquent argument for incorporating randomness, and I think that is a good gaming element in principle. However, I don't think the devs have implemented randomness well in terms of visual representation. If combat results follow a random distribution (e.g., a bell curve), then at a minimum, players should be presented with both a measure of centrality/location (e.g., mean or median) and a measure of variability (e.g., standard deviation). Better yet, graph the distribution of combat results and show that as part of combat prediction. The current set up presents just the measure of centrality, which can be misleading especially during the heat of the moment. I guess one reason why the devs did not implement a more sophisticated representation of randomness is because presenting too many parameters makes the HUD too clunky and confusing for the average player, and undermines the 'simple to play' trait that PC is supposed to inherit from PG.

hugh2711
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by hugh2711 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:43 pm

I would like to see the EXPECTED experience increase as well as the combat mechanics.

proline
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by proline » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:53 pm

Fair enough- a graph would have been nice.

shawkhan2
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by shawkhan2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:57 pm

I would like to see some practical reward for earning medals in the game. A modest increase of Attack, Defense or Initiative values would make achieving an Iron Cross or other award of some value.

captainjack
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by captainjack » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:38 pm

dave123 - I switched to using dice chess because full random was too variable for me, and +/-2 on the results leaves enough to chance to keep it interesting. As a convenient bonus, the combat predictions are much more useful on dice chess.

Rudankort has outlined the experience mechanics somewhere on the forum - it takes account of relative unit cost and experience. The experience rules favour units that do suppression attacks (artillery and strategic bombers) rather than direct attacks. I suspect it is too complex to include a meaningful figure in a tooltip.

One thing I've noticed is that the experience calculator gives the appearance of under-rewarding AA units. Last time I made it to late war with 4* AA, it was quite common to get 0 or 1 experience for taking multiple points off experienced aircraft costing 2 or 3 times the AA cost, while other ground units were gaining in almost all cases except where the target was way cheaper. It's most probably one of those things that happens all the time but I only notice for some units.

ycloon
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by ycloon » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:09 pm

I've switched to dice chess for my current playthrough as well.

I do think it is possible to incorporate experience mechanics into a graphical depiction of predicted combat outcomes. Before going into that, I think there should be a base level of randomness based on equipment/unit type, terrain, and weather. Then layer on experience and hero bonuses to modify the distribution of outcomes. For example, a highly experienced 8.8 Flak in AT mode attacking a zero experience T-34/41 in open terrain with clear weather should almost surely result in the average/expected outcome (e.g.,. 8 damage to T-34, 2 damage to 8.8 Flak). On the other hand, if two equally experienced units with comparable equipment square off (e.g., 2-star Pz IVH vs. 2-star T-34/43), then there is a greater role for randomness. If memory serves, in the current game, the randomness modifier is added after factoring in experience, initiative, weather, terrain, equipment. If true, this could be one reason for the seemingly inexplicable combat results that frustrate many players. In my little thought experiment above, experience modifiers come in after randomness. The underlying philosophy is that with experience, units become better aware of the vagaries of war and take steps to account for them in their combat operations.

As for the under-rewarding of AA units, I too have noticed a steep drop off in experience gained by my AA units. In my case, my AA units (SdKfz 7/1) are seem to be stuck at 3-stars even though I have deployed them frequently and they usually inflict significant damage on Soviet aircraft.

dave123
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by dave123 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:01 pm

thanx for your replies. I've been playing wargames since 3rd reich in the 70's. I stand my statement that this is far and away the worst game I've ever seen at predicting combat results.

I only play multiplayer, so the good advice here on switching to dice or chess mode (as I said in the first post) is not available. That's what I want fixed, add chess to multiplayer and I would be happy (or dice, even).

I will check out the link on retreats, thanx. But the fact that many times a unit retreats forward towards an enemy, into a river, when a clear retreat towards the rear was open means that, even if predictable, the retreat system is seriously flawed.

Hope I don't sound rude, that is not the intent. I respect and appreciate all replies. :)

Panzerpimp
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by Panzerpimp » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:29 pm

No. Just no. Random is good. Makes the game much more interesting and unpredictable.
Make love, not war.

HjalfnarFeuerwolf
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by HjalfnarFeuerwolf » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:29 am

I have to admit the randomness is sometimes bothering me, too. My idea would be something close to the Total War series system for automated battles: a bar in two colours indicating the strength of both sides, estimated losses for both sides and an indicator how high the probability of the estimation is (for example in Rome 2 it is spread between very high, high, medium, low, very low). So if you notice the probability of the estimated damage is low, you might drop some artillery on the enemy to increase your chances.

captainjack
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by captainjack » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:08 pm

High levels of randomness and reliable prediction are mutually incompatible: you can have randomness OR predictability but never both. That means you have to decide which matters most to you (randomness or predictability) and accept that your preference comes with a downside.

For those of us preferring a compromise, predictions are generally useful on dice chess setting. As a bonus, average dice (2,3,3,4,4,5) have been used for decades to avoid extreme results in figure gaming, so those of use who prefer dice chess can claim to be upholding a long wargaming tradition while simultaneously reducing our stress levels.

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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by CarbonatedPork » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:13 pm

Perhaps what is most bothersome is not knowing what the distribution is. The FAQ links to discussions on combat mechanic mathematics to get more info on how combat is resolved and you can get a glimpse of this math by bringing up the extended combat predictions by holding control while attacking. It would be nice for the simple combat predictions to offer the likelihood of hitting the predictions somehow, but then you wind up with visual clutter. I like the randomness. It's like poker -- there are expert mechanics at play even with the chances involved.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:47 pm

dave123 wrote: 1. Predicted combat results are crazy bad. I can't count the times that predicted combat was something like 1 attacker, 4 defender and the opposite or worse happened.
2. Retreats are baffling in this game. Many, Many times, I've had a unit retreat forward towards the enemy and into a river when it could have retreated backwards towards friendlies along a road.
Ah, but unpredictabilty realistically happens in war, and it keeps wargames fresh because a game will go differently each time we play it..:)

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:51 am

Speaking of things we'd like to see fixed, the only major thing I don't like in the game is that AA untis can move and fire in the same turn.
It seems a bit unrealistic to me because in real life planes come and go in the blink of an eye, so if planes are attacking a target a mile or two away, there's simply no time for an AA gun or SPAA to move to within firing range!

huckc
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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by huckc » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:42 pm

The OP clearly means multiplayer, which doesn't have the option to change randomness like single player does.

Do you really want to go to the trouble to play those matches and have them decided by luck rather than skill? Might as well just roll dice.

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Re: Things I would like to see fixed

Post by goose_2 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:21 pm

huckc wrote:The OP clearly means multiplayer, which doesn't have the option to change randomness like single player does.

Do you really want to go to the trouble to play those matches and have them decided by luck rather than skill? Might as well just roll dice.

I would like to see Dice Chess at least in mp nothing makes me madder when I see the enemy get a lucky shot where they have a 1% chance of killing a unit and they hit for 2 or 3 is a little ridiculous, but some chance is always part of war and do not want to see it completely stripped.
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