Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

Spaznetz
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Spaznetz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:09 pm

As a relative newcomer to the game, I'm not seeing the value of hanging on to many of the captured units.

I can always find a use for another 105mm, even if it's Polish, but beyond the collector value, I'm feeling like I'm missing the point of a Somua or a Char B1 going forward.

Maybe the more experienced people can help me out with some wisdom?

Which are the keepers and which are the ones you mothball/disband as soon as the scenario is finished? Why do you keep the ones that you do?

huckc
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:38 pm
Location: USA

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by huckc » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:29 pm

Depends on the strength of the captured unit relative to what you have available and your long-term upgrade plans. For instance you can deploy that captured Char B1 as it's pretty good and the only heavy tank you can actually have as the Germans at the time, build experience, then upgrade it to a Panther which costs the same as upgrading from a Panzer III or IV.

Mostly though it's a disband for full cost, either immediately or when you actually need the prestige.

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by goose_2 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:02 pm

This is a source of much debate.

I personally use most captured vehicles for hero farming. If they get a lousy first hero then I put them on the do not use list, as I do not need the prestige but am enjoying building the largest field of heroes in a playthrough. (Over 100 at the present)

With that said, there were some I sold pretty quickly. Both Matilda 2's, too slow.
Most T-34/40's and 41's, too weak.
KV-1A as you already have KV-1B's at that point.

The later models I plan on selling if I am able to capture, like the KV-85's and stuff like that, too many other great units.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Spaznetz
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Spaznetz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:25 pm

Thanks for the input, gents.
huckc wrote:Depends on the strength of the captured unit relative to what you have available and your long-term upgrade plans. For instance you can deploy that captured Char B1 as it's pretty good and the only heavy tank you can actually have as the Germans at the time, build experience, then upgrade it to a Panther which costs the same as upgrading from a Panzer III or IV.

Mostly though it's a disband for full cost, either immediately or when you actually need the prestige.
On my first attempt at a full GC playthrough, I used the Chars and the Matilda as meat-shields on Crete-Airborne as I was confident that they could handle the punishment and I didn't really care if they got destroyed, but otherwise they're just too slow for me.
goose_2 wrote:This is a source of much debate.

I personally use most captured vehicles for hero farming. If they get a lousy first hero then I put them on the do not use list, as I do not need the prestige but am enjoying building the largest field of heroes in a playthrough. (Over 100 at the present)

With that said, there were some I sold pretty quickly. Both Matilda 2's, too slow.
Most T-34/40's and 41's, too weak.
KV-1A as you already have KV-1B's at that point.

The later models I plan on selling if I am able to capture, like the KV-85's and stuff like that, too many other great units.
Crappy heroes is why I trashed my first playthrough and restarted. I had started a lovely collection of less-than-useful heroes: +1 Spotting on a Ju-88, +1 Initiative on 2 Stukas, and an additional +1 Movement on Oleh Dir. :? Now I just restart the turn if I get something I don't like. It may be frowned upon, but I'm not going to play all the way through Minsk'41 again just to scrap all those hours because my heroes are sub-par.

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by goose_2 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:10 pm

Spaznetz wrote:Thanks for the input, gents.



Crappy heroes is why I trashed my first playthrough and restarted. I had started a lovely collection of less-than-useful heroes: +1 Spotting on a Ju-88, +1 Initiative on 2 Stukas, and an additional +1 Movement on Oleh Dir. :? Now I just restart the turn if I get something I don't like. It may be frowned upon, but I'm not going to play all the way through Minsk'41 again just to scrap all those hours because my heroes are sub-par.
That is why I hero farm, so I can absorb the blow of a few crappy 1st heroes. ;)
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Spaznetz
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Spaznetz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 pm

goose_2 wrote:That is why I hero farm, so I can absorb the blow of a few crappy 1st heroes. ;)
Care to share your process? The awarding of heroes seems so random that I haven't a clue how you would go about farming them.

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by goose_2 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:54 pm

1939-1941 you have way more prestige available than you will need, if you play it right. You can build up experience extremely quickly on various units, so build up experience on various infantry, tanks, anti - tanks... basically everything...once you earn maximum experience on one unit substitute out fresh units to build up your overall experienced base...way more than the amount of units than you will ever use. (I have close to 90 now at the start of 1944)

Keep babying them through and if you get a lousy hero for first hero, either sell or hold on to for later in case you get desperate.

When you start getting really good units work them to maximize their experience and kill count once the experience is met continue to substitute them out so you do not get too dependent on any single unit.

This will help you build up an amazingly diverse and powerful army that is ready for any scenario...best unexpected unit 88 with +2 Movement and +2 Att. Triple heroed absolute beast. :twisted:
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Spaznetz
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Spaznetz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:22 pm

goose_2 wrote:1939-1941 you have way more prestige available than you will need, if you play it right. You can build up experience extremely quickly on various units, so build up experience on various infantry, tanks, anti - tanks... basically everything...once you earn maximum experience on one unit substitute out fresh units to build up your overall experienced base...way more than the amount of units than you will ever use. (I have close to 90 now at the start of 1944)

Keep babying them through and if you get a lousy hero for first hero, either sell or hold on to for later in case you get desperate.

When you start getting really good units work them to maximize their experience and kill count once the experience is met continue to substitute them out so you do not get too dependent on any single unit.

This will help you build up an amazingly diverse and powerful army that is ready for any scenario...best unexpected unit 88 with +2 Movement and +2 Att. Triple heroed absolute beast. :twisted:

Thanks for the advice, goose. Your method sounds similar to what I was doing in my first attempt.

Every time I would hit the XP cap on a unit, I would buy another one and work it. But when I reached '41, I looked at my core and saw that I only had a few units with heroes and they were pretty awful. I figured that I was handicapping myself by spreading the kills over so many units and that half as many units with twice as many kills would be better than the other way around.

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by goose_2 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:29 pm

Spaznetz wrote:
goose_2 wrote:1939-1941 you have way more prestige available than you will need, if you play it right. You can build up experience extremely quickly on various units, so build up experience on various infantry, tanks, anti - tanks... basically everything...once you earn maximum experience on one unit substitute out fresh units to build up your overall experienced base...way more than the amount of units than you will ever use. (I have close to 90 now at the start of 1944)

Keep babying them through and if you get a lousy hero for first hero, either sell or hold on to for later in case you get desperate.

When you start getting really good units work them to maximize their experience and kill count once the experience is met continue to substitute them out so you do not get too dependent on any single unit.

This will help you build up an amazingly diverse and powerful army that is ready for any scenario...best unexpected unit 88 with +2 Movement and +2 Att. Triple heroed absolute beast. :twisted:

Thanks for the advice, goose. Your method sounds similar to what I was doing in my first attempt.

Every time I would hit the XP cap on a unit, I would buy another one and work it. But when I reached '41, I looked at my core and saw that I only had a few units with heroes and they were pretty awful. I figured that I was handicapping myself by spreading the kills over so many units and that half as many units with twice as many kills would be better than the other way around.
Sounds like you got unlucky then, this combined with reloads when lousy ones show up should mitigate that dramatically.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Kasperlzhang
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:38 am

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Kasperlzhang » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:22 am

When you get the first T-34s in 1941, they were pretty strong compared with contemporary German tanks, let alone the 6 move.
Pity that no chance to capture later models of T-34 though.
goose_2 wrote:This is a source of much debate.

I personally use most captured vehicles for hero farming. If they get a lousy first hero then I put them on the do not use list, as I do not need the prestige but am enjoying building the largest field of heroes in a playthrough. (Over 100 at the present)

With that said, there were some I sold pretty quickly. Both Matilda 2's, too slow.
Most T-34/40's and 41's, too weak.
KV-1A as you already have KV-1B's at that point.

The later models I plan on selling if I am able to capture, like the KV-85's and stuff like that, too many other great units.

Spaznetz
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Spaznetz » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:36 pm

Kasperlzhang wrote:When you get the first T-34s in 1941, they were pretty strong compared with contemporary German tanks, let alone the 6 move.
Pity that no chance to capture later models of T-34 though.
The T-34s are strong compared to Panzer III & IV? Up to which version of the Panzers?

goose_2 wrote:Sounds like you got unlucky then, this combined with reloads when lousy ones show up should mitigate that dramatically.
I'm hoping :) I can't even seem to get my 88's or Panzerjagers to their first medals, much less to a hero :(

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by goose_2 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:57 pm

goose_2 wrote:Sounds like you got unlucky then, this combined with reloads when lousy ones show up should mitigate that dramatically.
I'm hoping :) I can't even seem to get my 88's or Panzerjagers to their first medals, much less to a hero :([/quote]

I started with 2 or 3 towed 3.7cm pak's in 39 to build them up to at least 2 stars experience, as I would mostly only give them elite replacements in my playthrough, once I achieved 2 stars on 4 or 5 anti tank units I would focus on trying for a single hero in one of those 5 units, until the StuG 3 F comes along. As the anti-tanks until that model stink, but by the time that model comes out you need some experience to best handle the enemy. (Especially on Manstein level. :oops:)
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Kasperlzhang
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:38 am

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Kasperlzhang » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:00 pm

At least up to the version of panzers available when you get your first T-34s and slightly later.
IIRC in Minsk 41 you only get Panzer IVF/1 with 10 GD, 8 SA and 7 HA, and PZ IIIH with 10 GD, 5 SA and 9 HA. Compared with these two, even the T34/40 with 14 GD, 6 SA and 10 HA is superior in all aspects but SA against panzer IVF/1, although the T34/40 has abysmal 27 fuel, to reflect the fact early T-34s were terribly unreliable I guess.
Spaznetz wrote:
Kasperlzhang wrote:When you get the first T-34s in 1941, they were pretty strong compared with contemporary German tanks, let alone the 6 move.
Pity that no chance to capture later models of T-34 though.
The T-34s are strong compared to Panzer III & IV? Up to which version of the Panzers?

goose_2 wrote:Sounds like you got unlucky then, this combined with reloads when lousy ones show up should mitigate that dramatically.
I'm hoping :) I can't even seem to get my 88's or Panzerjagers to their first medals, much less to a hero :(

proline
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by proline » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Here's the question I think you should ask: will the unit be useful until the next class up from what I have now is available? For example, if you get a Souma in 1940s France, are you really going to keep it as a Souma until December 1942 when the Tiger comes out?

Yes: In that case your final upgrade cost is simply the cost of the Tiger 703 bucks

No: In that case you are paying 466 to make it a Panzer IVG plus 703 equals 1169 total. Here you would be much better off to sell the Souma for 302 right away and buy a fresh Panzer IV for an eventual cost of 466 - 302 + 703 = 867.

Doing this calculation for each captured unit will save you thousands. For some of the Russian tanks, especially the KV-C, you absolutely can keep them around until Tiger time. KV-85s can be useful the entire game. But with some units, like the weaker French tanks and the T-34/40 you should think about whether they are going to be useful long enough or not.

Another option if a captured unit to too weak to use until the next class is available is to play it a bunch right away until it has a star or two, then put it on ice in your inventory so that if you need a unit badly at the end you can upgrade it to a Tiger without having to deploy a green unit.

loganfive
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:46 pm

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by loganfive » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:04 pm

I would keep the ISU-122s because they are better than any German SP artillery unit.

I would disband anything else and keep the prestige.

ptje63
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by ptje63 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:29 pm

Im on my fifth Grand Tour of the East, using the MPC 35-39 mod that enables the game to start in 1935, which I think should be the proper time to start. It does give you a headstart when compared to starting in 1939 of course, which means that by that time I already have a line up of tanks with an amount of experience. I therefore discard all captured units except for the ISU-122 and first 2 KVs. Sideline: too bad only ground units can be captured and not a single airplane.

stan23
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by stan23 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:26 pm

I certainly agree with ptje63 "Sideline: too bad only ground units can be captured and not a single airplane."

Kasperlzhang
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:38 am

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Kasperlzhang » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:30 pm

When min-max like that you are certainly correct, however, most units don’t necessarily get upgraded to the ‘top’ model in my playing style.

For example with tanks, only one in ten will ever become tiger, 3 or 4 panther, the rest staying within the iii or iv family line.

So while it might not be economical upgrading the Somua or T-34/40 all the way to first a IV then a tiger, i am perfectly fine with using them while they were clearly superior or at least equivalent to contemporary panzer, and upgrade them to a III or IV when this is no longer the case, and at this moment they will already be experienced, even with a good hero as a bonus. I believe this might be more preferable than purchasing a green panzer III or IV and babysitting them from start, all things considered.
proline wrote:Here's the question I think you should ask: will the unit be useful until the next class up from what I have now is available? For example, if you get a Souma in 1940s France, are you really going to keep it as a Souma until December 1942 when the Tiger comes out?

Yes: In that case your final upgrade cost is simply the cost of the Tiger 703 bucks

No: In that case you are paying 466 to make it a Panzer IVG plus 703 equals 1169 total. Here you would be much better off to sell the Souma for 302 right away and buy a fresh Panzer IV for an eventual cost of 466 - 302 + 703 = 867.

Doing this calculation for each captured unit will save you thousands. For some of the Russian tanks, especially the KV-C, you absolutely can keep them around until Tiger time. KV-85s can be useful the entire game. But with some units, like the weaker French tanks and the T-34/40 you should think about whether they are going to be useful long enough or not.

Another option if a captured unit to too weak to use until the next class is available is to play it a bunch right away until it has a star or two, then put it on ice in your inventory so that if you need a unit badly at the end you can upgrade it to a Tiger without having to deploy a green unit.

ycloon
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:53 pm

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by ycloon » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:57 am

Kasperlzhang wrote: So while it might not be economical upgrading the Somua or T-34/40 all the way to first a IV then a tiger, i am perfectly fine with using them while they were clearly superior or at least equivalent to contemporary panzer, and upgrade them to a III or IV when this is no longer the case, and at this moment they will already be experienced, even with a good hero as a bonus. I believe this might be more preferable than purchasing a green panzer III or IV and babysitting them from start, all things considered.
Other factors I would consider are: (a) repair and overstrength costs (b) size of your AFV force. Upgrading an experienced and possibly heroed Somua or T-34/40 to a III or IV probably means you want to use it in the frontline, which usually result in higher repair and/or overstrength cost. Babysitting a green III or IV might be less costly in repair and/or overstrength because you are...babysitting and letting the green unit kill off low-hanging fruit.

If you don't wish to expand your AFV force (for whatever reason), upgrading a Somua/ T-34/40 to a better tank would make sense. Otherwise, buying a green III or IV shouldn't be an issue, understanding of course the drag on combat performance due to babysitting.

Kasperlzhang
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:38 am

Re: Captured Units: Keep or Disband?

Post by Kasperlzhang » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:27 am

I don’t know, is reinforcing captured armor more expensive than own panzers? Because you would need to reenforce them whichever you use.

TBH, I don’t like to game the game too much, and I appreciate the diversity and flavor the captured units offer, that alone is reason enough for me to use them.
ycloon wrote:
Kasperlzhang wrote: So while it might not be economical upgrading the Somua or T-34/40 all the way to first a IV then a tiger, i am perfectly fine with using them while they were clearly superior or at least equivalent to contemporary panzer, and upgrade them to a III or IV when this is no longer the case, and at this moment they will already be experienced, even with a good hero as a bonus. I believe this might be more preferable than purchasing a green panzer III or IV and babysitting them from start, all things considered.
Other factors I would consider are: (a) repair and overstrength costs (b) size of your AFV force. Upgrading an experienced and possibly heroed Somua or T-34/40 to a III or IV probably means you want to use it in the frontline, which usually result in higher repair and/or overstrength cost. Babysitting a green III or IV might be less costly in repair and/or overstrength because you are...babysitting and letting the green unit kill off low-hanging fruit.

If you don't wish to expand your AFV force (for whatever reason), upgrading a Somua/ T-34/40 to a better tank would make sense. Otherwise, buying a green III or IV shouldn't be an issue, understanding of course the drag on combat performance due to babysitting.

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”