Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

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ptje63
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Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by ptje63 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:08 pm

Im at "On road to India" in Afrika Korps, in March 1944 - and I still cant upgrade my StuGIIIGs to Elefants, whereas they should be available from May/June 1943 onwards... Not using any mods.
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turn4441
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by turn4441 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:40 pm

See the following thread regarding the theatre code in the equipment file. Elefant is not available in Afrika Korps.

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 21&t=82993


Note that the Marder IIA, IID, and IIIH are also not available in Africa (theatre code 1) but would be by then in Europe. Cavalry, any SE Infantry types, Panzer 38(t)A, SdKfz 231 6Rad, Do 17Z, Do 217E, and He177A are also unavailable in Africa.

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:13 pm

Interesting that there are no elefants in Africa... ;)

But this is historically correct, the few that were built were mainly used around Kursk in 1943 and some remaining later in Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant#Combat_history

hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by hurly » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:21 pm

Aside From the Historical Facts

The British and US Tanks in 1943 are quite mediocre, so there is no real Need to bring a slowfoot ultra heavy Anti Tank Unit with low Mileage and high Fuel consumption

Seems I inspired a livid debate with my careless quip
Aside From the Historical Facts
Of course
The British and US Tanks in 1943 are quite mediocre, so there is no real Need to bring a slowfoot ultra heavy Anti Tank Unit with low Mileage and high Fuel consumption
is a historical Fact but more in the Direction of Strategical Thinking and Infrastructure

An Army Corps that had issues with supplies all the time and does only get very limited tonnage has not a high prioroity for a ultra Heavy Tank "Hunter" (capacity on the ships is limited) with a big thirst (gas was always a glaring need for Rommel) that is rather slow and has limited Range. Especially when your 8,8 do the AT job in a very sufficient way, and your standard Tanks are no slouch either. (I guess they would rather have 2 Panzer 3 or 4 than 1 Elefant)


That said I used the Elefant in the Game and while it's striking ability is fearsome, I'm not really convinced with this. The Tiger 2 especially the SE Version is my main Heavy Armor Unit and a very sufficient one to boot. No need for more Firepower for me
So I use very few German AT if at all (Low Ammo and weak vs Infantry the main reasons). I even prefer the Stug 4 in my squad. Certainly not as a frontline Unit but as better Stug IIIb alternate in Row 2 with better range and more overall ability. But well that's just my style. Like I said I used the Elefant before and have seen the Final Maps with them at hand. In later runs I go lighter with the Stug 4, but even here very few of them cause I did not build up experience on my AT Units. So bottom line it's a matter of style what to use and what not.

But so what my style of playing is changing all the time. Especially when you know from earlier runs what kind of stuff is awarded and when. In my last Run I did not buy a single Fighter, not a single AT and Stukas become BF110 family Planes very soon (maybe if I go on a new Run there will be no Stuka except Early Rudel).
Basically the only Stuff I buy is a bit of AA (1 8,8 and 1 Mobile AA, although I really developed a knack for AA lately, but you get so many of them later in 44, that there is no real need for them in GC East) then loads of Arty (at least 3 or 4 of them in every towed variant and several SP ones too, basically the only Weapon Group I really farm ---- max experience reached, buy another one---) and a few Strat Bombers (but rarely use more than 2 in a Scenario). Of course No Recons and like I said the 1 AT Gun I start with is more of a sidekick feature for easy scenarios where i Can harvest a bit of experience.
Last edited by hurly on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:58 pm

hurly wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:21 pm
The Afrika Korps surrendered May 12 1943
Very true! Didn't even think of this... in addition, there were already severe issues with shipping stuff across the Mediterranean Sea for most of the time in 1943!

proline
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by proline » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:53 pm

I don't think this is really about being historical- we're talking the campaign where you fly across the Caucasus in gliders carrying Tiger tanks after all. Rather by the time Afrika corps came out it was obvious that the Elefant is exceedingly overpowered in the game, particularly in open terrain, and the scenario designers didn't want to have to balance around that. The abundance of open terrain in Africa and the Middle East would allow Elefants to steamroll any scenario.
Last edited by proline on Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:30 pm

@proline: probably you are right...

Kasperlzhang
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by Kasperlzhang » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:43 pm

proline wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:53 pm
I don't think this is really about being historical- we're talking the campaign where you fly across the Caucasus in gliders carrying Tiger tanks after all. Rather by the time Afrika corps came out it was obvious that the Elefant is exceedingly overpowered in the game, particularly in open terrain, and the scenario designers didn't want to have to balance around that. The abundant of open terrain in Africa and the Middle East would allow Elefants to steamroll any scenario.
Very convincing.
This is something PzC 2 should focus on, reliability, logistics, availability, so we don’t have have a core full of Maus and elephants.

ptje63
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by ptje63 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:39 am

Well I wasn't expecting a historical reason, since after El Alamein the Afrika Korps is a total "what if" business. A different "historical" reason might have been that Rommel (me that is...) and OKH have a disagreement about priorities, whereas I think the momentum lies in India, but whereas the OKH thinks a more defensive line is needed in Russia - so any spare Elefants were needed elsewhere :-)...
I never consider the slow moving Elefants as less useful however, especially not with a +move hero - they are perfect defensive lines for any post-1943 Russian flank attacks...

proline
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by proline » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:25 pm

ptje63 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:39 am
I never consider the slow moving Elefants as less useful however, especially not with a +move hero - they are perfect defensive lines for any post-1943 Russian flank attacks...
Yeah the Elefant's in-game weakness is supposed to be slowness, but that's of little consequence on most scenarios. Even a movement of 3 would be enough to keep up no problem, let alone 4. After all, your army isn't moving at full speed most of the time, especially after 1943, so you don't often need the full move. Defense is a far more important stat and the Elefant has it in abundance. The jagd panther has the same attack but sacrifices 3 defense for an increase of 2 move and the result is a far more fragile, less cost effective unit.

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:38 pm

Nonetheless, the in-game speed might still be too high as in reality Elefants were moving with a maximum speed of 10 km/h off-road and 30 km/h on road with a fuel consumption of ~900-1,000 liters/100 km off-road and 650-700 liters/100 km on road :shock:
In addition, many (if not most) were lost due to mechanical breakdowns/lack of spare parts and their crews had to destroy and abandon them (or because they just couldn't retreat quickly enough)...
It had a weight of 70 MT... heavy...

JaM2013
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by JaM2013 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:37 am

tank speed in PC is commonly wonky.. best example is Comet - one of the fastest medium tank of WW2, yet it has mobility 4 because somebody forgot its speed was stated in mph not kmh... (32mph = 51kmph)

personally, i think best way how to simulate mobility for game like Panzer Corps would be to take offroad max speed, not on road.. and then rework how roads function to give bonus to mobility instead of no penalty)
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hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by hurly » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:55 am

Seems I inspired a livid debate with my careless quip
Aside From the Historical Facts
Of course
The British and US Tanks in 1943 are quite mediocre, so there is no real Need to bring a slowfoot ultra heavy Anti Tank Unit with low Mileage and high Fuel consumption
is a historical Fact but more in the Direction of Strategical Thinking and Infrastructure

An Army Corps that had issues with supplies all the time and does only get very limited tonnage has not a high prioroity for a ultra Heavy Tank "Hunter" (capacity on the ships is limited) with a big thirst (gas was always a glaring need for Rommel) that is rather slow and has limited Range. Especially when your 8,8 do the AT job in a very sufficient way, and your standard Tanks are no slouch either. (I guess they would rather have 2 Panzer 3 or 4 than 1 Elefant)


That said I used the Elefant in the Game and while it's striking ability is fearsome, I'm not really convinced with this. The Tiger 2 especially the SE Version is my main Heavy Armor Unit and a very sufficient one to boot. No need for more Firepower for me
So I use very few German AT if at all (Low Ammo and weak vs Infantry the main reasons). I even prefer the Stug 4 in my squad. Certainly not as a frontline Unit but as better Stug IIIb alternate in Row 2 with better range and more overall ability. But well that's just my style. Like I said I used the Elefant before and have seen the Final Maps with them at hand. In later runs I go lighter with the Stug 4, but even here very few of them cause I did not build up experience on my AT Units. So bottom line it's a matter of style what to use and what not.

But so what my style of playing is changing all the time. Especially when you know from earlier runs what kind of stuff is awarded and when. In my last Run I did not buy a single Fighter, not a single AT and Stukas become BF110 family Planes very soon (maybe if I go on a new Run there will be no Stuka except Early Rudel).
Basically the only Stuff I buy is a bit of AA (1 8,8 and 1 Mobile AA, although I really developed a knack for AA lately, but you get so many of them later in 44, that there is no real need for them in GC East) then loads of Arty (at least 3 or 4 of them in every towed variant and several SP ones too, basically the only Weapon Group I really farm ---- max experience reached, buy another one---) and a few Strat Bombers (but rarely use more than 2 in a Scenario). Of course No Recons and like I said the 1 AT Gun I start with is more of a sidekick feature for easy scenarios where i Can harvest a bit of experience.
Last edited by hurly on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ptje63
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by ptje63 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:02 pm

Perhaps a new hero can be introduced in PC2 - a Repair-hero, like in Monty Python's "Bicycle Repair Man" ;-), which deals with historical flaws present in (too early introduced) new hardware...

proline
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by proline » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:44 am

hurly wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:55 am
(I guess they would rather have 2 Panzer 3 or 4 than 1 Elefant)
Except that the Elefant only costs 16% more than a top of the line Panzer 4 and is far, far more powerful. I'd definitely take an Elefant over 1.2 Panzer 4s.
hurly wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:55 am
That said I used the Elefant in the Game and while it's striking ability is fearsome, I'm not really convinced with this. The Tiger 2 especially the SE Version is my main Heavy Armor Unit and a very sufficient one to boot. No need for more Firepower for me
So I use very few German AT if at all (Low Ammo and weak vs Infantry the main reasons).
Obviously the Tiger 2 is better- better soft attack and better defense. Same attack. Costs 390 more. That's 65% more. And you have to wait over an extra year for it. Compare the Elefant to a tiger 1 and it is way more cost effective for fighting anything armored. Granted, you can't make an army of Elefants due to the poor soft attack, but they are definitely extremely cost effective, especially compared to other 1943 stuff. Especially if you play with the salary cap an Elefant is a good deal.

JaM2013
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by JaM2013 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:10 pm

Actually, Elephant cost was higher than Tiger I cost, which was around 350.000 Reichs Marks.. Panzer IV cost was 75.000 to 100.000 Reich Marks.. Of course, German Mark was a "funny money" during WW2 anyway it kinda shows the "cost" difference between german equipment.. btw Panther cost was 100.000-125.000 Reich Marks.

And lets not forget Africa Corps had no capacity to operate 70ton vehicles.. they were unable to operate even 56ton Tiger I, which resulted in operational loss of these tanks the minute they broke as they were unable to tow them back for repairs...

I would go as far as say that If Africa Corps had Tigers and Elephants in 1941, they would be defeated a lot sooner.. these vehicles were not suited for maneuvering warfare in the desert
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turn4441
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by turn4441 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:20 pm

I second ptje63's Bicycle Repairman idea. Any Python reference is worth noting. When I was young in the 70's, we used to hope to see them on PBS when the weather cooperated (basically only had 3 channels on UHF, but sometimes got 1 on VHF). Luckily now I have them all on now-days archaic DVD so I can watch when I want. So very sorry to get off topic, but Python is still the best. 'Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries'. Anyway, sorry again, now back to really serious gaming and important things.
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turn4441
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Re: Afrika Korps and Elefant upgrade

Post by turn4441 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 pm

Again, I apologize for going off topic and not upholding the gravitas of the forum/topic. Had a long lunch today for various reasons (Nudge, nudge). 'If only bicycle repairman was here!' 'And now, for something completely different!'

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