GS 42-43 Messina ends early

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Plaid
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GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by Plaid » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:55 pm

Briefing says 18 ground units are needed to be evacuated, but I evacuated only 15 or so and scenario still ended with DV on the next turn after prototype air units arrive (turn 11?).
I even reloaded autosave, embarked couple of units which were in ports and shipped them from mainland Italy. Still DV.
Is it some bug or I misunderstood victory conditions?

dalfrede
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by dalfrede » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:53 pm

The AUX units starting on the mainland count in the total count.

Plaid
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by Plaid » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:23 pm

Well, I think it was still below 18 with 2 static flaks and 2 shore batteries.
I've checked other threads on topic and it looks like evacuation is 'complete' when you receive those air units.
No matter what you do after that (ship units away, disband them), it will be DV after next turn.

proline
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by proline » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:28 am

You will not get to use the Italian units again, so sell off any in excess of the number you need, particularly the pricier tanks.

Plaid
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by Plaid » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:47 am

I indeed regret not selling Italian fighter, which ended shot down by stray p-38.
It even does not count for evacuation limit, as it is not ground unit.

GiveWarAchance
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by GiveWarAchance » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:43 am

Isn't it cheating to sell the Italian units instead of using them or retreating them?
I'm trying to imagine Germans setting up booths in Messina with Italian equipment freshly painted, wrapped in shrinkwrap and on display to sell it off to the locals and earlier arriving British troops looking for ways to spend their pay.
The British and allies would probably use the clunky Italian tanks to carry food & drink and mattresses and use them for taking naps in.
For me, at Messina I needed most or all of the Italian units to ship across to fulfill the quest although maybe I had less than other players cause I fought very hard in the first Sicily battle and some were destroyed in combat.

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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by huckc » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:46 pm

I don't consider it cheating since you're just using the as-designed game mechanics to your fullest advantage. Good play as they say.

What's borderline cheesy is dropping a bunch of newly minted paratroopers on the mainland like what I did then disband them with the Italians.

Btw, if you don't need the prestige you can re-use those Italians on any later scenario with exit hexes and/or the final battle. There are at least two that I can recall.

proline
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by proline » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:11 am

huckc wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:46 pm
Btw, if you don't need the prestige you can re-use those Italians on any later scenario with exit hexes and/or the final battle. There are at least two that I can recall.
No they disappear from your core- Messina is the last time you can deploy Italians. The next scenario you have to start killing Italians if you take the Catanzarro / Taranto branch. Not sure if the exact Italian units in your core are the ones you have to kill or if they're just generic ones the scenario designers made. If anyone knows the answer to this let me know!
GiveWarAchance wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:43 am
Isn't it cheating to sell the Italian units instead of using them or retreating them?
I'm trying to imagine Germans setting up booths in Messina with Italian equipment freshly painted, wrapped in shrinkwrap and on display to sell it off to the locals and earlier arriving British troops looking for ways to spend their pay.
The Germans used Italian equipment for a variety of purposes after Italy did their usual thing of switching to the winning side too late to share in the spoils of victory but early enough not to be punished with the defeated. I'm sure some of it was scrapped for $$$.

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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by GiveWarAchance » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:28 am

I took the branch of defending Salerno and Anzio so I don't know how the anti-Italian branch in Taranto goes. I guess that gives the campaign some replay value although that is doubtful cause there's no way I can finish the Bastogne mission.

I haven't read anything about the fate of the Italian equipment except that the Italians did sabotage some of it out of spite after Italy betrayed Germany. There were some good loyal Italian divisions like Ariete and Livorno that would not have sabotaged their stuff. Maybe they warehoused their equipment and recycled it for metal later.

proline
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by proline » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 pm

GiveWarAchance wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:28 am
I took the branch of defending Salerno and Anzio so I don't know how the anti-Italian branch in Taranto goes. I guess that gives the campaign some replay value although that is doubtful cause there's no way I can finish the Bastogne mission.
The two anti-Italian scenarios are very very easy since the Italians are super weak. Good way to replenish your forces if things aren't going well.
GiveWarAchance wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:28 am
There were some good loyal Italian divisions like Ariete and Livorno that would not have sabotaged their stuff. Maybe they warehoused their equipment and recycled it for metal later.
Loyalty is a difficult word to apply to the Italians as there were few, if any, that stayed on the same side throughout the whole war. The country betrayed the Allies to start the war, but also betrayed the Axis. Mussolini was betrayed, but he also betrayed Italian efforts at democracy by making himself a dictator and later betrayed the king by setting up the fake government in the north. The king in turn was also deposed, and he was accused of disloyalty over various issues as well.

There might have been the odd person who followed the king the whole time- I guess the word loyal might then narrowly apply.

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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by GiveWarAchance » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:09 am

proline wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 pm

Loyalty is a difficult word to apply to the Italians as there were few, if any, that stayed on the same side throughout the whole war. The country betrayed the Allies to start the war, but also betrayed the Axis. Mussolini was betrayed, but he also betrayed Italian efforts at democracy by making himself a dictator and later betrayed the king by setting up the fake government in the north. The king in turn was also deposed, and he was accused of disloyalty over various issues as well.

There might have been the odd person who followed the king the whole time- I guess the word loyal might then narrowly apply.
That almost sounds like a comedy story. The betrayals went full circle. Maybe it is a tradition from Roman times when changes in emperor mostly occurred either from poisoning or a knife in the back.
Amazingly though, there were reliable Italian army units in Africa and Sicily. They tried hard but suffered from weaker equipment and leaders without tactical knowledge like they even attacked in marching order very bravely but were blasted by artillery dropped on their nice formations so the infantry were separated from their tanks.

PeteMitchell_2
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:03 am

GiveWarAchance wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:09 am
Amazingly though, there were reliable Italian army units in Africa and Sicily.
Let's not forget the Italian troops at the Ostfront, especially around Stalingrad:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_p ... tern_Front

GiveWarAchance
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by GiveWarAchance » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:21 am

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:03 am
GiveWarAchance wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:09 am
Amazingly though, there were reliable Italian army units in Africa and Sicily.
Let's not forget the Italian troops at the Ostfront, especially around Stalingrad:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Army_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_p ... tern_Front
Those are interesting articles. Thank you for that.
It sounds like the Italians in the Eastern Front tried very hard to help Germany and fought well despite not having adequate armor support. I wonder if Saturn had not happened wiping out most of the hapless 8th army, the Italians would have had a good reputation and done well in the East without the morale drop from Saturn. They were successful in some battles both attacking and defending but aren't given proper credit in books, documentaries and games. Their infantry sound quite good like the Alpini and Bersaglieri despite them being trained for the mountainous Italian terrain.

The Order of Battle game gives Italy a big part in the African campaign including all their different unit types so it is a good chance to use them in a computer wargame.

proline
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Re: GS 42-43 Messina ends early

Post by proline » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:48 am

GiveWarAchance wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:09 am
proline wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:18 pm

Loyalty is a difficult word to apply to the Italians as there were few, if any, that stayed on the same side throughout the whole war. The country betrayed the Allies to start the war, but also betrayed the Axis. Mussolini was betrayed, but he also betrayed Italian efforts at democracy by making himself a dictator and later betrayed the king by setting up the fake government in the north. The king in turn was also deposed, and he was accused of disloyalty over various issues as well.

There might have been the odd person who followed the king the whole time- I guess the word loyal might then narrowly apply.
Amazingly though, there were reliable Italian army units in Africa and Sicily. They tried hard but suffered from weaker equipment and leaders without tactical knowledge like they even attacked in marching order very bravely but were blasted by artillery dropped on their nice formations so the infantry were separated from their tanks.
That is true- I guess I didn't consider that some Italians didn't switch sides on the grounds that they had the misfortune to be captured or killed prior to having the opportunity to do so. Any units not evacuated from Africa, Sicily, or the Eastern front could be considered loyal.

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