Using airpower in 44 and beyond

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Sun May 26, 2019 5:51 am

Before 44, I used 4-5 fighters and a mix of strategic and tac bombers. I usually knocked out their airforce and then attacked their ground units. All while avoided AAA.
Now with the Sparkling great strength, I find it's hard or costly to venture out beyond my own lines. Almost every time I do I get a plane clipped. Which is massively expensive.
I use a 4 range AAA, which helps hit the enemy units that hang back over their own lines.
But how did you adjust to not using your airforce in an aggressive manner?

Turtler
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:36 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Turtler » Sun May 26, 2019 7:33 am

AA is your friend.

Soviet Corps can really get you in the mindset for Post-Midwar Air Doctrine, since the Reds start out with weak planes vis a vis the Germans, so a key trick is not giving up the air but finding ways to contest it from the ground. Soften up enemy planes from Anti-Aircraft units, then have your planes swoop in and gut the weakened ones. Then withdraw to a safe position.

proline
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by proline » Mon May 27, 2019 5:35 am

Elkarlo wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 5:51 am
Before 44, I used 4-5 fighters and a mix of strategic and tac bombers. I usually knocked out their airforce and then attacked their ground units. All while avoided AAA.
Now with the Sparkling great strength, I find it's hard or costly to venture out beyond my own lines. Almost every time I do I get a plane clipped. Which is massively expensive.
I use a 4 range AAA, which helps hit the enemy units that hang back over their own lines.
But how did you adjust to not using your airforce in an aggressive manner?
Without knowing what campaign you're doing its hard to help. In general, German bombers are weak late war and need to be escorted if you want to keep using them. As for the fighters, in 1944 and 1945 the enemy will have plenty of self propelled AA that can go after them so you do have to keep them over your own lines. That said, there are variations between campaigns. German fighters are very good against the late war Russian air, whereas they are much more vulnerable to late war western air.

captainjack
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by captainjack » Mon May 27, 2019 6:35 am

I follow the kind of approach described by Turtler - maybe two SPAA to escort spearheads, and one or two towed 88s or 128s to weaken enemy aircraft and to defend the main body. I can usually get away with 2 or 3 fighters but you do have to be careful to keep them away from the enemy AA.

huckc
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:38 pm
Location: USA

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by huckc » Mon May 27, 2019 3:34 pm

Going to town on enemy aircraft with your AA is one of, if not the most, satisfying parts of the game imo.

The skill of predicting AI behavior and creating air traps with them is also really enjoyable to deploy.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Tue May 28, 2019 12:47 am

Turtler wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:33 am
AA is your friend.

Soviet Corps can really get you in the mindset for Post-Midwar Air Doctrine, since the Reds start out with weak planes vis a vis the Germans, so a key trick is not giving up the air but finding ways to contest it from the ground. Soften up enemy planes from Anti-Aircraft units, then have your planes swoop in and gut the weakened ones. Then withdraw to a safe position.
Seems to be more and more the case. Mobile AAA was annoying, but I could isolate or even bait them, take them out and not have to worry. Now they can knock 6-9 points off a fighter that's above my lines! Plus even if I knock some of the Spaags out, there always are more. So my planes can't really operate like I did in 43 and before in the GC.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Tue May 28, 2019 12:49 am

captainjack wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:35 am
I follow the kind of approach described by Turtler - maybe two SPAA to escort spearheads, and one or two towed 88s or 128s to weaken enemy aircraft and to defend the main body. I can usually get away with 2 or 3 fighters but you do have to be careful to keep them away from the enemy AA.
OK, interesting. I on the East GC used 4 fighters,a nd then in 43 and 44 started to use 5 when the Soviets started to have more and better planes. Now, my fighters are a prestige sink. Guess I'll use them to occasionally escort a bomber, or to take out an enemy plane that's well inside my lines. And as was said use 2- 128MM AAA and two mobile units instead of a pack of fighters.

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Tue May 28, 2019 8:57 am

I think best is to develop one (to three) 88s right from the start in Poland... ;)

proline
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by proline » Tue May 28, 2019 6:46 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 12:49 am
captainjack wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:35 am
I follow the kind of approach described by Turtler - maybe two SPAA to escort spearheads, and one or two towed 88s or 128s to weaken enemy aircraft and to defend the main body. I can usually get away with 2 or 3 fighters but you do have to be careful to keep them away from the enemy AA.
OK, interesting. I on the East GC used 4 fighters,a nd then in 43 and 44 started to use 5 when the Soviets started to have more and better planes. Now, my fighters are a prestige sink. Guess I'll use them to occasionally escort a bomber, or to take out an enemy plane that's well inside my lines. And as was said use 2- 128MM AAA and two mobile units instead of a pack of fighters.
Russian fighters are harmless to experienced German fighters but good enough to beat inexperienced ones. To do well you need to keep your experienced fighters alive. If you must buy new ones, send them against weak bombers only to build experience (not Shturmoviks if possible, they have high armor so you won't build up experience as fast against them as the Russian level bombers).

In general try to attack fighters with AA first and then finish them with your fighters. That's a lot cheaper than taking them down fighter to fighter.

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Tue May 28, 2019 7:38 pm

The other thing might be to swap all tac bombers to fighter bombers (but maybe still with fighter escorts, if needed)... Rudel in a fighter bomber is rarely attacked

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Wed May 29, 2019 12:21 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:57 am
I think best is to develop one (to three) 88s right from the start in Poland... ;)
I only did one. But I was incredibly lucky and got an extra range point for that unit.
Low XP AAA does very little damage. Especially the mobile AAA. They only take a few points off of fighters or bombers

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Wed May 29, 2019 12:30 pm

proline wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:46 pm
[


Russian fighters are harmless to experienced German fighters but good enough to beat inexperienced ones. To do well you need to keep your experienced fighters alive. If you must buy new ones, send them against weak bombers only to build experience (not Shturmoviks if possible, they have high armor so you won't build up experience as fast against them as the Russian level bombers).

In general try to attack fighters with AA first and then finish them with your fighters. That's a lot cheaper than taking them down fighter to fighter.
Yeah Russian fighters are junk til 43 and only in 44 do you have to take them seriously.
I was worried about losses. I played the western GC and found that if you didn't have a stable of fighters, that replacing them was impossible. Well really hard, as babying a fighter is hard to do and get it XP. So I at Vilna in 44 right now, I have 6 190s and one 109 that are all fully XP.

Now the Soviet fighters kill ratio is from 1:7 to as bad as 3:6 in my favor. So it gets expensive, even when I'm killing them. I try to ko them with my AAA first, and if possible finish them off with my fighters. Or better yet, my AAA kills the fighter and my fighter goes after the bomber.
Before if I destroyed 30 enemy fighter points, I'd lose 8 myself. That's a pile of prestige that I was losing. Now I'm losing more like 4, which is way more sustainable.

Thanks for the tips everyone

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Wed May 29, 2019 12:31 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:38 pm
The other thing might be to swap all tac bombers to fighter bombers (but maybe still with fighter escorts, if needed)... Rudel in a fighter bomber is rarely attacked
I tried that in the west. Fight bombers aren't that great over there. Is Rudel worth being a fighter bomber? I don't mind escorting him. Especially since once he has free access to enemy armor, he's like a cheat code.

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:28 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:21 pm
PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:57 am
I think best is to develop one (to three) 88s right from the start in Poland... ;)
I only did one. But I was incredibly lucky and got an extra range point for that unit.
Low XP AAA does very little damage. Especially the mobile AAA. They only take a few points off of fighters or bombers
Well, I use the 88s as AT for French tanks, it helps to build up experience for later...

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:33 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:31 pm
PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:38 pm
The other thing might be to swap all tac bombers to fighter bombers (but maybe still with fighter escorts, if needed)... Rudel in a fighter bomber is rarely attacked
I tried that in the west. Fight bombers aren't that great over there. Is Rudel worth being a fighter bomber? I don't mind escorting him. Especially since once he has free access to enemy armor, he's like a cheat code.
Well, Rudel as a fighter bomber is very rarely attacked and (with some care) actually never killed/lost... However, when used as a tactical bomber, he is actually vulnerable and towards the end, the AI keeps attacking with two fighters (against one unit) so it is more dangerous (and more effort to keep Rudel alive) as a tac bomber... IMHO

proline
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by proline » Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 am

Elkarlo wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 12:31 pm
PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:38 pm
The other thing might be to swap all tac bombers to fighter bombers (but maybe still with fighter escorts, if needed)... Rudel in a fighter bomber is rarely attacked
I tried that in the west. Fight bombers aren't that great over there. Is Rudel worth being a fighter bomber? I don't mind escorting him. Especially since once he has free access to enemy armor, he's like a cheat code.
Rudel is excellent as an 87G, which has good enough armor that he often doesn't need to be escorted. He can really mess up even the best Soviet tanks in that form.

Now if you give him an Fw 190G his air attack is equal to a Me 262 (with a defense of 27, far higher than any fighter) while still retaining better soft and hard attack values than any German bomber. But he can't do nearly as much to the very best tanks. Now in that form he definitely needs no escort, so not only are you adding an excellent fighter but you are freeing up one as well.

So which is better? It's really hard to say. Both are great choices.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Thu May 30, 2019 9:59 am

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 1:28 pm




Well, I use the 88s as AT for French tanks, it helps to build up experience for later...
Should have done that. I never did. Just had the one. In 44 it's easy to have regrets on what you did earlier.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Thu May 30, 2019 10:02 am

proline wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 am

Rudel is excellent as an 87G, which has good enough armor that he often doesn't need to be escorted. He can really mess up even the best Soviet tanks in that form.

Now if you give him an Fw 190G his air attack is equal to a Me 262 (with a defense of 27, far higher than any fighter) while still retaining better soft and hard attack values than any German bomber. But he can't do nearly as much to the very best tanks. Now in that form he definitely needs no escort, so not only are you adding an excellent fighter but you are freeing up one as well.

So which is better? It's really hard to say. Both are great choices.
Ah that makes sense. I use him as an 87G. His ability to wreck heavy armor in one hit is wroth escorting him. I have to escorts my strategic bombers anyways. So I don't I have a problem escorting.
My air strategy was to beat up their fighters, then the bombers and then start escorting my bombers over enemy lines.

proline
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by proline » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:24 am

Elkarlo wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:02 am
proline wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 am

Rudel is excellent as an 87G, which has good enough armor that he often doesn't need to be escorted. He can really mess up even the best Soviet tanks in that form.

Now if you give him an Fw 190G his air attack is equal to a Me 262 (with a defense of 27, far higher than any fighter) while still retaining better soft and hard attack values than any German bomber. But he can't do nearly as much to the very best tanks. Now in that form he definitely needs no escort, so not only are you adding an excellent fighter but you are freeing up one as well.

So which is better? It's really hard to say. Both are great choices.
Ah that makes sense. I use him as an 87G. His ability to wreck heavy armor in one hit is wroth escorting him. I have to escorts my strategic bombers anyways. So I don't I have a problem escorting.
My air strategy was to beat up their fighters, then the bombers and then start escorting my bombers over enemy lines.
Well if you're playing like that don't bother deploying the bombers off the start. That would just increase your prestige cap hit for units that aren't even fighting.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Using airpower in 44 and beyond

Post by Elkarlo » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:28 am

proline wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:24 am

Well if you're playing like that don't bother deploying the bombers off the start. That would just increase your prestige cap hit for units that aren't even fighting.
Can you do that? Can you not deploy units and then deploy them during the game?

I find that it's better to knock out their airforce first, and then escort. Otherwise their bombers get through and they can do some serious damage to things like artillery

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”