21 cm artillery

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

Post Reply
Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

21 cm artillery

Post by Elkarlo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:32 pm

I know many here don't like the 21cm due to low Rof and low ammo count. I messed up my first play through and kept upgrading my artillery every chance I had. Which was fine I guess. But at Stalingrad having 5 ammo meant that I only had three shit's per piece. I didn't want to leave my infantry with only 1 shot backing them up. And for defense 21cm isn't very good against infantry in urban areas.
My current and second play though, I'm using 15cm iirc, maybe 17 not sure.

In late 43 and especially the second half of 44, Soviet tanks get tough. The smaller artillery can't and won't suppress them at all. I actually shelled a surrounded one once with 3-4 pieces, including a Romanian 75mm. Zero suppression.
I have one unit with an extra range due to a hero. I made that a 21cm and have it behind my battle line. I can actually suppress the Heavy tanks and found it to be very useful. Especially since AAA makes air attacks much more risky to pull off. What says you and your artillery line up?

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by goose_2 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:04 pm

I can see the need for heavy tank suppression, that is what I use Strats for though. 21cm arty just didn't make the cut for me.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by Elkarlo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:10 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:04 pm
I can see the need for heavy tank suppression, that is what I use Strats for though. 21cm arty just didn't make the cut for me.
Strats are nice, but in 44, I started having trouble using my airforce over enemy lines. AAA beat them up til I could take them out

RVallant
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:12 am

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by RVallant » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:02 pm

I can imagine they'll need babysitting by then.

15/17 is where I stop arty wise. But I am only up to 1941 at the moment. I can imagine with the heavier Russian Tanks and with a lack of air superiority, the 21 might be more useful. What about the defensive artillery like the Brumbarr etc?

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1263
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:13 pm

Russian SPAA can be difficult to deal with at times (either ammo deplete them with strat bomber or maybe consider Rudel plus one more bomber)... fully developed 15 star strat bombers are not that vulnerable actually...

I am not a big fan of 21cm arty... and I don't like the Brummbär (as it only has limited use and value IMHO)

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by goose_2 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:05 pm

No Brumbar's for me, why ever go beyond the great StuG3B, just so cheap and effective
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

George_Parr
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 3:57 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by George_Parr » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:20 am

I actually like to have a mix. In my most recent playthrough of the GC, I went with two 15cm, one 17cm and one 21cm artillery among "normal" artillery. Plus a whole lot of more mobile stuff.

One thing I do find a bit confusing (and I changed that for myself) is the different range-values between units equiped with the same gun.

E.g. the StuG III, StuH and Brummbär all have a range of 1, even though in reality they had the same or even bigger range than the Nebelwerfer-units, which have a range of 2. Indeed, the StuH had a range of 10-12km, which is similar to that of the 10.5cm leFh (it's basically the same gun), yet one of the two has range of 3 and the other of 1.

Similarly, the Sturmpanzer I, sIG 33 and Grille all have a range of 3, even though they were equiped with the 15cm infantry gun, which didn't have anywhere near the same range as regular artillery and would thus be more suitable with a range of 2. The Brummbär, on the other hand, carried this gun as well, yet only has a range of 1. And it's not because the former three allowed for much higher elevation and thus range either.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by Elkarlo » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:49 pm

RVallant wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:02 pm
I can imagine they'll need babysitting by then.

15/17 is where I stop arty wise. But I am only up to 1941 at the moment. I can imagine with the heavier Russian Tanks and with a lack of air superiority, the 21 might be more useful. What about the defensive artillery like the Brumbarr etc?
Babysitting? Artillery is always behind my lines. Sometimes in 42 or 43 I've gone too aggressive and had an artillery piece in transit get hit. It happens now and again. But after that my artillery is behind the lines and only is damaged by occasional counter battery fire and by the pesky 44 Soviet bombers.

Elkarlo
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by Elkarlo » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:52 pm

PeteMitchell_2 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:13 pm
Russian SPAA can be difficult to deal with at times (either ammo deplete them with strat bomber or maybe consider Rudel plus one more bomber)... fully developed 15 star strat bombers are not that vulnerable actually...

I am not a big fan of 21cm arty... and I don't like the Brummbär (as it only has limited use and value IMHO)
Problem is the AAA are always in groups. Take out one or two and there's one more that'll put a good dent I to your aircraft. I usually wait til my line units can wreck them. I may bait them into the front line and kill them there. But I usually don't send my aircraft out if I know there's Spaags about.
Brummbar, I don't see the usefulness in it. It's an artillery piece that has to be at the front to attack. Meaning it needs a lot of protection. I used it once at kursk and wasn't impressed by it. IDK

Cerberus51
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by Cerberus51 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:16 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:52 pm
Brummbar, I don't see the usefulness in it. It's an artillery piece that has to be at the front to attack. Meaning it needs a lot of protection. I used it once at kursk and wasn't impressed by it. IDK
My current playthrough GC East has just started on the Kursk scenarios in 43. I have been playing around with artillery and decided to try a few things I have not done before. I have recently upgraded all my Sturmpanzers to Hummels. It's a cheap upgrade and gives a little more movement and one more ammo so worth the marginal cost. The alternative, to the Sig 38, is full cost and the main benefit is to defence. So I didn't consider that to be an option.

I have upgraded 3 of my 4 towed 15cm to 17cm so we will see how that goes. The fourth one has +1 range and it was a toss up between a nebelwerfer 30 or a 21cm. I went for the latter because the nebelwerfer is a shredding machine for soft targets but 4 ammo does not look to be enough. Again, we will see.

I actually downgraded my Wuhrframen to Panzerwerfers to get the better defence as I am fed up with having them regularly, and expensively, hit by the Soviets (or maybe just at my own carelessness positioning them).

I considered buying or upgrading to a couple of Brummbars. The range is a downside, particularly if you have to move it in and then fire as it blocks an attack hex for any other unit. The upsides are the high defence and the bunker buster +5 to attack against fortifications. I don't think I will bother for this playthrough. I may try one another time but would have to find a slot or two starting with the StugIIIB to build experience, it is too late to start in mid 43 I feel.

RVallant
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:12 am

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by RVallant » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:53 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:49 pm
RVallant wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:02 pm
I can imagine they'll need babysitting by then.

15/17 is where I stop arty wise. But I am only up to 1941 at the moment. I can imagine with the heavier Russian Tanks and with a lack of air superiority, the 21 might be more useful. What about the defensive artillery like the Brumbarr etc?
Babysitting? Artillery is always behind my lines. Sometimes in 42 or 43 I've gone too aggressive and had an artillery piece in transit get hit. It happens now and again. But after that my artillery is behind the lines and only is damaged by occasional counter battery fire and by the pesky 44 Soviet bombers.
I was referencing the Strat bombers.

captainjack
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by captainjack » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:05 am

German artillery offers a good mix of options, especially if you include the captured units and the Stug IV so it's not surprising there's a lot of different views. .
Personally I often stick with a mix of 105 and 170. The 105 offers plentiful ammo, 100% RoF, is good against soft targets and OK vs hard up to about 1942, and it makes avery good defensive gun right frmo the start. For me, the 150 loses too much from 80% ROF to make the extra attack useeful and by the time it's really necessary the 170 is available with same RoF and only 1 less ammo. The 210 for me loses a bit too much fm teh 70% RoF in combination with lower ammo to be worthwhile, though I will sometimes convert one of my 170s.
Range heroes are interesting - personally I like 3 range 21cm nebelwerfers, but a 2 range Stug can be versatile, and one or two 4 range counter battery guns are nice - probably I'd go for the 105 for the ROF initially to get more suppression, though the 170 is better for picking off overstrength points.
Brummbars are a bit of a puzzle - nice armour, and the hitting power looks OK, but lower ammo and RoF makes them less useful against soft targets on defence and the more powerful attack is of limited value against the well armoured tanks they are facing by the time they arrive. Personally I start bringing in Stug IVs to develop experience as artillery befoire upgrading to jagdpathers or Elefants.

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by goose_2 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:22 pm

It is debatable which is the better hero. Range or Movement.

I tend to prefer movement so I can maneuver behind units moving forward or getting that needed shot on that just out of range unit. But Range is super nice as well.

I have a 30cm Nebelwerfer with +1 Movement, +1 Range, +1 Att. So wellrounded soft boy shredder in every situation.

It amazes me how well those Nebelwerfers can suppress those hard units also. If you are not playing with Nebelwerfers you are not taking full advantage of all the German artillery can offer.

I remember my Field Marshall playthrough I could barely get a 2nd hero and now I have 2 of my 3 Nebelwerfers with 3 heroes and 1 more that should get the 3rd hero before it is over. These monsters are must haves.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

hugh2711
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 583
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:45 pm

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by hugh2711 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:38 am

If you look at this thread; http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 63#p245092
there is a very thorough analysis and comparison of different types of all the towed artilliary of ALL thier hitting power, if you scroll to the bottom of the page there are some comprehensive graphs that make it very clear that in terms of bang for buck the 15 and 21's are not worth it.
It is a very comprehensive and revealing analysis which has been lost in time way back in the postings.
In all campaigns I always go 10 to 17 bypassing the 15 and never even bother with the 21 regardless of prestige surplus.

Goose, I would have to say; I would take range over movement every time without fail.

captainjack
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: 21 cm artillery

Post by captainjack » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:13 am

I usually prefer move over range for towed artillery (and especially for AA) as it allows it to keep up with Pioneers or Grenadiers/HW infantry (and fora towed AA to provide defence at all times or extend ability to reach a target before your fighters engage). However, I like range for SPArt and SPAA - 3 range nebelwerfers or a 7/1 AA and 2 range Stug 3B can make a big difference.

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”