DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

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billmv44
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DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by billmv44 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:30 pm

General - DV on 8/15, ending prestige 2085.

A race against time here. Fortunately the trains are tough enough to last. The Brits only attacked the trains with the Saboteur units. The artillery piece and ATG at Bayonne never fired on the train. Is that because their mission is to protect the raiders? If the goal is to destroy the trains, the I'd expect the AI to use all units at hand for that task. The conscripts are a nice touch. I'm guessing those are Russian POWs and other "volunteers". A nice variety of missions so far.
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Kerensky
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Kerensky » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:53 pm

8 turns is quick!
Can you tell me what your imported CORE consisted of?

And yes, during historical research, we found that a lot of personnel sent to the West during this period were 'volunteers' as you put it, and equipment was often the spoils and prizes of other conflicts. ;)

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Razz1 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:56 am

NO core
General
Lost Sig33 to British tank arrivals
Lost 5 points on my fighter from a positive battle odds. This is with a +2Defense hero!
DV 13/15

This was hard without the artillery support.

The P-40 looks small and funny.

Wasn't there a P-40 in the regular game?

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Razz1 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:04 am

I did not have enough prestige to repair all my units and move them up to max elite.
My Tac bomber was at 9 strength points when I started.

Also I have Steiner Hero for +4 attack on my artillery piece.

When I was awarded the hero I thought it said + movement but I could be wrong.

Anyhow

NO picture for Steiner!

Kamerer
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Kamerer » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:41 am

Bayonne – beta 1

Level: FM
Prestige - Begin: 2,175. End:. Net: +2,825. Net: +650.
Result: DV at 8/15 (* barely – see below).
Replacements: None used.

Core changes - purchased and deployed:
  • · 1 x Gebirgsjager + 251/1,
    · 1 x Fallschirmjager + Opel truck,
    · 1x Bf 109F (left the experienced one in reserve, to start developing this unit – I anticipated no opponent fighters in this region. Oops.).
Problems: None found.

General impressions/comments:
  • · A DV here is going to be VERY hard and require a powerful imported core and a little luck. But since there’s no difference in an MV/DV, not a big deal.
    · Conscripts were a good touch – however maybe call them Hilfswilliger or something more historic to differentiate from the Russian units?
    · Surprised to see not just one but two T34/41 units in France at that time; seems logical that captures in 1942 would hard at work on the Eastern Front? But I guess there’s no suitable allied armor of equal ability to substitute for them?
    · With a Pz.IV/F2 available, next scenario I would disband the T-34/41s right away and choose a platform with upgrade potential and to let me retain experience, kills, heroes. So giving a Pz.IV/E or F, might be more realistic? Or limit access/availability of German armor to encourage using the T34s. I did notice the in+1 hero on one of them, but it's not enough to make me want to keep it if my intent is to fight a long campaign from '42 to '45.
    · The P-40 whizzing into Bayonne is very weird. It’s 500 miles from the nearest allied airbase. I would remove it from the scenario to keep it moderately accurate.
* I got a DV barely – the two southern trains were 1 strength by the time I secured them. I parked my single fighter and Ju87 over them to keep the P-40 and bombers off. The P-40 feels plain wrong and doesn’t fit the location/scenario. This was fighting with a fairly potent core I imported (see my post #2 in “St. Nazaire” for list). With a stock core, or without good skill and luck, a DV is not likely 99% of the time.

nikivdd
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by nikivdd » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:22 am

Bayonne Col diff.

Bought a Wurfrahmen and a 17cm K18 artillery.
A great scenario to play. Approached Ondres with my infantry and newly bought artillery with a tank in support to get rid of the artillery. Deployed the other tanks in the east part of the map.
Like a steamroller i took care of the opposition. The conscripts are doing a good job when placed on a bocage hex, next to a paratrooper and the two russian tanks were extremely helpfull because of their speed (which is utterly important in this case). I noticed that only the engineers are attacking the trains, could it be because they are on a hex with a british flag or a non-VH? I was only puzzled by the appearance of three allied units (1inf, 2 tanks) in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps it is better to place them with the solo units roaming about in the south. As in the previous scenario, at this time, tanks and scouts are no match for my tanks. Infantry on the other hand should be dealt with, with artillery and infantry when not in the open. The mission goals are very nice and as i recall, i did something similar, but then they were carrying oil ;). Well done!
The trains had 2, 7 and 9 str points left.

DV 7/15, 1157PP, no losses.
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by zappel » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:19 pm

Cute scenario, I like those new icons for the hex to saftey the trains. First I was suprised Bayonne was no winning hex but later I recognised for the objectives it was not necessary. The new core reinforcement was salutary but why do they look like soviets (even the recruits)? It took several turns until I realize they were core units. At this time the recruits were seriously damaged.
Last to mention: I like the historical facts. I hope there will be more informations during the game. Did they really engage captured T-34 in France?

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by ThvN » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:09 pm

Colonel level, DV on turn 10. Prestige on begin/last turn: 416/421

No imported core, upgraded the Wehrmacht infantry to Grenadier, all units got elite reinforcements but no overstrenght.

Managed to hold Labenne by switching the strenth 5 Wehr reserve with aforementioned Grenadier and than back it up by 105mm artillery and the FlammPanzer. A couple of planes and also British tanks suddenly appeared which made the fight quite intense. The tanks were a bit of a surprise as I had cleared that corner earlier, so the out-of-nowhere tanks popped up close to my recovering units which I had moved off to the side for ammo/reinforcements, nearly decimating them all. And Kamerer, that P-40 fighter plane is a bit odd, yes, but it might have had just enough range (650 miles for the P-40E Kittyhawk)? Carrier fighters such as a Hurricane would be possible as well (They were just starting with the Seafire at the time, so no Spitfires I think). A Mosquito would be appropiate, too.

One more odd thing, the British antitank guns and artillery around Bayonne did not fire a single shot during the whole game, not even when I parked units next to them, the AAA Oerlikon did work however.

The reinforcements initially made me do a double-take, conscripts with two T-34's? Did Stalin take a wrong turn somewhere? But I remembered my history lessons, and such a unit was even the last Wehrmacht unit to do battle in WW2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_uprising_on_Texel So, actually very historically correct, but two T-34's might be a bit much, maybe replacing one with a BA-64 recon would be more appropiate? Captured armoured cars were often used for security duties and patrolling occupied territories. Although the British Rolls-Royce cars where rather inappropiate, I think they would have been too obsolete to use on such an operation.

And I found an interesting feature (exploit): you can reinforce the trains. From the beginning, the two southern ones can be reinforced, so after the British attacked each turn I could (for each) buy 2 strength points for 1 prestige, the northern one is to surrounded for that trick. So I could slow down my mad rush for them, and if I wanted I could even have waited for the British saboteurs to run out of ammo before I attacked them with the relief force, but that was too low a tactic even for me.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by deadtorius » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:44 am

So far I have failed to get the trains out with either imported core or using default core.

First game out (imported core) I managed to push my way through the northern forces and was down to clearing the Brit unit in the city, and was almost through the first of the paras when the northern most train was destroyed. Its the only one you can not repair due to it being surrounded by so many enemy units, and the saboteurs managed to knock it down to 3 points and next turn it died, mission failed :oops:

Second run was with the standard core. The pioneer really helped out down south as they got through the para's much faster and the flamm Panzer even one shotted the artillery piece near the northern train. Unfortunately things were not going so well up north where my troops suffered repeated 6 or 7 step losses on 1 hit and the Matilda proved to be too touch for any of those tanks to deal with. You really need a PZ IV up there that's for sure. I was forced to fall back away from the Brits up North, while the Southern group cleared the rail lines, but it was second last turn and they did not even make it into contact by the final turn so it was a MV.
Prestige so far has been so low even in my imported core I have been forced to use normal replacements and have lost most of my Stars off their stats.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by El_Condoro » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:08 am

I'm glad the historical debrief is available! I was asking, since when did the British land tanks and troops near the Spanish border! I had never heard of Operation Chariot (last scenario) and enjoyed reading about it, but would have seriously doubted my understanding of WW2 history if this one had been real. :)

Anyhow, I cannot imagine being able to get all 3 trains out - I got 2 out and took all objectives without loss, but cannot for the life of me see how to get the other train out.

Are the train safety hexes meant to be exit hexes? My trains just sat on the hexes until the end - I expected them to disappear.

Colonel, MV - seriously struggling with prestige now...

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by ThvN » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:00 pm

El_Condoro wrote:I'm glad the historical debrief is available! I was asking, since when did the British land tanks and troops near the Spanish border! I had never heard of Operation Chariot (last scenario) and enjoyed reading about it, but would have seriously doubted my understanding of WW2 history if this one had been real. :)

Anyhow, I cannot imagine being able to get all 3 trains out - I got 2 out and took all objectives without loss, but cannot for the life of me see how to get the other train out.

Are the train safety hexes meant to be exit hexes? My trains just sat on the hexes until the end - I expected them to disappear.

Colonel, MV - seriously struggling with prestige now...

El_Condoro, which trains did you manage to save? I used a little trick to extend the lives of the two southernmost ones (buy reinforcements for them), but the northern one I was able to save more easily, since it takes the single British Saboteur next to it far longer to damage it, while the others suffer two attacks each turn instead of one. Makes a big difference.

BTW, Bayonne was Operation Myrmidon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Myrmidon, only cancelled because their ship got stuck on the way. So it was very real. But the tanks in the game were a bit unexpected, and landing those on the shore is, I think, simply not possible in reality, just like any heavy artillery pieces. But a nice challenge, I guess otherwise people ( esp. with imported cores) would just bomb the infantry away or ambush them in their trucks, and complain about it being too easy.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by El_Condoro » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:00 pm

It was the centre train that I couldn't save - it is surrounded by enemy and so can't be reinforced, which I could do for the other two. I saved the northern one by my main force, the southern one by the T-34s but couldn't save the centre train. It might just be luck - how quickly the train loses points. I think one more turn, maybe two would have saved it.

Yes, it was the tanks that stretched my imagination - the landings are turning out to be very interesting just from a historical point of view. The use of the Cambelltown was amazing at St Nazaire and I had never heard of it. WW2 brings out more interesting facts all the time. :)

Kerensky
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Kerensky » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:08 pm

Enemy tanks keep showing up because its a fact of life that the player's force always contains tanks. We can trim it down a little bit, but a force with tanks and one without tanks is never much of a contest.

Chris10
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Chris10 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:32 pm

If players do not import their core and start over with the default one this scenario can be frustrating due to the arbitrary part of the combat results...with a bit of luck the saboteurs can destroy the trains ( or one train) in the 3rd or 4th attack.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Blathergut » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:34 am

2nd attempt (General level with no imported core troops): DV on the last turn.

Managed to cut my way through to the trains and to hold in the north (barely). The challenge was getting up through the northern train city hexes and being able to take out the Brits in the north from behind. One paratroop holding a city hex there only surrendered on the last turn with 1 strength point left. Otherwise the trains would not have made it past that point.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Razz1 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:27 am

I do not have a problem with this scenario, except the British tanks that spawn. They can hit you hard and you can loos some good units which are needed for future scenario's

Okay, after Third attempt on first scenario I am moving forward, despite the loss of my Engineer and Artillery.

General
Original core
start 1729 prestige :)
DV 11/15
end 762 prestige

deducter
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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by deducter » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:59 pm

“Reinforcements has arrived!” A classic, awesome C&C reference However, why are the reinforcements Russians? Sure, the captured T-34s are okayish (I’d prefer captured Char B1s or Matilda IIs or Somuas), but conscripts, really? I’d change those to Wehr Reserve units or Italians or just standard Wehrmacht infantry or something, but it completely broke my immersion.

Since I went into this scenario blind, I didn’t deploy my forces appropriately. I had too many troops in the northern deployment area and not enough on the east bank of the river, which is what I needed to rush troops over to save the 3 trains. I was still very close to success with the reinforcements, but the British cleverly used a bomber to finish off two of my trains (each at 1 strength). I could win DV in a second playthrough with no problem.

MV 9/15.

Otherwise a fun scenario. I don’t think more British units are needed. Perhaps change the Matilda II from 10/10 to 10/5, so it can’t reinforce back to full.

Edit: The 2 T-34s are a huge injection of prestige for the player, if he chooses to disband them. Plus the conscripts are ridiculously good infantry for your core. In the hands of a skilled player, conscripts are uber, and the AI is incapable of dealing with them. I recommend changing the reinforcements to AUX, otherwise it's too huge a boost to the player's core.

Edit 2: I didn't even realize you could reinforce the trains. In that case DV is trivial to achieve.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by monkspider » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:35 am

Bayonne

Marginal victory 8/15
Imported Core
General level

I was going to say that the trains seemed rather tricky to save but I didn't realize you could reinforce them. I managed a marginal victory on turn 8, I liked the T-34s. The Conscripts were a nice touch also, I remember reading about how Russian POWs were used against the Western forces, interesting to see. I managed to save two out of three trains but the one at the bottom was lost.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by Kamerer » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:07 am

Bayonne – 2nd play, stock core

Field Marshal, DV 12/15
Begin pp: 550 End: 1,375. net: +825

New observations:
  • - Valentine II and Matilda II just “appear” on turn three. I had the Bf110 over that area on Turn 2, and they weren’t there. Restarted, turned of f.o.w. and they just appear on 3, not there turn 2.
    - The three paras to east of trains do not defend. I infiltrated tanks through them to kill saboteurs. Killed one para, brought infantry and artillery through gap. Other two stayed static, never fired or moved. Made it much easier.
    - Once I realized I could reinforce the trains ( I saw ThvN's post), it was less chaotic.

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Re: DLC 42 West 02 - Bayonne

Post by OmegaMan1 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:36 am

I continued the DLC with my imported core for this scenario. A very good challenge. I had to restart twice, but I finally got down a good starting position for my forces that allowed me to finish off the British forces attacking the trains, and then moved then slowly north as my forces cleared the way, allowing all three trains to proceed safely and thus gaining a DV. One thing I didn't realize until late in my first game is that the trains can be repaired, I might not have needed to restart twice LOL! Again, having the historical commentary at the end of the scenario was great, I had never heard of this raid and was happy to learn something about WW2. Again, a fun and challenging scenario.

BTW, my imported core consists of the following:
2x Grenadiers
2x Panzers
2x Artillery
1x BF-109
1x Ju-87

Seems to be a good mix so far.

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