Allied: Italian Offensive

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uran21
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Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by uran21 » Fri May 03, 2013 3:38 pm

Please post here your comments about this scenario.

semper_fidelis
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Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by semper_fidelis » Fri May 03, 2013 7:39 pm

An easy scenario that begins to integration combined arms into the mix with the addition of aircraft. I found it very easy with the capability of actually beating the Italians off the board, but having comply with the withdrawal orders. Maybe a couple of AA guns to keep my airpower off of the big howitzers on the back board would help.

I noted that when I flew the auxiliary Hurricane off of the board (it was unit #9), the scenario ended in "Victory" not "Triumph". This same hurricane shows up in Sidi Barani in my reserves with a silver border. Did I just pick up a free fighter at the expense of a "Triumph"?

Edit: This auxiliary fight was usable at Sidi Barani as an auxiliary unit (it has the silver boarder around the unit strength indicator). It disappears after this scenario.

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by billmv44 » Fri May 03, 2013 7:58 pm

General level, starting prestige 1675, ending 1888. Triumph on 20/20.

This wasn't too hard either, although more complex with air power added. With the constricted terrain, I was able to hold off the Italians fairly easily. They took heavy losses for each line of advancement. The allied cruiser was very useful. I probably could have held at the first line, but orders are orders. The change that makes replacements suppressed seems to be about right (so far).
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basem2502
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by basem2502 » Fri May 03, 2013 8:27 pm

I've done the first scenarios on the second to highest diff level and have to say, they are too easy. I've been able to beat the Italians hands down and at no point during the entire four scenarios, did I feel any threat or get surprised by any AI moves.

I understand that the first couple of scnearios are usally easy, but this is borderline BORING :-)

Other than that, nothing to report. No bugs, no crashing. Games works well.

I was hoping there would be a few more additions so this doesn't just feel like a rehash of PC, but I'll refrain from saying anything more until I've played the gamea a bit more

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Steakenglisch » Fri May 03, 2013 8:28 pm

There was no Challenge on this map, most time i hold the Italians with one cruiser and one Vickers supported by two Hurricanes and the Cruiser between Line 2 and 3, with all my units it would be no Problem to hold the first line. This Scen need definetly adjustment. The Italian Aircrafts were no match for my two hurricanes, and the Italian ground forces could be stopped before the entrenchment lines. Difficulty Level Oberst

omegabet
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by omegabet » Fri May 03, 2013 8:47 pm

Is it intended that the allied cruiser can also retreat? I have him now for some time and can't use him in the next scenarios (till at least Bardia)

edit: first next use in Crete
Last edited by omegabet on Fri May 03, 2013 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nikivdd
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by nikivdd » Fri May 03, 2013 9:34 pm

Colonel level
Upgrades:none
Purchases: Vickers AA, Hur I (all slots filled)
I didnt overstrength any units

This is a very easy mission. At every line of defense i could force surrender several italian units and they could never make a fist. The italians lack artillery and at least one bomber. Perhaps the italian artillery in this mission should have movement two (i can guess why they dont have trucks).My newly bought AA unit could target practice against the C.R.s. A recon and a tank received their first hero. All my tanks,artillery and recons have two stars at the end. The mission concept is very interesting and something different for a change but the italians need a buff to make this scenario somewhat challenging. All units retreated at turn 19. Ingame messages seem to be okay.

DV 19/20. No losses. 2354PP

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by zappel » Fri May 03, 2013 9:56 pm

Beta1 - Colonel - DV at turn 19
nikivdd wrote:The mission concept is very interesting and something different for a change but the italians need a buff to make this scenario somewhat challenging.
Yes, I agree, that was a new kind of scenario and objective. Sadly the GC has recently redesigned because this kind of scenario and objective would perfectly fit in the late GC '44 and '45. But now I support those who ask for harder combat, make it a little bit tougher (like Piatek in GC '39), perhaps by adding italian naval and air vessels!

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by ThvN » Fri May 03, 2013 10:09 pm

Italian Offensive

General, Triumph 20/20
Prestige before/after deployment: 1867/611
Prestige on last turn/incl. victory bonus: 1611/1716

If I understand correctly this is still a tutorial scenario, this would explain why it is quite easy to win. Many times Italian units would not attack due to my good defenses. I managed to get all units evacuated without trouble. I even purchased a towed 2-pdr AT gun for fun, which has to be my worst investment yet.

Messages were timely and clear.

I had one strange thing: At start, I wasn’t informed of the Cruiser Mk.IV tank becoming available. Maybe due to the objective message that already pops up in the deployment fase?

EDIT: forgot to mention, why are the reserves deleted after deploying? I had more core units than I could deploy, and the ones I had to leave in the reserve were gone when the 1st turn started.
Last edited by ThvN on Fri May 03, 2013 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ballacraine
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Ballacraine » Fri May 03, 2013 10:12 pm

A good point about the Cruiser MkIV, ThvN.

Balla :cool:

Tarrak
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Tarrak » Sat May 04, 2013 1:03 am

Scenario: Italian Offensive
Difficulty level: General
Outcome: Triumph on turn 19/20
Starting Prestige: 1426
End Prestige: 2158 (incl. victory reward)

I bought one Hurricane Mk.I to fill up my core at the start.

The missions is very nicely designed imho and everything with the pop windows and the pull back orders, at least when follow, seems to work perfectly. I really like the idea but there is one flaw. The Italian are present in force but they are way to weak. With a proper organized defense (infantry in the fortification hexes, tanks blocking the free areas, artillery behind placed in a way to make sure every unit is covered) they aren't attacking at all. They just march up to your line and stand there while you can just bombard them with arty and the cruiser and force surrender one after next. I am quite sure without the order to fall back i could hold them back all at the first defense line. This is partially due to the 15 strength artillery i am fielding and a proper defensive setup which, especially considering this is still part of the tutorial, not everyone will be able to pull off but i think the Italian need some buff so they at least try to attack even if they keep dying. Maybe even just script the AI to attack no matter what the odds are, even if futile this will at least look like an offensive.

As some already mentioned before i didn't get the window informing me that a new tank type is available as well.

P.S: I will replay the scenario and check if the triggers work properly as well if i disobey the orders and keep defending without falling back. Will report back later.

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Kamerer » Sat May 04, 2013 2:00 am

4) Italian Off. – beta 1

Level: Field Marshal
Prestige: Begin: 1350 (750 after purchases). End: 1,650. Net: +900.
Result: DV 20/20
Replacement policy: sent out everything +0/10, a few were still over from prior scenario.

Core Changes:
  • Disbanded: None
    Purchased:
    • 1x Infantry + Bren
      1x Hurricane
Problems:
  • • Non-deployed reserves are lost. On opening next scenario (Taranto), I noticed my recon unit was missing. It was in my core at the start of this scenario, and undeployed.
General impressions/comments:
  • • At turn 19, I had destroyed all visible Italian units. I checked “view battlefield” afterwards and saw arty, at, infantry placed well back. To make the retreat more credible, perhaps add more advancing Italian units.
    • The Flaco biplanes did some surprising damage to my core and the aux Hurricane (mainly the aux one, of course). Seemed a bit unrealistic.
    • Triggers, map all seemed to work smoothly.

LostAgain
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by LostAgain » Sat May 04, 2013 2:12 am

Playing FM. ANOTHER snooze-fest. Although ordered to retreat I could have, (and did) hold the forward lines until almost the very end. This ALMOST resulted in losing units as I was attempting to give all of my units te most experience possible so I just used my pair of recon vehicles exclusively for "retreating' to new positions. The amount, type, and aggressiveness of the Italians were all regretably inadequate. After Moscow, Stalingrad, and the defense of Berlin I could have played out ALL of the scenarios so far in my sleep! The ONLY thing I can say that appeals to me about this campaign to date is the ability to over strength units.

A suggestion, in the "Western" PC campaigns and indeed in the recent PC upgrade I noticed that Heroes were not limited to only one ability and I'd hoped to see that continued, but sadly it seems there's been a return to new heroes being limited to only one, and I'd like to suggest this be revisited as I'm sure I'm not the only one that found it positively exhilarating when a unit hero came wuth multiple abilities.

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Tarrak » Sat May 04, 2013 2:16 am

I tried to ignore the fall back order and just kept the line at the first defensive line. There is no mention about me doing anything wrong. The scripts just keep ordering me to fall back line as if everything were ok. At the end obviously it ends with a lose but during the mission there is no feedback the player is doing something wrong.

The order are clear and everything but i think there should be some script to check if the player actually really took control of the proper position and end the game prematurely with a loss.

Razz1
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Razz1 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:01 am

General
start 2082
end 1613

bought fighter during game.

I did not deploy all my troops. Then I could not re-deploy them later.
Problem.: I can not meet the criteria for a DV as I can not buy enough units to reach nine. Therefore I can not retreat nine units. Max I can retreat is 8, if I buy as many units as slots allow.

I would suggest a bomber to enter along with the CR 42 fighter. Then after the CR 42 is killed, have the second CR 42 enter the map.

With that bomber, it will entice the player to retreat sooner.

It is easy to hold the line. In fact I want to attack, but can not due to game objectives.
Killing many units.

Also, nice to have the switch on the 25lb artillery as that was historical.

However: BUG when you switch to AT mode unit can move as far as transport AND sound file is from transport.

So, I had one slot left and just for the Hell of it I bought another fighter. I now have 8 core units. I ended up with a DV!!! (Triumph)

The victory conditions counted the naval ship even though it is not a core unit. Either that or there are other conditions that are incorrect. I would have to check the file.

Another funny thing is that the script told me to hold objectives on turn 18. I already held all flags for several turns. That is confusing. good thing I did not withdraw all or most of my troops. I had to come back and reoccupy one VH on turn 18 or else I would have not met the conditions.

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Longasc » Sat May 04, 2013 1:31 pm

Italian Offensive

Level: General
Start Prestige: 2103
End Prestige: 1412
Result: Triump, 19/20
Bought/Upgraded/Losses: 25 pounder artillery, upgraded all tanks to Mk IV. No losses.


First impression, to be continued: Why the hell has this map so much WATER for... nothing?
I quite liked this organized retreat. I would like some more emphasis on units getting LOST if they are not evacuated by turn 20.
This mechanic should be explained better.
I don't know how to make the scenario a bit more challenging as the Italian attack is not so overwhelming that people actually have to retreat.
The Italian units lack punch and Cruiser Mk IV totally stop them dead.
While all this above sounds quite negative, it is a fun and interesting scenario to play!

* Again one deployment slot less than core units.
* Briefings seem OK!
* Sidenote: First units got medals and heroes.

Razz1
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Razz1 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:04 pm

Change the message and add: retreat to Victory hexes in rear AND occupy.

Then set trigger where all VH's are not occupied give AI a M11-39 at strength 11 plus 100 prestige.
In addition, give the AI 15 prestige for each VH not occupied.
For one of the hexes, if no occupied, you could add a destroyer strength 12, experience 125.
That should be enough to harass the player.

I sent a unit to the right and captured the first three VH's. Then latter put a unit in each hex.

Lord knows what would have happened if I stayed on the front line. I probably would have pushed the AI off the map.

So a little more incentive to retreat. Once the AI starts moving all hell breaks loose and it is pretty easy for the AI to catch a unit and kill it.

uran21
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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by uran21 » Sun May 05, 2013 8:06 am

Thanks to all for the feedback so far. While still a tutorial a rather complex one. It adds naval and air units to the force, orders are strict but it is always complex to perform fighting withdrawal. Also it adds texture of variety to the campaign in just right moment.

Actually there are nine deployment hexes in this one, eight for land troops and one for a fighter. This is incentive to buy a fighter. Not sure how much effective it is. For some reason I thought to give availability of landing crafts as well in the case some of the units gets surrounded and blocked in a port so it can pull out. This gave me an idea to place exit zone at sea as well and than I accidentally noticed I could retreat and keep the ship. So I liked it and leave it this way making it available for deploy at Crete. What do you think about possible model to use auxiliary ships trough campaign this way?

You were not informed about availability of Cruiser Mk.IV tank because of the model used to restrict equipment in early scenarios. It was done trough use of theatres. Besides "Europe" and "Africa" theatres there are several more now named buy the number that excludes equipment in the e-file. Info messages are based on availability dates of equipment and those are unchanged.

I do not think that incentive to retreat should be based on the fact that losing a unit is very easy (at least not in this scenario) but some more sharp exchange of fire would be in order. First of all none of this scenarios was designed and tested with new overstrength policy on mind. So 15 strength units are a bit of overkill. Despite that scenario is still very forgiving and let me tell you way. I had a privilege to observe people who never played wargames play this campaign to this particular scenario. I noticed something very interesting.
People new to this kind of stuff tend to keep wounded units fighting for much longer. So even if Italians are to weak player will attack them and lose couple of strength points in the process and they would do it again until at some point their strength drops so Italians could hurt them. You would be surprised how many units were lost in this scenario. Those people do not understand (jet) that trucks are vulnerable, that artillery should not be kept in front line and all the other things that seem so obvious to experienced players.
It is not that those people are not capable of learning, they are but as every particular segment of the game, when isolated, is fairly simple when someone needs to catch everything at once some lessons will be learned faster than the others. Of course this beginning of campaign is their learning ground and they should have enough space and time to feel comfortable.

Nevertheless some changes to balance are open for discussion and I need to adjust scripting a little bit. Complex scenarios have tendency to broke much faster. But more about it later.

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Kerensky » Sun May 05, 2013 8:41 am

Just keep in mind that auxiliary units preserved through exit hexes will need additional exit hexes to any future scenario they show up in. This can quickly become cumbersome, especially when expanded beyond a naval unit with extremely limited deployment options.

Another concern is disbanding these carry over auxiliaries for significant prestige injections. As I recall, prestige value of ships is extremely high.

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Re: Allied: Italian Offensive

Post by Rudankort » Sun May 05, 2013 8:46 am

Kerensky wrote:Another concern is disbanding these carry over auxiliaries for significant prestige injections. As I recall, prestige value of ships is extremely high.
This probably could be fixed directly in the engine: disbanding aux units should not give any prestige to the player. These units do not "belong" to the player, so why would he get prestige for them?

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