Norwegians Rail on 1st Turn??

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Blathergut
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Norwegians Rail on 1st Turn??

Post by Blathergut » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:03 pm

Same game as the French question.

Germans declare war on Norway and land two INF plus a paradrop adj. to Oslo.

In the following Norwegian turn (their 1st of the invasion) the GAR in the other locations were able to rail in to Oslo.

I thought there was a 1-turn delay in rail capacity for this?

_Augustus_
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Re: Norwegians Rail on 1st Turn??

Post by _Augustus_ » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:29 pm

Heya,
Blathergut wrote:Same game as the French question.

Germans declare war on Norway and land two INF plus a paradrop adj. to Oslo.

In the following Norwegian turn (their 1st of the invasion) the GAR in the other locations were able to rail in to Oslo.

I thought there was a 1-turn delay in rail capacity for this?
Fair weather in Central Europe and bad weather in Northern Europe? --> Landings are OK but Norway doesn't suffer the surprise DoW EFF loss penalty AND can use its rail right away.


218. GSv2.00aq-Hotfix (April 17, 2011).

Fixed a bug regarding units who normally are surprised, but doesn't
suffer a surprise loss due to winter. In that case the DoW message
wasn’t showing. This is fixed and the DOW message now shows.

Regarding rail movement the rule is that on the surprise turn you can't
use rail movement. The point is that if you're attacked during a turn
when the DoW'ed country's capital is in mud or winter weather then the
country will NOT suffer any surprise loss. That meant that rail
movement is not hampered. So if you attack a country during bad
weather that country gets rail move immediately on their turn. This is
an even bigger reason to not DoW during winter. The only country
really affected by this is Yugoslavia. Norway and Sweden needs to be
attacked during good weather so you can land the transp


I did mentioned this to Alec recently and hopefully the DoW section of the manual will make a clearer note of the consequences of DoWing in bad weather in the future.

Sincerely,

_augustus_

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:36 pm

Except I had fair weather or I wouldn't have been able to invade.

Or is the weather line at Oslo? So the two hexes south of Oslo can be Fair but Oslo Mud/Winter?

_Augustus_
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Post by _Augustus_ » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:48 pm

Blathergut wrote:Except I had fair weather or I wouldn't have been able to invade.

Or is the weather line at Oslo? So the two hexes south of Oslo can be Fair but Oslo Mud/Winter?
The central zone (which determines the is it fair or rough _seas_ and can you land or not) was fair and Norway(inlcuding the two hexes you mention) was not-fair. You can invade from a fair weather sea to not-fair clear hex AFAIK. Oslo(which was in not-fair weather) determines that the country invaded doesn't get the surprise DoW penalties.

That's how I undrestand the mechanics of this,

_augustus_

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:51 pm

Alright. The Norwegian land hexes were in Winter. Seas were calm. So that is why they could rail...there was no surprise.

I went through the GS2 manual, but I can't find anywhere where it says what weather conditions allow/disallow invasions.

I see in the chart it is not possible if the seas are rough. Is this the only condition? Or does the weather of the hex I'm landing in also affect whether or not I can invade?

Finally, are calm/rough seas dependent upon land weather or are they separate?

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Post by _Augustus_ » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:05 pm

Blathergut wrote:Alright. The Norwegian land hexes were in Winter. Seas were calm. So that is why they could rail...there was no surprise.
Check.
I went through the GS2 manual, but I can't find anywhere where it says what weather conditions allow/disallow invasions.

Page 102-103:
An invasion is the landing of a unit in an enemy controlled hex. This can
only occur if the invasion transport is in calm seas regardless of the
weather in the hex being invaded.


Page 103:
"Weather affects the ability to unload transports or conduct invasions.
During rough seas (i.e., mud, winter or severe winter) transports can only be
unloaded from ports and only into cities, clear or forest hexes. They cannot
unload into rough or mountain hexes. Similarly, units invading can only
invade from friendly ports and into cities, clear or forest hexes."

I see in the chart it is not possible if the seas are rough. Is this the only condition? Or does the weather of the hex I'm landing in also affect whether or not I can invade?

Finally, are calm/rough seas dependent upon land weather or are they separate?
The central Europe weather determines the seas and Norway land hexes are in Northern Zone. So it's possible to have fair seas(and hence possible to land and invade) despite Norway's weather being not-fair.

All logical results following what it says in the manual. The details are just somewhat burried in text.

_augustus_

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:08 pm

Thanks for helping to clear it up!

_Augustus_
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Post by _Augustus_ » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:20 pm

Oh and it's a good idea to remember NOT to start Barbarossa when the weather in German held Poland is fair but it's still winter in Moscow.... :-D

BTW since I have been a member of the beta group but a week. What's the logic behind the "no surprise if Capital in bad weather when DoWed on" rule? Just to make people not to invade during winter because that's not what normally has happened in history? Or is there something more particular that this rules aims to emulate? I'm just sincerely curious. I can live with the rule, but I think it easily creates problems like Blathergut is having or "ruining" one's Barbarossa if one doesn't spot the details.

schwerpunkt
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Post by schwerpunkt » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:01 pm

_Augustus_ wrote:BTW since I have been a member of the beta group but a week. What's the logic behind the "no surprise if Capital in bad weather when DoWed on" rule? Just to make people not to invade during winter because that's not what normally has happened in history? Or is there something more particular that this rules aims to emulate? I'm just sincerely curious. I can live with the rule, but I think it easily creates problems like Blathergut is having or "ruining" one's Barbarossa if one doesn't spot the details.
The rationale that was agreed a while back was that an invasion during poor weather will be slower than in clear weather, thereby reducing the pace of advance and the resultant shock and disorganisation that it causes. For France and Barbarossa, in particular, it was the pace of the German advance that unhinged the russian defence as the Germans kept popping up in numbers in unexpected places deep within deployment areas. This unnerved russian comanders and troops and made it difficult to coordinate effective counterattacks as they tended to be undertaken "everywhere" rather than at specific points in a concerted fashion.

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