Penetration/Armor role in classic PzC

[PeteMitchell]

I would like a Mod, totally vanilla, with the information as real as possible.
But this takes a long time and a good team to achieve it.
I have been seeing some comments about panzer corps 2 and it seems that the data is not so accurate, there is discontent, old players prefer Pzc 1.

+1

[lennis29]

I would like the whole community to participate, to create a complete archive.
I'm not a great connoisseur of the PzC1 rules and I really feed off of your comments and therefore work on mine.
This is an example of how I work on the data and how I draw my conclusions, the table is from 1939 to 1943.

- Schützen / wehr Inf: The regular infantry unit, should have (+ Ammo than others and Forced Marches, a movement bonus), as a penalty for Germany's condition in scarce transport, then it should not have any transport assigned in throughout the war, or by 1943 assigning transport horses (Mov. 5) to simulate that these are the ones that carry the ammunition and its material.
- SE Schützen / SE Infantry: Amount of ammunition the same as the Wehrmacht, but with SA +1 and Motorized.
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Kavallerie / Fahrer / Reiter: Regular Infantry trained on horses for reconnaissance assignments and rapid mobilization, Assuming their GD is 4, I can imagine they are Battalions, (Regular Infantry (Cost 127) + Horse (Cost 30)) Their value would be of $ 157, as is (Regular Inf.) its SA we put it in 4 and we create a standard of 6 in the GD., so we increase its GD to 6.
Now, we can create formulas to add and subtract points to the value of each unit.
for example 10 points. As we subtract 1 from SA and increase 2 from GD, we can add 10 to its final value and this unit would have a cost of $ 167.
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Gebirgsjäger: Trained for place in mountains and long distances.
(Looking at his 3-unit icon, I can see the leader with some binoculars, and the other two with Kar 98. and one of these with a telescope sight.) which I assume is for long-range combat, so to simulate his space training , since this unit should have the highest amount of (INI) initiative than all the other infantry units, above the parachutes that were specialized for DC combat.
From my point of view to the Gebirgsjäger, I increase the Ini to 4, lower the SA to 4, and if I apply the formula of 10 points, it should cost 147. As is a unit of Mnt. I took away the transport and later in 1943, I also assigned the horses.

[lennis29]

Organization HA vainilla

[lennis29]

I have been working on a file to organize the data based on information provided by Yrfrin, Guille and Phcas, but as I said before, this must be a team to finish it.
I put an image and a file in Excell, in .RAR (sheet3) to help me finish.

[guille1434]

Hello Lennis!

I think that the ideas your are proposing here are very interesting, and, if we add efforts, we may compile an historical, balanced, and accurate equipment table file, with "constant" formulae for the most important stats values of the different units...

Some comments, made separately in order not to confuse and mix subjects:

- I like the idea of the "forced march" infantry units. May be it would be possible to add a "forced march" switch to infantry units in which they get one more movement (mov = 4 for regular infantry and 3 for HW/grenadiers) but also in this state to give only passive (negative) attack values. This way, when marching "at full speed" infantry units will not be able to make attacks, only to defend, but this switch would be useful to move non-motorized infantry units around the battlefield. Alternatively, in order not to make abuse of the "switch" system, the "marching mode" could be added as a new transport unit type (with cost = 0, or, if zero not possible, cost = 1 prestige point). In this case, if the unit has to be air transported, the gamer would not lose the prestige value of the transport unit when it has to "leave truck" before air embarking the infantry unit. In both cases (the march mode added by means of a switch or by means of a transport unit), the icon would consist of the soldiers figures marching instead of being in firing/combat poses.

- Also, it would be nice to implement formulae for the different stats values present in the equipment table. As Yrfin, for example, has made with the HA and GD values, or Phcas and his team mates already did with fuel and speed values. You started with some ideas in this direction when you assigned 10 prestige points to each of initiative and attack points, for example. On top of all that, it would be nice to calculate a "global formula" with would allow us to calculate the final prestige points cost of each unit factoring in the different "weight" of ammo, fuel, attack, defense, etc... stats values to calculate the unit´s final prestige points cost. I think it would be possible (just "would", because I am not sure if a balanced formula could be implemented) to start by "reverse engineering" the values of some "average" German units (I am almost sure that game developers started making the numbers of the equipment file calculating German units values, because they are positioned first in the equipment file). For exmple, we can take regular German Infanterie (cost 127 prestige) and calculate back from this total value how many prestige points would amount each of the different stats values. In the same fashion, we would need to try this method by taking a "sample" unit for tank class (for example, the Pz IIIE, to name but one), artillery class, etc... May be, after some "number crunching" we can implement a more or less "universal" prestige cost formula.

[guille1434]

By the way, not directly related to the "prestige cost per stat point" standarized formula, a long, long time ago I proposed a unit number "nomenclature" to make every equipment table backwards compatible with all the official original game content and DLCs. Now, may be it is too late, as any player or modder would have made its own "self-numbered" equipment table, but if you re interested, I will attach the files here. By the way, this equipment file is also compatible with all the additional content made by Nikivdd, so it covers a lot of the campaign nd scenarios playable with PzCorps. There was a forum member (I don´t remember his name now) who uploaded a mod called "Amulet" which used this unit numeration "standard". Of course, I kept using that numeration standard for my personal equipment tble, of course.

Also, embedded in the excel unit table, you will find some formulae relative to artillery firing range relation to in game hex range for that class of units.

[lennis29]

Mr. Guille
Thanks for the opinions and collaboration of him.
That file looks a lot like the one shared by captainjack, I think he took that same as a base.

The legendary PzC PHCAS scholar, provided this information a long time ago.

/// Artillery ///
Speed
Caliber 0-37mm = 2
Caliber 38-150mm = 1
Caliber 151mm and higher = 0

Fire Range
0-4.999m = 1
5.000-9.999m = 2
10.000-14.999m = 3
15.000-19.999m = 4
20.000-24.999m = 5
25.000m and higher = 6

[lennis29]

What I had in mind was to modify the vanilla file (equipment.pzeqp) but without adding new units, with the aim that this is the basic file for further modifications by each user who wants to modify to their liking.
In my personal opinion and I don't know if someone else has happened to him, referring to GC (1939-1945), when I have a wide variety of units, I simply stop using the least feasible ones and invest the prestige in the best ones. In late 1943 or 1944, the game starts to bore me and it kind of loses its meaning.
I don't know how, but together we can find a way that by 1943, it is feasible and viable to use the Pz III, IV and StuG III.
That they are more profitable in relation to quality / price.
That the 10.5 cm LeFH 18 artillery is the most common and economical to use above all others, as well as the 20 mm Flak and the 7.5 cm Pak 40.
So to achieve this goal, I think the best thing would be to modify the original equipment.pzeqp.

[cw58]

- I like the idea of the "forced march" infantry units. May be it would be possible to add a "forced march" switch to infantry units in which they get one more movement (mov = 4 for regular infantry and 3 for HW/grenadiers) but also in this state to give only passive (negative) attack values. This way, when marching "at full speed" infantry units will not be able to make attacks, only to defend, but this switch would be useful to move non-motorized infantry units around the battlefield. Alternatively, in order not to make abuse of the "switch" system, the "marching mode" could be added as a new transport unit type (with cost = 0, or, if zero not possible, cost = 1 prestige point). In this case, if the unit has to be air transported, the gamer would not lose the prestige value of the transport unit when it has to "leave truck" before air embarking the infantry unit. In both cases (the march mode added by means of a switch or by means of a transport unit), the icon would consist of the soldiers figures marching instead of being in firing/combat poses.

I also like this idea. Rather than using a switch, I think that the transport mode would make gameplay smoother; not having to switch between modes but using the "forced_march" when needed. It would require making a dedicated transport unit not available to other units/classes and would need a prestige cost of at least 1; IIRC, 0 doesn't work. And to avoid losing it when embarking on air transport, just make that "forced_march" able to transport by air, as well as sea & rail.

[guille1434]

- I like the idea of the "forced march" infantry units. May be it would be possible to add a "forced march" switch to infantry units in which they get one more movement (mov = 4 for regular infantry and 3 for HW/grenadiers) but also in this state to give only passive (negative) attack values. This way, when marching "at full speed" infantry units will not be able to make attacks, only to defend, but this switch would be useful to move non-motorized infantry units around the battlefield. Alternatively, in order not to make abuse of the "switch" system, the "marching mode" could be added as a new transport unit type (with cost = 0, or, if zero not possible, cost = 1 prestige point). In this case, if the unit has to be air transported, the gamer would not lose the prestige value of the transport unit when it has to "leave truck" before air embarking the infantry unit. In both cases (the march mode added by means of a switch or by means of a transport unit), the icon would consist of the soldiers figures marching instead of being in firing/combat poses.

I also like this idea. Rather than using a switch, I think that the transport mode would make gameplay smoother; not having to switch between modes but using the "forced_march" when needed. It would require making a dedicated transport unit not available to other units/classes and would need a prestige cost of at least 1; IIRC, 0 doesn't work. And to avoid losing it when embarking on air transport, just make that "forced_march" able to transport by air, as well as sea & rail.

The more I thought about this subject, the more I liked the idea to implement the "forced march" in the form of an attached organic transport to the unit, but now that I learned that organic transport unit can be made air transportable, there is no doubt, the subject is closed for me. Thanks Cw!

By the way, I have a question for you, Cw58 (or anyone who can answer)... What happens if you attach an air transportable (but not parachute drop capable) organic transport unit to a paradrop capable unit? Will the para unit loose it paradrop ability (becoming just an air transportable unit) or the attached trasport unit wil inherit the "para" trait? May be some knowledgeable forum member will be able to tell me...
Thanks in advance!

[Kolaris]

I feel that prestige cost shouldn't only reflect the capabilities of the unit, but also the historical abundance and production cost.

Gun penetration and relative armour thickness are good starting points for stats, but there's still room to consider other small modifiers - things like silhouette for ground defense, abundance of radio equipment or turret traverse for initiative, rangefinding and optic quality for attack values.

[lennis29]

I feel that prestige cost shouldn't only reflect the capabilities of the unit, but also the historical abundance and production cost.

Gun penetration and relative armour thickness are good starting points for stats, but there's still room to consider other small modifiers - things like silhouette for ground defense, abundance of radio equipment or turret traverse for initiative, rangefinding and optic quality for attack values.

Thanks for your comment.
you can create an example and share it to explore your idea.
thanks.

[lennis29]

Ideas for forced marches is to change the type of movement to 9 or 7, to go through the tests, assign transport horses for the matter of supplies, but these run out after 2 shifts, so I do the calculation for assign (FUEL) so that it only allows 2 turns of 5 steps and the rest of 3.

[lennis29]

I would like to see opinions from McGuba, nikivdd, PHCAS, among others.
Many want a last PzC update, with many new things and improvements, I hope the developers will pay attention, but I think we can create equipment.pzeqp.

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=100067

[lennis29]

@guille1434
I did not find the standard formula to assign the cost of infantry units, I came to think that it was 10 points.
I work with the Grenadiers and Fallschirmjäger, but not with the Gebirgsjäger.

[lennis29]

I'm doing this test for the Forced March.
Assign 8 to 12 Max Fuel.
This allows 2 to 3 turns with 4-step forced marches, but the unit reflects exhaustion, then you can switch and continue with the normal 3 steps without incurring an exhaustion penalty.
Type of movement assigned 11, as they are part of the blitzkrieg, they have no penalty when crossing rivers and streams.
Thinking of movement Type 11, it can be assigned Pz 1 A, B and Pz IIC, to simulate the speed of the Blitzkrieg.

[lennis29]

Anti-tank organization
- Towed Units: Ambushes Option (CAMO)
- Marder series .: Support units (Guille suggestion), option class 4
- StuG III Series: For defensive purposes
- Units with the Panzer IV Chassis: For attack purposes.
- Heavy tank destroyer battalions
/// Hetzer.: camo
/// Nashorm.: +1 Rng (simulate ranged attack without taking damage.)

[captainjack]

Weak late war AT units like the hetzer can be made a bit more useful by giving them recon move. Jump in, fire and get out. It's still rubbish but is now a bit useful.
For towed guns I agree that 2 move is good for increasing usefulness, but calibre wasn't a great guide to mobility. The French 25 and the German 37 were noted for being light eniugh to be easily repositioned and quite mobile while when manhandled by the gun crew. The 37 nofors and 2 pounder were heavier and not known for ease of movement. So I'm a bit more selective with 2 move for AT guns (I should probably give the Russian 45 2 move as it was essentially the PaK37mm with a rebore. I do give 37mm infantry guns and the german 75mm 2 move as well. The 37 because it was light and portable, the 75 ig because it's no use with 1 move.
Also, my equipment file is based on nico's one, so it should look familiar.

[lennis29]

Weak late war AT units like the hetzer can be made a bit more useful by giving them recon move. Jump in, fire and get out. It's still rubbish but is now a bit useful.
For towed guns I agree that 2 move is good for increasing usefulness, but calibre wasn't a great guide to mobility. The French 25 and the German 37 were noted for being light eniugh to be easily repositioned and quite mobile while when manhandled by the gun crew. The 37 nofors and 2 pounder were heavier and not known for ease of movement. So I'm a bit more selective with 2 move for AT guns (I should probably give the Russian 45 2 move as it was essentially the PaK37mm with a rebore. I do give 37mm infantry guns and the german 75mm 2 move as well. The 37 because it was light and portable, the 75 ig because it's no use with 1 move.
Also, my equipment file is based on nico's one, so it should look familiar.

Thanks for your comment, the idea of adding recognition movement to the Hetzer, it would be good to think of all the Marders, what do you think about that?

[lennis29]

Hi PzC community
Equipment Beta 1.
all changes are recorded at the end of each unit.
Still to be edited, the mechanized part of the anti-aircraft and the Luftwaffe.
It is totally vanilla, so it can be tasted without problems.

Penetration and armor data are not included, @Guille and YrFrin are the experts in that area.
They can edit and add their ideas to polish and define a joint work by everyone.